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Hey guys, longtime lurker. I wanted to know what is your opinion regarding a retake. Basically, I have a C/168/C, I am contemplating on retaking, the last cancel was from the June 2010 test. I want to go to HYS, but with the cancels this might be a pipe-dream . However, i also would like to maximize my chances at the lower T-14. Do you think a retake is worth it? I have a 4.0 and was PTing at around 174. I panicked when I reached the the games section. Thanks for your help.

Anyone?

I think you have a fair chance of getting into Harvard. On LSN, the two Hispanic students whose numbers are most similar to yours got into Harvard, but it's hard to infer anything from such a small sample. Retaking the LSAT would probably be the best option for you, as a 170+ would give you a much better shot at HYS. (I'd bet money on your getting into at least one if you get a 170.)

hax123 wrote:I think you have a fair chance of getting into Harvard. On LSN, the two Hispanic students whose numbers are most similar to yours got into Harvard, but it's hard to infer anything from such a small sample. Retaking the LSAT would probably be the best option for you, as a 170+ would give you a much better shot at HYS. (I'd bet money on your getting into at least one if you get a 170.)

I think he is saying he is hispanic but not a URM, right? Meaning that he doesn't have a chance at harvard.

Patriot1208 wrote:

hax123 wrote:I think you have a fair chance of getting into Harvard. On LSN, the two Hispanic students whose numbers are most similar to yours got into Harvard, but it's hard to infer anything from such a small sample. Retaking the LSAT would probably be the best option for you, as a 170+ would give you a much better shot at HYS. (I'd bet money on your getting into at least one if you get a 170.)

I think he is saying he is hispanic but not a URM, right? Meaning that he doesn't have a chance at harvard.

Hispanics are URMs. They don't receive as large a boost as blacks, Native Americans, Mexicans, or Puerto Ricans, but they still receive a sizable boost.

hax123 wrote:

Patriot1208 wrote:

hax123 wrote:I think you have a fair chance of getting into Harvard. On LSN, the two Hispanic students whose numbers are most similar to yours got into Harvard, but it's hard to infer anything from such a small sample. Retaking the LSAT would probably be the best option for you, as a 170+ would give you a much better shot at HYS. (I'd bet money on your getting into at least one if you get a 170.)

I think he is saying he is hispanic but not a URM, right? Meaning that he doesn't have a chance at harvard.

Hispanics are URMs. They don't receive as large a boost as blacks, Native Americans, Mexicans, or Puerto Ricans, but they still receive a sizable boost.

South American generally does not qualify as URM. HTH

Patriot1208 wrote:

hax123 wrote:

Patriot1208 wrote:

hax123 wrote:I think you have a fair chance of getting into Harvard. On LSN, the two Hispanic students whose numbers are most similar to yours got into Harvard, but it's hard to infer anything from such a small sample. Retaking the LSAT would probably be the best option for you, as a 170+ would give you a much better shot at HYS. (I'd bet money on your getting into at least one if you get a 170.)

I think he is saying he is hispanic but not a URM, right? Meaning that he doesn't have a chance at harvard.

Hispanics are URMs. They don't receive as large a boost as blacks, Native Americans, Mexicans, or Puerto Ricans, but they still receive a sizable boost.

South American generally does not qualify as URM. HTH

Yes, it does. We had a debate about this just the other day.

There are COUNTLESS times this has been talked about on the net, and the consensus is NO. At most a VERY small 1-2 point bump. That means the OP still has no chance at harvard.

Score cancellations count towards the three LSAT limit in 2 years. Has it been over two years since the first canceled score, or are you willing to wait it out so you can retake?

Although, there has been much debate on this, I agree with hax123. Both of the applicants with same numbers, were non-MX,PR Hispanics. I believe one had 168,3.82 and the other had 168,4.1. Also the Harvard application asks only whether the applicant is Hispanic/Latino.

someones alt wrote:Score cancellations count towards the three LSAT limit in 2 years. Has it been over two years since the first canceled score, or are you willing to wait it out so you can retake?

It has been two years. I can register for a retake.

Patriot1208 wrote:There are COUNTLESS times this has been talked about on the net, and the consensus is NO. At most a VERY small 1-2 point bump. That means the OP still has no chance at harvard.

Look at the evidence: http://search.lawschoolnumbers.com/user ... Cycle=0910. You'll need to develop this skill if you want to be a successful lawyer.

colombiano123 wrote:Although, there has been much debate on this, I agree with hax123. Both of the applicants with same numbers, were non-MX,PR Hispanics. I believe one had 168,3.85 and the other had 168,4.1. Also the Harvard application asks only whether the applicant is Hispanic/Latino.

The ones I was talking about were 167/3.99 and 168/3.82.

hax123 wrote:

colombiano123 wrote:Although, there has been much debate on this, I agree with hax123. Both of the applicants with same numbers, were non-MX,PR Hispanics. I believe one had 168,3.85 and the other had 168,4.1. Also the Harvard application asks only whether the applicant is Hispanic/Latino.

The ones I was talking about were 167/3.99 and 168/3.82.

Yes, sorry 168/3.82, there was another applicant on LSN 168/4.15 (Hispanic),

In that case, you need to answer "do I realistically think I can do better on the LSAT?" because with the cancels it seems like you're having confidence problems or you're unprepared for the test. If you don't think you can, are you HYS or bust? You certainly have a shot, but you're nowhere near a lock for those schools. You should be solid at the lower T14.

hax123 wrote:

Patriot1208 wrote:There are COUNTLESS times this has been talked about on the net, and the consensus is NO. At most a VERY small 1-2 point bump. That means the OP still has no chance at harvard.

Look at the evidence: http://search.lawschoolnumbers.com/user ... Cycle=0910. You'll need to develop this skill if you want to be a successful lawyer.

One of these two 168/high gpas admits went to an Ivy, and the other has a masters and a hard science background. OP should be conservative and understand his/her current chances at HYS are mild but reasonable.

The 167/3.99 also had a science major.

someones alt wrote:In that case, you need to answer "do I realistically think I can do better on the LSAT?" because with the cancels it seems like you're having confidence problems or you're unprepared for the test. If you don't think you can, are you HYS or bust? You certainly have a shot, but you're nowhere near a lock for those schools. You should be solid at the lower T14.

I think that the cancels were a product of nervousness, I sincerely believe that I can do better. The only question is how are the cancels going to be looked at by the Admission committee. I know that they are probably a neg. soft. Do you think that a higher score will (say 170+) will put me in a better position or is the fact that I will take the test 4 times bar me from HYS?

colombiano123 wrote:Although, there has been much debate on this, I agree with hax123. Both of the applicants with same numbers, were non-MX,PR Hispanics. I believe one had 168,3.82 and the other had 168,4.1. Also the Harvard application asks only whether the applicant is Hispanic/Latino.

This I did not know, which is the reason for the difference, but most law schools do have distinctions on their applications and again the CONSENSUS is that non mx, pr urm does not get that boost for these schools. Hax, i'm going to suggest taking a statistics class. Taking a self selecting observation from less than 1% of applicants would be cause to dismiss any causal argument. Especially, with confounding variables. As one statistician said, "people who do this, especially in public policy, kill people." Sorry, being smart is not something that you can change.

someones alt wrote:

hax123 wrote:

Patriot1208 wrote:There are COUNTLESS times this has been talked about on the net, and the consensus is NO. At most a VERY small 1-2 point bump. That means the OP still has no chance at harvard.

Look at the evidence: http://search.lawschoolnumbers.com/user ... Cycle=0910. You'll need to develop this skill if you want to be a successful lawyer.

One of these two 168/high gpas admits went to an Ivy, and the other has a masters and a hard science background. OP should be conservative and understand his/her current chances at HYS are mild but reasonable.

The 167/3.99 also had a science major.

Yes, I definitely understand. I think the question was whether these applicants received some sort of boost from their non-MX/PR Hispanic status.

colombiano123 wrote:

someones alt wrote:In that case, you need to answer "do I realistically think I can do better on the LSAT?" because with the cancels it seems like you're having confidence problems or you're unprepared for the test. If you don't think you can, are you HYS or bust? You certainly have a shot, but you're nowhere near a lock for those schools. You should be solid at the lower T14.

I think that the cancels were a product of nervousness, I sincerely believe that I can do better. The only question is how are the cancels going to be looked at by the Admission committee. I know that they are probably a neg. soft. Do you think that a higher score will (say 170+) will put me in a better position or is the fact that I will take the test 4 times bar me from HYS?

They might be looked at negatively, but you can't help that now. You've got to apply to see what happens, and applications at those schools will always be somewhat of a crapshoot. A better LSAT score would put you in a better position, but that's universal advice. If you think you can do better, then take it again and do better. Just make sure you don't waste anymore time and money.

someones alt wrote:

colombiano123 wrote:

someones alt wrote:In that case, you need to answer "do I realistically think I can do better on the LSAT?" because with the cancels it seems like you're having confidence problems or you're unprepared for the test. If you don't think you can, are you HYS or bust? You certainly have a shot, but you're nowhere near a lock for those schools. You should be solid at the lower T14.

I think that the cancels were a product of nervousness, I sincerely believe that I can do better. The only question is how are the cancels going to be looked at by the Admission committee. I know that they are probably a neg. soft. Do you think that a higher score will (say 170+) will put me in a better position or is the fact that I will take the test 4 times bar me from HYS?

They might be looked at negatively, but you can't help that now. You've got to apply to see what happens, and applications at those schools will always be somewhat of a crapshoot. A better LSAT score would put you in a better position, but that's universal advice. If you think you can do better, then take it again and do better. Just make sure you don't waste anymore time and money.

This is true. Thanks for the advice.

Patriot1208 wrote:
This I did not know, which is the reason for the difference, but most law schools do have distinctions on their applications and again the CONSENSUS is that non mx, pr urm does not get that boost for these schools.

Puerto Ricans and Mexicans receive larger boosts than other Hispanics, but other Hispanics still receive boosts. (It's at least 3 or 4 points on the LSAT.) If the consensus is that non MX or PR Hispanics do not receive any boost in admissions, then the consensus is wrong.

Patriot1208 wrote: Hax, i'm going to suggest taking a statistics class. Taking a self selecting observation from less than 1% of applicants would be cause to dismiss any causal argument. As one statistician said, "people who do this, especially in public policy, kill people." Sorry, being smart is not something that you can change.

There's no need for me to take a statistics class -- I earned in A+ in AP Statistics in high school and earned a 5 on the AP test. The small sample size isn't really a weakness because there's such a strong and consistent pattern in the admissions cycle of Hispanic applicants. The probability that chance alone accounts for the disparate admission cycles for Hispanic and non-Hispanic applicants is probably close to 0.

colombiano123 wrote:

someones alt wrote:

hax123 wrote:

Patriot1208 wrote:There are COUNTLESS times this has been talked about on the net, and the consensus is NO. At most a VERY small 1-2 point bump. That means the OP still has no chance at harvard.

Look at the evidence: http://search.lawschoolnumbers.com/user ... Cycle=0910. You'll need to develop this skill if you want to be a successful lawyer.

One of these two 168/high gpas admits went to an Ivy, and the other has a masters and a hard science background. OP should be conservative and understand his/her current chances at HYS are mild but reasonable.

The 167/3.99 also had a science major.

Yes, I definitely understand. I think the question was whether these applicants received some sort of boost from their non-MX/PR Hispanic status.

My point was you'll hardly ever understand what combination of soft factors pushes you over the edge for these schools. You know that you're going to apply to them anyways because you have a legitimate shot. Whether or not your URM status benefits you is out of your control. Focus on the LSAT and writing a compelling personal statement, rather than speculating on something you can't change now.

hax123 wrote:

Patriot1208 wrote:
This I did not know, which is the reason for the difference, but most law schools do have distinctions on their applications and again the CONSENSUS is that non mx, pr urm does not get that boost for these schools.

Puerto Ricans and Mexicans receive larger boosts than other Hispanics, but other Hispanics still receive boosts. (It's at least 3 or 4 points on the LSAT.) If the consensus is that non MX or PR Hispanics do not receive any boost in admissions, then the consensus is wrong.

Patriot1208 wrote: Hax, i'm going to suggest taking a statistics class. Taking a self selecting observation from less than 1% of applicants would be cause to dismiss any causal argument. As one statistician said, "people who do this, especially in public policy, kill people." Sorry, being smart is not something that you can change.

There's no need for me to take a statistics class -- I earned in A+ in AP Statistics in high school and earned a 5 on the AP test. The small sample size isn't really a weakness because there's such a strong and consistent pattern in the admissions cycle of Hispanic applicants. The probability that chance alone accounts for the disparate admission cycles for Hispanic and non-Hispanic applicants is probably close to 0.

Apparently, your high school didn't really teach you proper statistics.


EDIT: i've taken 3 stats classes in college, 2 being upper level.

colombiano123, don't let Patriot1208 or anyone else discourage you from applying to top schools. Remember, it's in their interest to have less competition.

My advice is to study hard over the summer and retake the LSAT. Regardless of whether your score improves, I think you should apply to all T14 schools. With a 168/4.0, I'm guessing you'll get CCN at least.