NYU or reapply for HYSC? Forum

[Fevsi]

I voted for reapplying, no ED. If you are confident about your LSAT increase, why not go for it? Columbia puts a lot of weight on LSAT, so it will definitely be in the "possible" range. Which means, together with NYU, you'll have two "targets" and three reaches. Of course its risky, but your resume will be better, your LSAT (hopefully) better, and if you apply early, you have a good chance of getting into both, and maybe getting a nice scholarship (depending on your LSAT performance). The only thing I do not get is why you'd want to do this in the first place. I mean, the differences between NYU and C Law (as opposed to those two schools in general) are minimal except lay prestige. But if you have a serious reason to prefer C other than its Ivy status, if you feel you'll be much happier there, and if you are a risk-taker, it might be worth it.

[TheLuckyOne]

Why don't you retake the LSAT first and THEN start contemplating about the 2nd round?

If the LSAT doesn't work out he may end up losing out on NYU. I suppose he has to ask for a deferral soon if he is going to do that. But if he does get a deferral then there is no point in retaking.

That doesn't seem right. What if something happens and I decide to defer in the end of July? I don't think there is any deadline and this is one of the reasons some people get admitted a few days before orientation.

If I were OP I would just deposit money, take the test and see. In any case, IF he IS reapplying, he should be confident to get into Columbia at least. Also, NYU would know what's up no matter when he decided to reject an offer. If they don't want to admit him the following year, they will not, no matter what he does at this point. So to reject sooner or later will not really change anything. If he fails the test, no one will ever care and he'll just be happy at NYU.

I don't see any downside here.

OP, I wouldn't even attempt to reapply with anything less than 174. You must rock the test to even have a shot.

By the way, I've heard that scores of those admitted in summer don't count towards rankings. If that's true and you're not admitted over the summer, it's likely you will not be the following cycle as well. In addition, if you take the test and rock it, schools should have enough evidence of your capabilities and should have no problem admitting you in summer.

^^^Just contemplating...

[badfish]

Posted at the beg of this cycle...so thought I'd post my results and a bit of a predicament I face. I'm currently a senior in UG.

stats:
gpa - 3.65
lsat - 170
w/e - military/nice internships

In - NYU, Mich, Cornell, Gtown
Out - Berk
W/L - Harvard, Columbia, Penn
Still waiting - Stanford, Chicago

Obv i'm pretty excited about NYU, but almost more-so about W/L from Harvard/Columbia strangely. I'm deferring admission for a year due to a military assignment I have coming up early nxt year. SO i'm wondering what you guys think - should I re-take lsat and try reapplying for columbia (ED possibly) and Harvard? I applied a bit late this cycle, so applying early might help. I plan on starting a business that's been in progress upon graduation as well which might help my w/e some. Plus i'll be an officer in the army reserve upon graduation. I can pretty much guarantee higher lsat (expect 172-174). Sooo...is it worth it to risk giving up NYU in order to shoot for H/S/C? Or is this stupid...should i be grateful for what i have and go with it?

I'm not sure whether i could get into these schools or even nyu again if i applied again - its sometimes kinda hard to predict....and i'm not sure if the diff between columbia and nyu is large enough to take the risk of not getting in and loosing nyu. (im assuming that i can't apply to a school after already dedicating to another....is this a good assumption?)

With your stats you were lucky to get into nyu. I wouldn't risk it on a pipe dream of getting HYSC.

[r6_philly]

That doesn't seem right. What if something happens and I decide to defer in the end of July? I don't think there is any deadline and this is one of the reasons some people get admitted a few days before orientation.

If you defer, you usually enter into a binding contract that 1. you will attend the next year and 2. you will not initiate any new applications while you are in deferred status. So if you defer, you must attend. If you decide to reapply, you risk not getting accepted the next cycle. I am facing the same issues, so I have been comtemplating too.

[fugitivejammer]

Why don't you retake the LSAT first and THEN start contemplating about the 2nd round?

If the LSAT doesn't work out he may end up losing out on NYU. I suppose he has to ask for a deferral soon if he is going to do that. But if he does get a deferral then there is no point in retaking.

That doesn't seem right. What if something happens and I decide to defer in the end of July? I don't think there is any deadline and this is one of the reasons some people get admitted a few days before orientation.

If I were OP I would just deposit money, take the test and see. In any case, IF he IS reapplying, he should be confident to get into Columbia at least. Also, NYU would know what's up no matter when he decided to reject an offer. If they don't want to admit him the following year, they will not, no matter what he does at this point. So to reject sooner or later will not really change anything. If he fails the test, no one will ever care and he'll just be happy at NYU.

I don't see any downside here.

OP, I wouldn't even attempt to reapply with anything less than 174. You must rock the test to even have a shot.

By the way, I've heard that scores of those admitted in summer don't count towards rankings. If that's true and you're not admitted over the summer, it's likely you will not be the following cycle as well. In addition, if you take the test and rock it, schools should have enough evidence of your capabilities and should have no problem admitting you in summer.

^^^Just contemplating...

I think you make a valid point, luckyone. I definitely agree with everyone that I'm blessed to have NYU as an option. If I take any action, I will obviously study and take the lsat again, and assess the situation once I get a score. My GPA upon graduation will probably be a 3.7 btw, if it makes any difference.

I obv have a preference for Columbia over NYU, but that might not be enough to warrant a 2nd cycle, as you all pretty much agree. Some of you pointed out that H or S might not b worthwhile to pursue in itself from where i'm at, but this seems largely dependent on how i do on the lsat if i take it again.

I guess there's no harm in taking the lsat again, right? Let me pose one last hypothetical to you all, although some of you already gave some insight:

If YOU were me, and you were about to graduate with a 3.7 and w/e i mentioned before....what LSAT would you need to get to convince you to apply again for H or S? (keep in mind, you are me and you just got waitlisted at H w/ a 3.65/170 and in at N...)

[clintonius]

For Harvard: No less than 176, and you're still pushing it. 178 would be more comfortable.

With a 3.7, you could have a 180 and still be rejected at Stanford. Not saying you will be, but you very well could be, and I don't think you have much of a chance at acceptance regardless of your score.

Bottom line is, go to NYU. It is one of the finest law schools in the world and your admission was not a sure thing this cycle, given your numbers. We don't know what the next cycle holds. You are confident you can gain a two-point boost in your LSAT, and maybe even a four. A 3.7/174 does not seem to be auto-admit at Columbia, according to last year's LSN (which I believe contains more complete data than this year's graph-in-progress). Even if you perform to your own generous expectations, you will not have auto-admit numbers anywhere better than NYU. How silly would you feel to take a year, study your ass off, reapply, and wind up with the same cycle you had this year? What if NYU doesn't accept you because you rejected them once and they think you'll reject them again?

It seems clear that you want YHSC, and that you want to reapply, and hell, it's your life and time. But I don't believe you're going to get the affirmation you want from this forum.

[TheLuckyOne]

That doesn't seem right. What if something happens and I decide to defer in the end of July? I don't think there is any deadline and this is one of the reasons some people get admitted a few days before orientation.

If you defer, you usually enter into a binding contract that 1. you will attend the next year and 2. you will not initiate any new applications while you are in deferred status. So if you defer, you must attend. If you decide to reapply, you risk not getting accepted the next cycle. I am facing the same issues, so I have been comtemplating too.

I was saying that he could place a deposit to secure a spot by the end of June, take the test and defer if the score is bad, or just reject if the score is good. In this case, he's not losing anything, neither the opportunity to see if he stands a chance nor NYU acceptance.

[r6_philly]

That doesn't seem right. What if something happens and I decide to defer in the end of July? I don't think there is any deadline and this is one of the reasons some people get admitted a few days before orientation.

If you defer, you usually enter into a binding contract that 1. you will attend the next year and 2. you will not initiate any new applications while you are in deferred status. So if you defer, you must attend. If you decide to reapply, you risk not getting accepted the next cycle. I am facing the same issues, so I have been comtemplating too.

I was saying that he could place a deposit to secure a spot by the end of June, take the test and defer if the score is bad, or just reject if the score is good. In this case, he's not losing anything, neither the opportunity to see if he stands a chance nor NYU acceptance.

Many schools that I looked at ask you to request a deferral in a "reasonable timeframe". I suspect they want ample time to fill your seat with a comparable applicant, not just anyone they can get. If you wait until June score comes out then ask for a deferral then they may not grant it because it is too late.

I think OP said he has to defer anyway due to deployment. So what if the score comes out and is not high enough, then NYU refuses to grant a deferral because it is too late? Then he is double screwed.

[dbt]

I know it's probably meaningless coming from me (an NYU student) but I don't understand why you're considering reapplying for Columbia. When it comes down to it, the difference overall in NYU/Columbia is pretty insignificant, and you will find a lot of students like myself that chose NYU over Columbia.

Other than that, I stick to my earlier recommendation: lucky to get in, with a 173/3.65 you have a good shot at Columbia, especially ED, and you are unlikely to get Harvard in any case due to your GPA (3.8ish is magic number, otherwise it's a major uphill battle).

[TheLuckyOne]

That doesn't seem right. What if something happens and I decide to defer in the end of July? I don't think there is any deadline and this is one of the reasons some people get admitted a few days before orientation.

If you defer, you usually enter into a binding contract that 1. you will attend the next year and 2. you will not initiate any new applications while you are in deferred status. So if you defer, you must attend. If you decide to reapply, you risk not getting accepted the next cycle. I am facing the same issues, so I have been comtemplating too.

I was saying that he could place a deposit to secure a spot by the end of June, take the test and defer if the score is bad, or just reject if the score is good. In this case, he's not losing anything, neither the opportunity to see if he stands a chance nor NYU acceptance.

Many schools that I looked at ask you to request a deferral in a "reasonable timeframe". I suspect they want ample time to fill your seat with a comparable applicant, not just anyone they can get. If you wait until June score comes out then ask for a deferral then they may not grant it because it is too late.

I think OP said he has to defer anyway due to deployment. So what if the score comes out and is not high enough, then NYU refuses to grant a deferral because it is too late? Then he is double screwed.

Haha, true. Well, I guess in this case OP should clarify timeframe with NYU and go from there. We just speculate here

[Dr. Strangelove]

Stick with NYU.
If you're really unsatisfied with your NYU experience AND are excelling there academically, you would likely be able to transfer into HYSC later on.
However, it's too risky to turn them down.

[dbt]

Stick with NYU.
If you're really unsatisfied with your NYU experience AND are excelling there academically, you would likely be able to transfer into HYSC later on.
However, it's too risky to turn them down.

I really disagree w/ the transfer bit. Maybe this guy will be able to transfer into Columbia, but just being realistic, LSAT/GPA are decent indicators of 1L grades so it's not likely that he's going to be top of the class (and for HYS you basically need top 5-10% to have a shot, even coming from NYU).

[Dr. Strangelove]

Stick with NYU.
If you're really unsatisfied with your NYU experience AND are excelling there academically, you would likely be able to transfer into HYSC later on.
However, it's too risky to turn them down.

I really disagree w/ the transfer bit. Maybe this guy will be able to transfer into Columbia, but just being realistic, LSAT/GPA are decent indicators of 1L grades so it's not likely that he's going to be top of the class (and for HYS you basically need top 5-10% to have a shot, even coming from NYU).

Okay, that changes things... I thought it was more like top 10-20% from NYU...

[spirals]

OP clearly doesn't appreciate/understand how freakin' amazing NYU's law school is and how many people would kill to get into it.

Face it: your GPA is not high enough to get you into HYS. Columbia is possible with a very high LSAT score, but it's incredibly difficult to attain a 3-4 point increase in the 170s.

You need to either gain some perspective and start appreciating what you have or give up your seat for someone who will really appreciate having it.

Also, to the poster who compared Columbia to "podunk T-14": wtf? We're talking about top 14 law schools here, not south dakota state.

[270910]

LSAT/GPA are decent indicators of 1L grades so it's not likely that he's going to be top of the class

It doesn't work that way. LSAT + GPA are extraordinarily poor indicators of success within the tight bounds of the top law schools. Better than any other objective factor? yes. Good? No. Saying that having a certain LSAT/GPA makes it not likely a person will be at the top of the class is naive. I know plenty of people (myself included) that made it into a school by the skin of their teeth and kicked ass. I know full scholly kids below median. You can roughly paint very broad generalizations about score bands, but they mean next to nothing for individuals.

Also, to the poster who compared Columbia to "podunk T-14": wtf? We're talking about top 14 law schools here, not south dakota state.

That was sarcasm

[dbt]

LSAT/GPA are decent indicators of 1L grades so it's not likely that he's going to be top of the class

It doesn't work that way. LSAT + GPA are extraordinarily poor indicators of success within the tight bounds of the top law schools. Better than any other objective factor? yes. Good? No. Saying that having a certain LSAT/GPA makes it not likely a person will be at the top of the class is naive. I know plenty of people (myself included) that made it into a school by the skin of their teeth and kicked ass. I know full scholly kids below median. You can roughly paint very broad generalizations about score bands, but they mean next to nothing for individuals.

Also, to the poster who compared Columbia to "podunk T-14": wtf? We're talking about top 14 law schools here, not south dakota state.

That was sarcasm

Of course there will be exceptions, but the argument is not that "you're at the 25th percentiles, there's no way you'll be at or near top 10%" but rather "if you're thinking you're going to come to NYU at the 25th percentile and then pull off top 10% or higher, whatever is necessary to transfer to Harvard/etc., you're probably being naive because things are already not looking good." I don't doubt that some persons with 25th percentile marks do extremely well. I do doubt that they place near the top of the class with such frequency that one entering with those stats should base a decision to attend NYU on the prospect that he will do so well and be able to transfer. As I have suggested, the contrary is more likely true.

At the end of the day, LSAT/GPA are not entirely indicative of your 1L performance, but they are the best indicators, to my knowledge, available.

[ravens20]

I really disagree w/ the transfer bit. Maybe this guy will be able to transfer into Columbia, but just being realistic, LSAT/GPA are decent indicators of 1L grades so it's not likely that he's going to be top of the class (and for HYS you basically need top 5-10% to have a shot, even coming from NYU).

I know Stanford and Yale are harder to transfer to, but I was under the impression that students from top 20% at CCN have a good shot at transferring to Harvard which has a relatively large transfer class. From what you have seen/heard, is it just top 5-10% for transfers to Harvard from NYU?

[$1.99]

only on TLS would you find someone with this hypothetical lol

but seriously, your chances of getting into HYS are very low with that GPA no matter what LSAT you get so your only reasonable shot is CLS. given that CLS is right next to NYU, I would take the acceptance this year and defer. I don't really see a reason why you should retake the LSAT or try to reapply unless CLS is your dream school.

[dbt]

I really disagree w/ the transfer bit. Maybe this guy will be able to transfer into Columbia, but just being realistic, LSAT/GPA are decent indicators of 1L grades so it's not likely that he's going to be top of the class (and for HYS you basically need top 5-10% to have a shot, even coming from NYU).

I know Stanford and Yale are harder to transfer to, but I was under the impression that students from top 20% at CCN have a good shot at transferring to Harvard which has a relatively large transfer class. From what you have seen/heard, is it just top 5-10% for transfers to Harvard from NYU?

I really don't know. I've been going off of this. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/transferapps/
which suggests that at "top 10" schools people generally have top 5% grades. I would imagine, then, that if you're coming from NYU or Columbia you'd need at least top 10% (because our school really isn't *that* much better than the others). The only difference may be that in the 5 years of records on that website, nobody transferred from NYU/Columbia (or at least if they did, they didn't mention it by name explicitly).

I'm currently top 10% sending apps to HYS and I at least don't feel confident about any of these (except perhaps to a degree, Harvard). I imagine people that are at NYU and that will basically make law review no problem already have the grades such that transferring to HYS isn't going to provide them with any material benefit. For those of us that are just outside of that range, transferring to HYS might be preferable, if we don't make law review. I think you draw the line somewhere around there. But always keep in mind that even if you're coming from CCN, you're competing with top 1% at UT, top 5% at Michigan, etc. for those very few spots.

[270910]

at "top 10" schools people generally have top 5% grades. I would imagine, then, that if you're coming from NYU or Columbia you'd need at least top 10% (because our school really isn't *that* much better than the others).

[$1.99]

entertaining the possibility of transferring is delusional, you will be competing with the world's brightest students at these top law schools and if you go to one of these institutions with the assumption you will be able to beat these students, you are really full of it. go with the mindset that you will fulfill your law school studies at NYU and if somehow you do obtain the grades after 1L, then you can start to entertain the thought.

[dbt]

at "top 10" schools people generally have top 5% grades. I would imagine, then, that if you're coming from NYU or Columbia you'd need at least top 10% (because our school really isn't *that* much better than the others).

I'm not really sure how what I've said is douchy. School pride + the fact that CCN are generally held on a slightly higher level than the other non-HYS T14s + the fact that, as I noted, nobody on the database in the last 5 years showed to have transferred from Columbia or NYU (so I would imagine if you're less common, it may play to your favor).

Notice also that I said "top 10 schools students *generally* have top 5% grades" - there were ones with slightly lower grades. And I've said "at NYU or Columbia you'd need *at least top 10%*" - stressing that the difference probably isn't very much and that top 10% borderline CCN students are fighting an uphill battle.

But you keep on rolling your eyes, friend.

[dbt]

entertaining the possibility of transferring is delusional, you will be competing with the world's brightest students at these top law schools and if you go to one of these institutions with the assumption you will be able to beat these students, you are really full of it. go with the mindset that you will fulfill your law school studies at NYU and if somehow you do obtain the grades after 1L, then you can start to entertain the thought.

exactly.

[Aine]

Stick with NYU.
If you're really unsatisfied with your NYU experience AND are excelling there academically, you would likely be able to transfer into HYSC later on.
However, it's too risky to turn them down.

I really disagree w/ the transfer bit. Maybe this guy will be able to transfer into Columbia, but just being realistic, LSAT/GPA are decent indicators of 1L grades so it's not likely that he's going to be top of the class (and for HYS you basically need top 5-10% to have a shot, even coming from NYU).

"Decent indicators" actually translates into a .33 correlation, which, if I remember my high school math correctly, is not a strong correlation.

That being said, for goodness sakes, accept NYU.