Chances? Forum

[Dr. Strangelove]

GPA is currently around 2.8 but I think it will go up to a 3.0 by the end of first semester senior year, so assume my GPA is around there... with five semesters under my belt, there really isn't much opportunity for it to go up or down a lot.
I have not taken the LSAT yet but I am only applying to law school if I get a 170 or better.

Most sources don't seem to be very reliable for splitter applicants but I've done my research and think I'd apply to the following schools.

Columbia
NYU
Chicago
Penn
Michigan
UVA
Duke
Cornell
Georgetown
Vanderbilt
UT-Austin
Wash U
George Washington
Fordham
Illinois
Washington & Lee


Chances?
Here's the format I'm thinking of:

EXAMPLE
Awesome Law School
(170-174: Reject, 175-179: Waitlist, 180:Accept)

cooley law school
(170-180: Accept)

Satan Law School
(170-180: Reject)

[voice of reason]

It's not very productive to think about this before you take the LSAT, but you can play with the tool at http://www.lawschoolpredictor.com to get some guesses about your prospects with various scores.

[BigA]

It's not very productive to think about this before you take the LSAT, but you can play with the tool at http://www.lawschoolpredictor.com to get some guesses about your prospects with various scores.

nah don't bother doing that with that GPA. Being a splitter can really throw things off (so I've heard)

[Dr. Strangelove]

I know I haven't taken the LSAT yet but I think that assessing my chances will help give me some motivation to study for the LSAT.
Here's what I've been getting from LSP. (~with 3.0 GPA)

Can anyone tell me what's definitely wrong?
180 LSAT
Admit: Michigan, Duke, Cornell, Georgetown, UT-Austin, Vanderbilt, Wash U, Illinois, George Washington, Fordham, Washington & Lee
Strong Consider: Penn, NYU, UVA
Consider: Columbia, Chicago

179 LSAT
Admit: Michigan, Duke, Cornell, Georgetown, UT-Austin, Wash U, Illinois, George Washington, Fordham, Washington & Lee
Strong Consider: Penn, UVA, Vanderbilt
Consider: Columbia, NYU, Chicago

178 LSAT
Admit: Michigan, Cornell, Georgetown, UT-Austin, Wash U, Illinois, George Washington, Fordham, Washington & Lee
Strong Consider: Duke, Vanderbilt
Consider: NYU, Penn, UVA
Weak Consider: Columbia, Chicago

177 LSAT
Admit: Cornell, Wash U, Illinois, George Washington, Fordham, Washington & Lee
Strong Consider: Michgian, Duke, Georgetown, UT-Austin
Consider: NYU, Penn, UVA, Vanderbilt
Weak Consider: Columbia, Chicago

176 LSAT
Admit: Cornell, Illinois, George Washington, Fordham, Washington & Lee
Strong Consider: Michgian, Georgetown, UT-Austin, Wash U
Consider: NYU, Penn, Duke, UVA, Vanderbilt
Deny: Columbia, Chicago

175 LSAT
Admit: Illinois, George Washington, Fordham, Washington & Lee
Strong Consider: Cornell, UT-Austin, Wash U
Consider: Penn, Michigan, Duke, UVA, Georgetown, Vanderbilt
Weak Consider: NYU
Deny: Columbia, Chicago


174 LSAT
Admit: Illinois, Fordham, Washington & Lee
Strong Consider: Cornell, Wash U, George Washington
Consider: Penn, Michigan, Duke, Georgetown, Vanderbilt, UT-Austin
Weak Consider: NYU, UVA
Deny: Columbia, Chicago

173 LSAT
Admit: Washington & Lee
Strong Consider: Illinois, George Washington, Fordham
Consider: Michigan, Duke, Cornell, Georgetown, Vanderbilt, UT-Austin, Wash U
Weak Consider: Penn, UVA
Deny: Columbia, NYU, Chicago

172 LSAT
Strong Consider: Illinois, George Washington, Fordham, Washington & Lee
Consider: Cornell, Georgetown, UT-Austin, Wash U
Weak Consider: Penn, Michigan, Duke, Vanderbilt
Deny: Columbia, NYU, Chicago, UVA

171 LSAT
Strong Consider: Illinois, Fordham, Washington & Lee
Consider: Cornell, UT-Austin Wash U, George Washington
Weak Consider: Michigan, Duke, Georgetown, Vanderbilt
Deny: Columbia, NYU, Chicago, Penn, UVA

170 LSAT
Strong Consider: Washington & Lee
Consider: Cornell, Wash U, Illinois, George Washington, Fordham
Weak Consider: UT-Austin, Vanderbilt
Deny: Columbia, NYU, Chicago, Penn, Michigan, Duke, UVA, Georgetown

[pertristis]

With apologies to encylopediabrown: http://lawschoolnumbers.com/encyclopediabrown

Being a splitter isn't fun. LSP will be wildly WILDLY off for you.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Crap..
I really should stop thinking about this now and am thinking of only applying straight out of undergrad if I get a 175 or higher.. otherwise, I'll take the alternative plan and if I still want law school.. I'll send an ED app to Northwestern and hope to get it all done ASAP.


New List
Harvard (Why not? Maybe if I get a 4.0 senior year.. Harvard would decide to take me off a WL.)
Columbia
Chicago
NYU
Duke
Penn
Michigan
UVA
Northwestern (have some WE- nothing remarkable but enough to talk about in a personal statement/interview.)
Georgetown
Cornell
UT-Austin
Vanderbilt
Wash U
Illinois
George Washington
Washington & Lee
Iowa
Notre Dame
William & Mary
Emory

I'm not really eager to go to California and am perfectly fine with the fact that they are more GPA-oriented than LSAT-oriented.
21 seems like a good number for my kind of applicant... I will try to avoid TLS till this semester is over though.

[FuManChusco]

I don't mean to rain on your parade but have you even looked at an LSAT question yet? Banking on a 175+ or even a 170+ is crazy unless you have done well on several PTs. I had an initial score of 169 in January and I'm still not consistently hitting 175 plus. I'm just starting to 172+ every time, but the real test could throw me off. It's a very small margin of error when you get into the 90th percentile. I'm not saying you can't do it, but there's a reason only 1% of test takers score that high. It's because it's very hard to do. I know kids who studied for months and pulled 155s. Not everyone is cut out for it. By all means give it your best shot, but I wouldn't obsess over T14, T25, or a 99th percentile score.

P.S. Forget about Harvard. They'd most likely reject you with a 180.

P.P.S. encyclopediabrown is by far the most depressing LSN user ever. I don't understand his cycle at all. If he doesn't get a T25 acceptance, I'm going to cry for him. It makes me feel terrible about applying for 2011 considering both of my numbers will likely be lower. A 177 is crazy and he's gotten no love. He's not even that far under a 3.0. I'm sitting on a 2.6x and hoping for a 173. This is not going to be pretty.
...

[sluguy14]

I don't mean to rain on your parade but have you even looked at an LSAT question yet? Banking on a 175+ or even a 170+ is crazy unless you have done well on several PTs. I had an initial score of 169 in January and I'm still not consistently hitting 175 plus. I'm just starting to 172+ every time, but the real test could throw me off. It's a very small margin of error when you get into the 90th percentile. I'm not saying you can't do it, but there's a reason only 1% of test takers score that high. It's because it's very hard to do. I know kids who studied for months and pulled 155s. Not everyone is cut out for it. By all means give it your best shot, but I wouldn't obsess over T14, T25, or a 99th percentile score.

P.S. Forget about Harvard. They'd most likely reject you with a 180.

Very true. It can be a lot of fun to play "what if" or to create a list of potential law schools (gotta catch em all!) if you get x score and x GPA. But in reality, your time would be much better spent studying for the LSAT and pushing your GPA as high as possible. Do as well as you can, get some concrete numbers, then make your list.

[Dr. Strangelove]

I don't mean to rain on your parade but have you even looked at an LSAT question yet? Banking on a 175+ or even a 170+ is crazy unless you have done well on several PTs. I had an initial score of 169 in January and I'm still not consistently hitting 175 plus. I'm just starting to 172+ every time, but the real test could throw me off. It's a very small margin of error when you get into the 90th percentile. I'm not saying you can't do it, but there's a reason only 1% of test takers score that high. It's because it's very hard to do. I know kids who studied for months and pulled 155s. Not everyone is cut out for it. By all means give it your best shot, but I wouldn't obsess over T14, T25, or a 99th percentile score.

P.S. Forget about Harvard. They'd most likely reject you with a 180.

P.P.S. encyclopediabrown is by far the most depressing LSN user ever. I don't understand his cycle at all. If he doesn't get a T25 acceptance, I'm going to cry for him. It makes me feel terrible about applying for 2011 considering both of my numbers will likely be lower. A 177 is crazy and he's gotten no love. He's not even that far under a 3.0. I'm sitting on a 2.6x and hoping for a 173. This is not going to be pretty.
...

I took one practice LSAT and got a 174. Did the best on Reading Comp (perfect), lost most of my points on Logical Reasoning but have been reading the PowerScore Bible which has given fantastic tips. Did well on Logic Games too (-1) but am tempted to get the Bible for that one too...I plan to take another test this weekend.
I got a 1560 on the SAT's (800 Math/760 Critical Reading).

[jakeoooh]

Since you're still in school, think about adding a 5th year, and concentrate on getting all As with the time you have left. If you're a second semester junior right now, and put off graduating for a year, you could pull that 3.0 (assuming that's where you end up after this semester) up to a 3.4 by getting all As during the next 4 semesters. Even if you don't add a 5th year, all As next year could get you up to a 3.25 by graduation- higher if you took summer classes and/or took 18 or 21 credits during the next 2 full semesters. Either of those GPAs will be an enormous improvement given your target LSAT score.

If you're diagnostic was a 174 you'll probably do well on the real thing, but remember that it all comes down to that one single test. In my own case, my diag was a 173, I studied my ass off (average score across every released test was a 178+, 26 of my last 28 PTs were at 179 or 180), and still ended up with a 175 on test day (first LR section cost me all my missed points- not sure if i bubbled incorrectly or what, am still too frustrated to look at it). My point here is that you're doing yourself a disservice by playing the 'what if' game before you have an official LSAT score in hand. I did (thinking I was a safe bet to score either 179 or 180) and was really bummed out even though I ended up with a strong score.

I'd concentrate on taking summer classes, taking lower level classes on subjects that you're comfortable with, and so-on to try to game your GPA while you still can. I agree with the other posters that splitter cycles are a bitch. I have a 3.0 from a top undergrad, a 175, 8 years work experience, and have wound up with mostly waitlists this cycle, and (thus far) no money. The advise I see thrown around very often here is "don't waste that GPA, re-take the LSAT." You're in a unique position where it sounds like you'll end up with a good LSAT, and can still do something to impact your GPA. So in that vein: Don't waste that LSAT- take as many additional classes as you can to improve your GPA!

[FuManChusco]

I took one practice LSAT and got a 174. Did the best on Reading Comp (perfect), lost most of my points on Logical Reasoning but have been reading the PowerScore Bible which has given fantastic tips. Did well on Logic Games too (-1) but am tempted to get the Bible for that one too...I plan to take another test this weekend.
I got a 1560 on the SAT's (800 Math/760 Critical Reading).

That changes everything. Do everything possible to get above a 3.0. If you can 175+ the real thing, you will almost definitely get at least 1 T14 acceptance.

[pertristis]

I don't know if it's the most popular of opinions, but for the LSAT: take a class. With a class, I went from a 166 practice to a 177 real. With your GPA, you need all the LSAT help you can get.

Vis-a-vis GPA, as has been said, don't graduate after four years. Take all the classes you can, and make sure they're fairly easy. Abstract algebra and diff-EQ might be fun, but they don't get you A's. You at least need to develop some sort of strong upward trend, as you really don't have one now.

[Scarletlady]

I would also start thinking about the "why law school?" question. At some point, 180 or no 180, you will need to answer that for yourself and schools certainly want to know.

I am a bit confused about your commitment level if you are only willing to apply if you get a 170. Is 170 really your make or break number? And if so, why?

[Dr. Strangelove]

I've gotten a lot of good advice here, thanks!

Some comments

1.) 170 is my "make or break" score because I don't think I'll get into a top law school without it given my grades.. or at the very least- I would have to wait till senior year for my GPA to go up. I want to be a lawyer because I think it combines my interests in solving problems, arguing, and dealing with the real world. I am committed but I also have to be practical too about my job prospects.

2.) I've considered spending another year in college. I could always take out loans but I'm a little nervous that law schools will look negatively on the fact that I already have loans and be wary of taking me in as someone who will definitely have to take out loans. That would definitely help my GPA but my parents would probably hate me for doing that (even if they don't have to pay- they'll probably not like having to tell their peers that I'm spending another year in college).

3.) Funny that one of you mentioned Abstract Algebra and Diff EQ since those are both classes I'm taking this semester.. I'm a Math major in college (only have two classes left)- I sometimes question why I stuck with it though.. these classes are incredibly hard to get As in and they are the classes which are going to stop me from getting a 4.0 this semester...I'm about an average math major at my college.. some do better than me, some do worse than me.. and I'm in the middle. I plan to take it easy my senior year though. There are the two math classes I need to take to graduate but the other six can be anything else. I enjoy math a lot but it's really hard to get A's in these classes...

4.) I've considered taking a class but I'm taking the LSAT this June and I don't have the money to pay for it w/o eating up a lot of my other finances.

5.) Say I decide I want to practice in the public sector after law school, would it be better to go to the best law school or the one which is the cheapest?

[BigA]

LSP is a waste of time for you because it doesn't take into account GPA floors and other criteria that weed out people with low GPAs. I say this as someone who did the same thing as you at first. But you're not getting into Cornell with a 3.0, 170.

[stratocophic]

I've gotten a lot of good advice here, thanks!

Some comments

1.) 170 is my "make or break" score because I don't think I'll get into a top law school without it given my grades.. or at the very least- I would have to wait till senior year for my GPA to go up. I want to be a lawyer because I think it combines my interests in solving problems, arguing, and dealing with the real world. I am committed but I also have to be practical too about my job prospects.

2.) I've considered spending another year in college. I could always take out loans but I'm a little nervous that law schools will look negatively on the fact that I already have loans and be wary of taking me in as someone who will definitely have to take out loans. That would definitely help my GPA but my parents would probably hate me for doing that (even if they don't have to pay- they'll probably not like having to tell their peers that I'm spending another year in college).

3.) Funny that one of you mentioned Abstract Algebra and Diff EQ since those are both classes I'm taking this semester.. I'm a Math major in college (only have two classes left)- I sometimes question why I stuck with it though.. these classes are incredibly hard to get As in and they are the classes which are going to stop me from getting a 4.0 this semester...I'm about an average math major at my college.. some do better than me, some do worse than me.. and I'm in the middle. I plan to take it easy my senior year though. There are the two math classes I need to take to graduate but the other six can be anything else. I enjoy math a lot but it's really hard to get A's in these classes...

4.) I've considered taking a class but I'm taking the LSAT this June and I don't have the money to pay for it w/o eating up a lot of my other finances.

5.) Say I decide I want to practice in the public sector after law school, would it be better to go to the best law school or the one which is the cheapest?

1) A 168 will get you into WUSTL, the 170+ would probably net you some decent money.
2) Not worth it. Won't change your GPA enough at this point. My cycle probably wouldn't have been any worse with a 3.0, and yours likely will not see enough improvement to warrant the extra loans.
3) As an engineering major in the middle of the grade-deflated pack, I feel your pain.
4) No need to take a class. Self study with the PS Bibles, be disciplined, and invest a lot of time. If you really want to be a lawyer, you'd better be willing to take the necessary initial steps. You're a math major, so you should be familiar with tedious work that isn't much fun. I still found studying for the LSAT infinitely more enjoyable than any math course I took (3 calcs, diff eq, and linear algebra).
5) Depends, from what I've heard. Better nets you better/more prestigious jobs, plus LRAPs will help you out. Cheaper's advantages are self-evident

[Bauer24]

If you want to solidify your chances at a T14 law school, I'd definitely work a year or two after college.
Northwestern will likely accept you if you take that path.
Study hard for the LSAT and maybe change majors if you still can..
A 174 diagnostic is a good start.