Top Law Schools

Hi guys,

I recently got a 180 on the June LSAT but have a relatively sub-par GPA of 3.5 I'm a rising senior at HYP and have been kind of a lazy bum the past three years and have gotten killed in some quant classes as well. Since I've decided on law school, I was wondering if it was worth it to wait a year after UG to apply so I could then take easy classes and bust my ass to try to raise that GPA to maybe around 3.6 or a little above there. Ideally, this would hopefully give me a better shot at HLS and perhaps a shot at some type of maybe (minor) merit aid at CCN. I'm not entirely sure if the GPA difference would matter though.

So I guess my question would be if it seemed like it would be worth it to try do take a year off and bust my ass to raise my GPA or if it would not make a much of a difference and I should just apply this cycle and likely end up at one of CCN.

I don't think it would make a difference. You'll end up at CCN either way.

LSP gives you a Strong Consider with a 3.5 and 180, but that seems a bit generous. Are you an URM?

If you can get your GPA above 3.6 you'd have a shot at Harvard, especially if your undergrad is Harvard. I think it'd probably worth it.

Haribo wrote:If you can get your GPA above 3.6 you'd have a shot at Harvard, especially if your undergrad is Harvard. I think it'd probably worth it.

^This

babaghanouj wrote:I don't think it would make a difference. You'll end up at CCN either way.

Having HYP as undergrad can be a difference maker. Below a 3.7 and being a vanilla candidate will typically equal no shot at Harvard, but if you look at the non-urm outliers on LSN, there is a trend of seeing HYP.

It might give you a shot (because right now you have no shot) but your likely to end up at CCN either way. So its up to you if a slim chance at HLS is worth waiting the year to start.

cooley

D-ROCCA wrote:LSP gives you a Strong Consider with a 3.5 and 180, but that seems a bit generous. Are you an URM?

Yeah, I think LSP is not that reliable when it comes to HYS and soft-splitters. Unfortunately, I'm not URM and I'm actually an ORM (Asian). I am from a deep-south state but I'm not sure if that helps with Law School applications. I remember it being important during college admissions but I think it might not be so helpful for the Law School process.

Haribo wrote:If you can get your GPA above 3.6 you'd have a shot at Harvard, especially if your undergrad is Harvard. I think it'd probably worth it.

Unfortunately, I'm actually not at Harvard but at Princeton. We actually have "grade deflation" here making our median the lowest in the Ivies but I doubt adcomms really give much credence to that. I seem to get the sense, though, that Harvard kids get much more of a boost compared to Yale and Princeton kids at HLS . I tend to agree that it's a slim shot but the data on soft LSAT splitters is pretty scarce to probably conclude that it's impossible. It might be worth a slim shot if I can find something interesting/worthwhile to do for a year.

My other question was if anyone knew if it was disadvantageous to apply and get accepted, withdraw, and then apply again the next year. This would be my concern with applying to CCN this year. Do adcomms keep application files from year to year or do you get a new file with each new cycle?

Thanks for the advice so far guys. It's been really helpful.

Sadly, coming from princeton, the chances are very slim for HYS with either a 3.5 or 3.6 GPA...

A 3.6, 180 and H undergrad is about the lowest GPA they'll go for at HLS looking at past data, especially given your ORM status. I say for your cycle just go ahead and apply and see what you get from CCN, but of course give HYS a shot. You never know what might happen, its just waiting an year for a 3.5 -> 3.6 probably isn't going to change much when your already far below the 25th GPA percentile..

I don't actually have an answer here, but this is interesting since I've been considering a similar question (Raising my 3.6 at a T25 undergrad to a 3.7-ish senior year). I'm taking the LSAT in October so I have neither the 180 nor the HYP undergrad but I'm interested in seeing the advice offered here anyway, and what the OP decides to do.

applepiecrust wrote:I don't actually have an answer here, but this is interesting since I've been considering a similar question (Raising my 3.6 at a T25 undergrad to a 3.7-ish senior year). I'm taking the LSAT in October so I have neither the 180 nor the HYP undergrad but I'm interested in seeing the advice offered here anyway, and what the OP decides to do.

the answer here are unique for OP's situation.. i.e. a 3.5, 180 is probably good for CCN, but won't be good even at 3.6, 180 for HYS.

For your case a 3.6 vs a 3.7 could be a large difference depending on your LSAT, so you definitely need your score before any conclusions can be drawn.

Na_Swatch wrote:

applepiecrust wrote:I don't actually have an answer here, but this is interesting since I've been considering a similar question (Raising my 3.6 at a T25 undergrad to a 3.7-ish senior year). I'm taking the LSAT in October so I have neither the 180 nor the HYP undergrad but I'm interested in seeing the advice offered here anyway, and what the OP decides to do.

the answer here are unique for OP's situation.. i.e. a 3.5, 180 is probably good for CCN, but won't be good even at 3.6, 180 for HYS.

For your case a 3.6 vs a 3.7 could be a large difference depending on your LSAT, so you definitely need your score before any conclusions can be drawn.

From this past cycle, 2 out of the 3 acceptances with a 3.6 GPA went to a top UG:
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/AHathaway
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/KuroiTsuki

3.6 acceptances from top UG from past years:
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/nyc123
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/giwtgtls
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/onthehill

While OP would still be a long-shot with a 3.6, coming from Harvard UG he still does have a shot.

For APC's question- you're going to need a 3.7, probably a 3.8 to have a decent shot at Harvard. For CCN, I would think Columbia is the only school where there is a bigger difference between a 3.6 and a 3.7-- CCN is all about the high LSAT.

You wouldn't be taking a year off, or waiting a year after UG, as you put it, to raise your GPA. You'd be delaying your graduation, taking 5 years to finish your UG. (Once the BA/BS is awarded, your UGPA is fixed and later UG classes make no difference for the LSAC GPA.)

Taking 5 years to finish your UG could be viewed negatively unless you do an honor's thesis or a coterminal master's degree (do they have those at P?) or at least a double major.

voice of reason wrote:You wouldn't be taking a year off, or waiting a year after UG, as you put it, to raise your GPA. You'd be delaying your graduation, taking 5 years to finish your UG. (Once the BA/BS is awarded, your UGPA is fixed and later UG classes make no difference for the LSAC GPA.)

Taking 5 years to finish your UG could be viewed negatively unless you do an honor's thesis or a coterminal master's degree (do they have those at P?) or at least a double major.

Sorry about the confusion but I'm actually going to be a senior next year so I'm not delaying graduation.

Richie Tenenbaum wrote:

Na_Swatch wrote:

applepiecrust wrote:I don't actually have an answer here, but this is interesting since I've been considering a similar question (Raising my 3.6 at a T25 undergrad to a 3.7-ish senior year). I'm taking the LSAT in October so I have neither the 180 nor the HYP undergrad but I'm interested in seeing the advice offered here anyway, and what the OP decides to do.

the answer here are unique for OP's situation.. i.e. a 3.5, 180 is probably good for CCN, but won't be good even at 3.6, 180 for HYS.

For your case a 3.6 vs a 3.7 could be a large difference depending on your LSAT, so you definitely need your score before any conclusions can be drawn.

From this past cycle, 2 out of the 3 acceptances with a 3.6 GPA went to a top UG:
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/AHathaway
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/KuroiTsuki

3.6 acceptances from top UG from past years:
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/nyc123
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/giwtgtls
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/onthehill

While OP would still be a long-shot with a 3.6, coming from Harvard UG he still does have a shot.

For APC's question- you're going to need a 3.7, probably a 3.8 to have a decent shot at Harvard. For CCN, I would think Columbia is the only school where there is a bigger difference between a 3.6 and a 3.7-- CCN is all about the high LSAT.

Thats the thing, OP is not from Harvard UG... he's from Princeton... making a relatively significant difference in his chances.

3.6 GPA/180 + H UG = Decent Shot at HLS
3.6 GPA/180 + Princeton UG = weak chance at HLS

As the OP is the latter, he has to decide if delaying his application is worth the weak chance.

Richie Tenenbaum wrote:

Na_Swatch wrote:

applepiecrust wrote:I don't actually have an answer here, but this is interesting since I've been considering a similar question (Raising my 3.6 at a T25 undergrad to a 3.7-ish senior year). I'm taking the LSAT in October so I have neither the 180 nor the HYP undergrad but I'm interested in seeing the advice offered here anyway, and what the OP decides to do.

the answer here are unique for OP's situation.. i.e. a 3.5, 180 is probably good for CCN, but won't be good even at 3.6, 180 for HYS.

For your case a 3.6 vs a 3.7 could be a large difference depending on your LSAT, so you definitely need your score before any conclusions can be drawn.

For APC's question- you're going to need a 3.7, probably a 3.8 to have a decent shot at Harvard. For CCN, I would think Columbia is the only school where there is a bigger difference between a 3.6 and a 3.7-- CCN is all about the high LSAT.

Yep, I know a LOT relies on my LSAT: a sub-170 score would essentially mean no shot at T-14 (Except at my undergrad school), whereas a 176+ score could mean solid shot at CCN. I'm not even looking at HYS.
I was just curious.

Yes, all evidence points to the schools keeping files on past applications. Is it a disadvantage? Some people have been accepted the year after a withdrawal, but I imagine you'll be fighting the impression "he doesn't really want to go here" next application.

My advice is to apply this year and bust your ass in your classes. A 3.60 isn't going to get you Harvard, but if you end the year with straight As--not sure where that would put you--it might be worth re-applying. But your probably looking at CCN regardless.

Richie Tenenbaum wrote: From this past cycle, 2 out of the 3 acceptances with a 3.6 GPA went to a top UG:
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/AHathaway
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/KuroiTsuki

3.6 acceptances from top UG from past years:
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/nyc123
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/giwtgtls
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/onthehill

While OP would still be a long-shot with a 3.6, coming from Harvard UG he still does have a shot.

1) OP is talking about getting to 3.6 and you cite a 3.69 and 3.67 as evidence that s/he'll have a shot?
2) OP is not coming from Harvard.
3) Past years aren't very relevant since JR seems bent on raising the GPA percentiles from the TS days. An extra year could easily allow HLS' GPA range to climb even higher, all but ensuring that the OP will end up at CCN.

babaghanouj wrote:

Richie Tenenbaum wrote: From this past cycle, 2 out of the 3 acceptances with a 3.6 GPA went to a top UG:
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/AHathaway
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/KuroiTsuki

3.6 acceptances from top UG from past years:
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/nyc123
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/giwtgtls
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/onthehill

While OP would still be a long-shot with a 3.6, coming from Harvard UG he still does have a shot.

1) OP is talking about getting to 3.6 and you cite a 3.69 and 3.67 as evidence that s/he'll have a shot?
2) OP is not coming from Harvard.
3) Past years aren't very relevant since JR seems bent on raising the GPA percentiles from the TS days. An extra year could easily allow HLS' GPA range to climb even higher, all but ensuring that the OP will end up at CCN.

It might just be that the economy lead to a stronger pool of applicants last cycle but this is a critical point. JR's cycle seemed to place a higher standard on GPA than TS's did. This depresses me greatly but I agree that it supports the conclusion that a 3.6 isn't going to cut it.

KibblesAndVick wrote:

babaghanouj wrote:

Richie Tenenbaum wrote: From this past cycle, 2 out of the 3 acceptances with a 3.6 GPA went to a top UG:
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/AHathaway
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/KuroiTsuki

3.6 acceptances from top UG from past years:
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/nyc123
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/giwtgtls
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/onthehill

While OP would still be a long-shot with a 3.6, coming from Harvard UG he still does have a shot.

1) OP is talking about getting to 3.6 and you cite a 3.69 and 3.67 as evidence that s/he'll have a shot?
2) OP is not coming from Harvard.
3) Past years aren't very relevant since JR seems bent on raising the GPA percentiles from the TS days. An extra year could easily allow HLS' GPA range to climb even higher, all but ensuring that the OP will end up at CCN.

It might just be that the economy lead to a stronger pool of applicants last cycle but this is a critical point. JR's cycle seemed to place a higher standard on GPA than TS's did. This depresses me greatly but I agree that it supports the conclusion that a 3.6 isn't going to cut it.

Transfer to Harvard UG before you graduate OP.. gives you the best shot .

All kidding aside, why do you guys think there was a sudden increase in GPA emphasis? Just cause JR could do it with the better pool? (but then why not a similar emphasis on higher LSATs?)

Dang, I wish I had not been so lazy during my first three years of college. I think I'm still leaning towards maybe taking a gap year as most people I've talked to seem to recommend doing something else at least for a little while between UG and Law School.

My only concern is whether it would be harmful at all to apply to CCN next year and then turn it down to do something else as I will likely end up at CCN even if I take a year off. I guess I'll ask my pre-law advisor about this but was wondering if anyone knew.

babaghanouj wrote:

Richie Tenenbaum wrote: From this past cycle, 2 out of the 3 acceptances with a 3.6 GPA went to a top UG:
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/AHathaway
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/KuroiTsuki

3.6 acceptances from top UG from past years:
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/nyc123
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/giwtgtls
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/onthehill

While OP would still be a long-shot with a 3.6, coming from Harvard UG he still does have a shot.

1) OP is talking about getting to 3.6 and you cite a 3.69 and 3.67 as evidence that s/he'll have a shot?
2) OP is not coming from Harvard.
3) Past years aren't very relevant since JR seems bent on raising the GPA percentiles from the TS days. An extra year could easily allow HLS' GPA range to climb even higher, all but ensuring that the OP will end up at CCN.

1) I just looked at all acceptances with a 3.6. Maybe it would have been better to limit it to a 3.65 or lower though. It makes it difficult to stick to such a tight range though just b/c of the lack of data points (another reason why I looked at previous years too, though I tried to limit it to the most recent years).
2) Bad RC on my part. Thought OP said Harvard, not just HYP. You think it makes a substantial difference though?
3) Included reasons for including past years on first point. And while I believe that Harvard's GPA will still continue to crawl higher, I'm not sure how JR thinks he can raises GPA at a faster rate while maintaining their LSAT (and maintaining the upward climb of their LSAT). Last few years of the average of their 25th/75th, based on numbers from Leiter rankings:
2007: 172 / 3.835
2008: 172.5 / 3.850
2009: 173 / 3.855
2010: 173.5 / 3.86

Coming from HYP can account for .1 or .2 GPA points. While 3.5 seems to be just too far away, I still think a 3.6 has got a shot, albeit a long one.

Richie Tenenbaum wrote:

babaghanouj wrote:

Richie Tenenbaum wrote: From this past cycle, 2 out of the 3 acceptances with a 3.6 GPA went to a top UG:
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/AHathaway
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/KuroiTsuki

3.6 acceptances from top UG from past years:
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/nyc123
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/giwtgtls
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/onthehill

While OP would still be a long-shot with a 3.6, coming from Harvard UG he still does have a shot.

1) OP is talking about getting to 3.6 and you cite a 3.69 and 3.67 as evidence that s/he'll have a shot?
2) OP is not coming from Harvard.
3) Past years aren't very relevant since JR seems bent on raising the GPA percentiles from the TS days. An extra year could easily allow HLS' GPA range to climb even higher, all but ensuring that the OP will end up at CCN.

1) I just looked at all acceptances with a 3.6. Maybe it would have been better to limit it to a 3.65 or lower though. It makes it difficult to stick to such a tight range though just b/c of the lack of data points (another reason why I looked at previous years too, though I tried to limit it to the most recent years).
2) Bad RC on my part. Thought OP said Harvard, not just HYP. You think it makes a substantial difference though?
3) Included reasons for including past years on first point. And while I believe that Harvard's GPA will still continue to crawl higher, I'm not sure how JR thinks he can raises GPA at a faster rate while maintaining their LSAT (and maintaining the upward climb of their LSAT). Last few years of the average of their 25th/75th, based on numbers from Leiter rankings:
2007: 172 / 3.835
2008: 172.5 / 3.850
2009: 173 / 3.855
2010: 173.5 / 3.86

Coming from HYP can account for .1 or .2 GPA points. While 3.5 seems to be just too far away, I still think a 3.6 has got a shot, albeit a long one.

Harvard UG students experience by far the largest boost in terms of leeway into getting into HLS... this is backed up by Harvard's own charts of its students applying to HLS (not a H UG myself, but some people on TLS have looked at these charts and said whats on their before)

Then Comparing students applying to H, it seems from past cycles Y UG has a slightly larger boost than P UG, which seems to come in last out of providing an application advantage from HYP.

In the end, a 3.6, 180, P UG still has a shot of course, its just a very small one (my guess is maybe ~10-25%)... still much better than a 3.5, 180 which I'd put at <10% chance.

What about Harvard UG, 176 LSAT, 3.56 (upward trend starting at 3.1x and ending at 3.8x by senior year), and 5 yrs good work experience? I would guess little to no chance at HYS, right?

OP, with that low of a GPA, you really need to ask yourself: Barry Law, or Nova Southeastern?

(Kidding of course... you're in at CCN, probably out at HYS due to your low GPA.)

And kiwi, that's an interesting situation. You're a Harvard alum and you have WE... I feel like it could be a situation where they could overlook your GPA to some degree. Definitely worth an app.