Chances: 165 LSAT + 3.93 GPA Forum

[leggy1T1]

Hi guys,

I would value any input regarding my chances for the following schools:

- Cornell
- Michigan
- Boalt
- Virginia
- Stanford (reach)

I'm a Canadian, caucasian, female. Concert-level pianist & teach piano part-time during the school year. Commute 4h to University in Toronto, volunteer at conservation area, have a research fellowship in a multidisciplinary humanities institute at U of T (6 undergrads chosen).

My GPA would be higher but I did pre-med for 1.5 years before switching to History major & American Studies minor. Note also that U of T is only on a 4.0 scale (nothing greater). I am *likely* to be accepted for an M.Phil in British History at Cambridge (England) next year, so planning to defer law for start in 2012.

Thoughts?

Thanks in advance!

[03121202698008]

I'd retake the LSAT. A few points would give you a much better shot.

[goodolgil]

A lot of people with similar #s got into UVA by ED'ing.

[joeshmo39]

You have a chance at Cornell, but it's not overwhelming. Everything else is a reject without ED. Maybe some shot at Boalt, maybe.

[03121202698008]

I'd retake the LSAT. A few points would give you a much better shot.

To put this in perspective...I was a 3.92/168 with a masters and extensive military experience.

My results:
- Cornell - Deferred from EA, never got a reply
- Michigan - In w/ $10K/year (Michigan is very pro-military...I'm not sure I would have been in otherwise.)
- Boalt - Didn't apply
- Virginia - Deferred indefinitely after I didn't agree to become an ED app
- Stanford (reach) - Didn't apply

[Patriot1208]

Ya, you may not get into any of those schools without an LSAT retake. Definitely retake to make sure you get into one of those schools.

[vanwinkle]

I don't think Canadian GPAs "count" in the sense that they get reported on USNWR rankings, so you might lose a chunk of the benefit of that awesome GPA. Ordinarily I'd say that you could get into UVA by EDing, but I'm not sure it would work here. (If anyone familiar with Canadian applicants can correct me or at least provide more useful data, that'd be appreciated.)

You need to retake the LSAT and reapply.

[leggy1T1]

To all: thanks for your advice!

I've been debating an October re-take, but my parents are very pro-GRE and have no idea what the LSAT means. I'll definitely sign up now!

[sbalive]

A few things:

1. A Canadian GPA does count for US News rankings, at least in the sense that you get an official LSAC GPA that is for all intents and purposes exactly like a U.S. GPA. It's not like a foreign GPA. Canadians will get in where their GPA/LSAT combo will get them.

2. Yeah, retake if you want a T14.

3. But, more importantly, really think about your motivation for going to law school in the U.S. It is much cheaper to go to law school in Canada in almost every case (especially if you need private loans in the US). With your current GPA+LSAT+softs, you are in a very good position to get in. Canadian law school admissions are much less LSAT focused for one thing. Outside of the very top law schools in the US - and I'm talking T6 if not better - there aren't really going to be that many more opportunities coming out of a US law school than any Canadian law school if you do well. Canadian law school rankings are relatively flat, especially once you get out of the big 3, and even then, it's all even. Not the same here. And, without an eye-popping LSAT, there's no way you're getting substantial enough financial aid at a T6 to outweigh the cost differential.

By studying law here, you'd pretty much be making a decision to spend a fairly long time working and living in the States. Do you want to make that commitment? Have you lived in the US for a substantial amount of time? It's not like you can't move back to Canada, but it will be unnecessarily hard and why would you have bothered to go to a US law school at that point? If you're interested in academia and being exposed to the US legal system (you do have that American Studies interest) then why not get a law degree in Canada and then come to the US to do a LLM? Lots of Canadians do that.

[leggy1T1]

A few things:

1. A Canadian GPA does count for US News rankings, at least in the sense that you get an official LSAC GPA that is for all intents and purposes exactly like a U.S. GPA. It's not like a foreign GPA. Canadians will get in where their GPA/LSAT combo will get them.

2. Yeah, retake if you want a T14.

3. But, more importantly, really think about your motivation for going to law school in the U.S. It is much cheaper to go to law school in Canada in almost every case (especially if you need private loans in the US). With your current GPA+LSAT+softs, you are in a very good position to get in. Canadian law school admissions are much less LSAT focused for one thing. Outside of the very top law schools in the US - and I'm talking T6 if not better - there aren't really going to be that many more opportunities coming out of a US law school than any Canadian law school if you do well. Canadian law school rankings are relatively flat, especially once you get out of the big 3, and even then, it's all even. Not the same here. And, without an eye-popping LSAT, there's no way you're getting substantial enough financial aid at a T6 to outweigh the cost differential.

By studying law here, you'd pretty much be making a decision to spend a fairly long time working and living in the States. Do you want to make that commitment? Have you lived in the US for a substantial amount of time? It's not like you can't move back to Canada, but it will be unnecessarily hard and why would you have bothered to go to a US law school at that point? If you're interested in academia and being exposed to the US legal system (you do have that American Studies interest) then why not get a law degree in Canada and then come to the US to do a LLM? Lots of Canadians do that.

Thanks for your thoughts! I'll try to explain my motivation:

1./2. I think I have the potential to get a higher score; to be honest, I started this process in May thinking that I'd do a PhD but after subsequent research my interests have changed. I studied only 3 weeks for the LSAT by myself, so with a course and a more effective study period I think I could reasonably hit 170.

3. My mom's British, my dad's American, and my family live in California or B.C. ... I don't really feel a strong tie to Canada, it's simply where I grew up because my dad's a prof and he was offered a tenure position here. I could see myself living in Canada, Britain, Europe, or the US when I graduate.

I applied to Princeton/Cornell for undergrad and was accepted but my parents didn't want to invest in my first degree (understandably), so they've committed to the next round, wherever it is.

T3 in Canada is U of T, Osgoode, and McGill. Both Osgoode/UofT are in Toronto and I'd like to get out of the city after 4 years here. I'm okay with McGill, but not super keen on a large setting, so I'd prefer a smaller town but the rankings are lower for those schools.

Also, what are your thoughts on practicing internationally coming from a US or Canadian school? At the moment this is the field that most interests me, hence the application to Cornell.

Thanks- hope this explains some.

[sbalive]

Oh, just noticed the above reply... yeah, I had similar motivations (i.e. no great ties to Canada). re: practicing internationally, you definitely want to shoot for T6 schools if possible -- you can do it from lower down, but you need a stellar record / some sort of pre-existing connections to work it out. Columbia has a JD/LLB that is a good fit for someone who has joint British-American ties -- it's sort of overkill, but it provides a lot of flexibility. I'd definitely shoot for a higher LSAT, and at that point with a strong LSAT-GPA combo you should be able to pick up Columbia or even Harvard.

I do think it's a bad idea for Canadians to get hung up on "T3 schools." In Canada all the law schools are really strong and generally regional, but because they're cheaper, getting an LLM is feasible for people who want to do a broader range of things. Also, if you do well at any regional-level school, generally national opportunities open up. I'm sure Americans would be envious if they found out that the # of available seats at Canadian law schools is pretty well controlled to natural market size. But, your interests sound like you're better suited for an elite U.S. law school anyway. Good luck!

[leggy1T1]

Oh, just noticed the above reply... yeah, I had similar motivations (i.e. no great ties to Canada). re: practicing internationally, you definitely want to shoot for T6 schools if possible -- you can do it from lower down, but you need a stellar record / some sort of pre-existing connections to work it out. Columbia has a JD/LLB that is a good fit for someone who has joint British-American ties -- it's sort of overkill, but it provides a lot of flexibility. I'd definitely shoot for a higher LSAT, and at that point with a strong LSAT-GPA combo you should be able to pick up Columbia or even Harvard.

I do think it's a bad idea for Canadians to get hung up on "T3 schools." In Canada all the law schools are really strong and generally regional, but because they're cheaper, getting an LLM is feasible for people who want to do a broader range of things. Also, if you do well at any regional-level school, generally national opportunities open up. I'm sure Americans would be envious if they found out that the # of available seats at Canadian law schools is pretty well controlled to natural market size. But, your interests sound like you're better suited for an elite U.S. law school anyway. Good luck!

So you would say choose a T6 over Cornell? Even with its International focus?
I hadn't seen the Columbia JD/LLB, so I'll look into it. I've heard Harvard has a super competitive environment, and I'm not sure it's a great fit, but I guess it's reach is fairly stellar

If I do an M.Phil in Britain I'm not sure I'm going to have the desire to follow it with a JD and an LLM, so that's why I'm sort of thinking American law schools at this point... thx for the good luck!

[lawls]

For "international" you pretty well always want the higher ranked school. Columbia will definitely provide you with more international opportunities than Cornell.

Also, if you are retaking, I would suggest thinking about the December rather than the October exam. 2 months isn't a ton of time, and if you aren't scoring where you need to be, the time frame for cancellations isn't very great (speaking as someone who had to delay his LSAT...). Most schools don't care about retakes, but Stanford and some of the other elite schools do--so you want to make sure you nail your second attempt.

You can still go ahead an apply this cycle for schools (have them ready as soon as your score comes in), but if your cycle doesn't go well--your apps will be slightly late--you have a whole second cycle to apply, hopefully while enrolled in a prestigious MPhil. Since you won't be sitting on your hands, you'll be a more competitive applicant the second time around, and schools won't hold it against you. But maybe you get a great school first time around and can get the deferral you want. My main point is that increasing your LSAT score takes a lot of time. It sounds like you have a good baseline, but if you want places like Columbia, you might need 3-4 months prep to get the score you need (again, speaking as someone who took 4 months to get to the point where I could get the score I needed...).

Edit to add: The date for changing your write date is September 19th, if you sign up for the October exam. So still some time if you prep and don't feel ready, but still worth keeping the above in mind. Good luck.

[leggy1T1]

Great, that's something to keep in mind. I've signed up for the October retake, and may postpone it as you suggested to December - unfortunately with Canadian schools it falls right after major essays and a few days before exams start :S However, getting a top score is certainly worth it, so we'll see how studying goes. Many thanks for your advice re: LSAT retake & application cycles.