Top Law Schools

Wouldn't be doing ED anywhere.. just getting all my apps in early, hopefully the latest being October 1...
Stats
(3.0 GPA/177 LSAT)
-Will be out of college for one year before law school.
Work Experience: Real Estate Agent/Software Trainer

NYU
Penn
Michigan
Duke
Northwestern
UVA
Cornell
Georgetown
UCLA
UT-Austin
Vanderbilt
USC
Wash U
Boston University
Emory

Bauer24 wrote:Wouldn't be doing ED anywhere.. just getting all my apps in early, hopefully the latest being October 1...
Stats
(3.0 GPA/177 LSAT)
-Will be out of college for one year before law school.
Work Experience: Real Estate Agent/Software Trainer

NYU - out
Penn - WL->out
Michigan - could be in, WL, or out. This is will come to softs.
Duke -out
Northwestern - wl -> in
UVA- out
Cornell -> probably out, maybe in. This will come to softs as well.
Georgetown -> super duper priory secret WL
UCLA WL
UT-Austin WL
Vanderbilt WL or In
USC I think you get in eventuall
Wash U in with money
Boston University in
Emory in

Why wait til Oct 1? If you have an LSAT, get your LOR now, and apply the first day apps are ready.

I'd also throw some apps to Minn and Illinois if you want scholly money.

I'd bet you'll get into one at least of, Mich, NU, Cornell, or Gtown.

Would a recommendation from a Duke Law professor help increase my chances at Duke (or anywhere since I was an active learner in that class.. not quite a gunner but enough that I asked questions and knew answers to stuff..)? If this shows that I'm a good fit for law school despite my lackluster GPA, would law schools consider that a good soft? I know one pretty well from sitting in on one of his classes regularly last semester and am going to get a rec from him. (Couldn't audit the class though..)

Bauer24 wrote:Would a recommendation from a Duke Law professor help increase my chances at Duke...

The law professor will be more credible than most LOR writers when commenting on how you compare to law students. Generally the identity of the writer matters much less than the writer's ability to provide concrete examples of your strengths and to compare you to other people. The fact that he's a law professor is not likely to be a big deal, but it does mean he'll be taken seriously.

Desert Fox wrote:

Bauer24 wrote:Wouldn't be doing ED anywhere.. just getting all my apps in early, hopefully the latest being October 1...
Stats
(3.0 GPA/177 LSAT)
-Will be out of college for one year before law school.
Work Experience: Real Estate Agent/Software Trainer

NYU - out
Penn - WL->out
Michigan - could be in, WL, or out. This is will come to softs.
Duke -out
Northwestern - wl -> in
UVA- out
Cornell -> probably out, maybe in. This will come to softs as well.
Georgetown -> super duper priory secret WL
UCLA WL
UT-Austin WL
Vanderbilt WL or In
USC I think you get in eventuall
Wash U in with money
Boston University in
Emory in

Why wait til Oct 1? If you have an LSAT, get your LOR now, and apply the first day apps are ready.

I'd also throw some apps to Minn and Illinois if you want scholly money.

I'd bet you'll get into one at least of, Mich, NU, Cornell, or Gtown.

These are much more pessimistic than LSP. Any reason?

BigA wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:

Bauer24 wrote:Wouldn't be doing ED anywhere.. just getting all my apps in early, hopefully the latest being October 1...
Stats
(3.0 GPA/177 LSAT)
-Will be out of college for one year before law school.
Work Experience: Real Estate Agent/Software Trainer

NYU - out
Penn - WL->out
Michigan - could be in, WL, or out. This is will come to softs.
Duke -out
Northwestern - wl -> in
UVA- out
Cornell -> probably out, maybe in. This will come to softs as well.
Georgetown -> super duper priory secret WL
UCLA WL
UT-Austin WL
Vanderbilt WL or In
USC I think you get in eventuall
Wash U in with money
Boston University in
Emory in

Why wait til Oct 1? If you have an LSAT, get your LOR now, and apply the first day apps are ready.

I'd also throw some apps to Minn and Illinois if you want scholly money.

I'd bet you'll get into one at least of, Mich, NU, Cornell, or Gtown.

These are much more pessimistic than LSP. Any reason?

Yeah I agree. Definitely out at T6 and maybe some of the GPA whores (Duke and Berkeley), but WL at Texas? Not a lock at USC? I usually trust the Desert Fox, though... so I'm interested to hear.

romothesavior wrote:

BigA wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:
These are much more pessimistic than LSP. Any reason?

Yeah I agree. Definitely out at T6 and maybe some of the GPA whores (Duke and Berkeley), but WL at Texas? Not a lock at USC? I usually trust the Desert Fox, though... so I'm interested to hear.

LSP uses a "index number" where they weight LSAT and GPA. So doing really good on the LSAT balances out the poor GPA. But it doesn't consider GPA cut offs. Texas is a gpa whore. Uo

3.0 is below or just at most schools GPA cut off. Texas rarely goes below 3.3. USC usually takes low GPAs but this year have not.

For splitters looking on LSN is better than LSP.

romothesavior wrote:

BigA wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:

Bauer24 wrote:Wouldn't be doing ED anywhere.. just getting all my apps in early, hopefully the latest being October 1...
Stats
(3.0 GPA/177 LSAT)
-Will be out of college for one year before law school.
Work Experience: Real Estate Agent/Software Trainer

NYU - out
Penn - WL->out
Michigan - could be in, WL, or out. This is will come to softs.
Duke -out
Northwestern - wl -> in
UVA- out
Cornell -> probably out, maybe in. This will come to softs as well.
Georgetown -> super duper priory secret WL
UCLA WL
UT-Austin WL
Vanderbilt WL or In
USC I think you get in eventuall
Wash U in with money
Boston University in
Emory in

Why wait til Oct 1? If you have an LSAT, get your LOR now, and apply the first day apps are ready.

I'd also throw some apps to Minn and Illinois if you want scholly money.

I'd bet you'll get into one at least of, Mich, NU, Cornell, or Gtown.

These are much more pessimistic than LSP. Any reason?

Yeah I agree. Definitely out at T6 and maybe some of the GPA whores (Duke and Berkeley), but WL at Texas? Not a lock at USC? I usually trust the Desert Fox, though... so I'm interested to hear.

LSN lines up with him on those two, fwiw

Desert Fox wrote:

romothesavior wrote:

BigA wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:
These are much more pessimistic than LSP. Any reason?

Yeah I agree. Definitely out at T6 and maybe some of the GPA whores (Duke and Berkeley), but WL at Texas? Not a lock at USC? I usually trust the Desert Fox, though... so I'm interested to hear.

LSP uses a "index number" where they weight LSAT and GPA. So doing really good on the LSAT balances out the poor GPA. But it doesn't consider GPA cut offs. Texas is a gpa whore. Uo

3.0 is below or just at most schools GPA cut off. Texas rarely goes below 3.3. USC usually takes low GPAs but this year have not.

For splitters looking on LSN is better than LSP.

Desert Fox, always a wise man. I just figured most law schools were like me and went at a 177 (save for the T6).

romothesavior wrote: Desert Fox, always a wise man. I just figured most law schools were like me and went at a 177 (save for the T6).

Well they do, then they go at the 3.0.

A 3.0 makes T6, B, and Duke almost impossible. It makes Michigan, Penn and UVa very hard. Usually good softs, and ED, or something. Cornell is unlikely but iffy. Gtown, and NU are pretty good though.

OP should be lucky he is at 3.0. Below three and its only NU.

Desert Fox wrote:For splitters looking on LSN is better than LSP.

This. LSP was meaningless for me, but LSN's been 100% accurate when expectations are adjusted for mid-January apps. LSP might hold true for splitters from WUSTL on down, but certainly not above. My cycle's been bimodal thus far, WL at T13s and GTTTown with acceptances below. Although TBF Vandy would have WLed me as well if their undergrad hadn't put me through the miserable 4 years of engineering that led to me being a splitter.

Desert Fox wrote:

romothesavior wrote: Desert Fox, always a wise man. I just figured most law schools were like me and went at a 177 (save for the T6).

Well they do, then they go at the 3.0.

A 3.0 makes T6, B, and Duke almost impossible. It makes Michigan, Penn and UVa very hard. Usually good softs, and ED, or something. Cornell is unlikely but iffy. Gtown, and NU are pretty good though.

OP should be lucky he is at 3.0. Below three and its only NU.

Duke's not happening. It's more likely than T6/B, though. As a splitter who's put extensive research into the subject, I can tell you that a Duke WL is the best case scenario. Something like 2/150 applicants were admitted to Duke with splitter numbers (according to their LSAC profile), and I'd bet they were either URM or admitted in July off the WL.

stratocophic wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:For splitters looking on LSN is better than LSP.

This. LSP was meaningless for me, but LSN's been 100% accurate when expectations are adjusted for mid-January apps. LSP might hold true for splitters from WUSTL on down, but certainly not above. My cycle's been bimodal thus far, WL at T13s and GTTTown with acceptances below. Although TBF Vandy would have WLed me as well if their undergrad hadn't put me through the miserable 4 years of engineering that led to me being a splitter.

Desert Fox wrote:

romothesavior wrote: Desert Fox, always a wise man. I just figured most law schools were like me and went at a 177 (save for the T6).

Well they do, then they go at the 3.0.

A 3.0 makes T6, B, and Duke almost impossible. It makes Michigan, Penn and UVa very hard. Usually good softs, and ED, or something. Cornell is unlikely but iffy. Gtown, and NU are pretty good though.

OP should be lucky he is at 3.0. Below three and its only NU.

Duke's not happening. It's more likely than T6/B, though. As a splitter who's put extensive research into the subject, I can tell you that a Duke WL is the best case scenario. Something like 2/150 applicants were admitted to Duke with splitter numbers (according to their LSAC profile), and I'd bet they were either URM or admitted in July off the WL.

I used both LSP and LSN during my "research" phase, but I'm not a splitter so I don't have a whole lot of experience with it. I was fortunate to have very predictable numbers (168/3.8ish), so my cycle went exactly as expected. I just figured that since LSAT is weighed a little more heavily than GPA, that 177 could make up for the sub-par GPA in lower T10. But hey, ya learn somethin new every day.

romothesavior wrote:

stratocophic wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:For splitters looking on LSN is better than LSP.

This. LSP was meaningless for me, but LSN's been 100% accurate when expectations are adjusted for mid-January apps. LSP might hold true for splitters from WUSTL on down, but certainly not above. My cycle's been bimodal thus far, WL at T13s and GTTTown with acceptances below. Although TBF Vandy would have WLed me as well if their undergrad hadn't put me through the miserable 4 years of engineering that led to me being a splitter.

Desert Fox wrote:

romothesavior wrote: Desert Fox, always a wise man. I just figured most law schools were like me and went at a 177 (save for the T6).

Well they do, then they go at the 3.0.

A 3.0 makes T6, B, and Duke almost impossible. It makes Michigan, Penn and UVa very hard. Usually good softs, and ED, or something. Cornell is unlikely but iffy. Gtown, and NU are pretty good though.

OP should be lucky he is at 3.0. Below three and its only NU.

Duke's not happening. It's more likely than T6/B, though. As a splitter who's put extensive research into the subject, I can tell you that a Duke WL is the best case scenario. Something like 2/150 applicants were admitted to Duke with splitter numbers (according to their LSAC profile), and I'd bet they were either URM or admitted in July off the WL.

I used both LSP and LSN during my "research" phase, but I'm not a splitter so I don't have a whole lot of experience with it. I was fortunate to have very predictable numbers (168/3.8ish), so my cycle went exactly as expected. I just figured that since LSAT is weighed a little more heavily than GPA, that 177 could make up for the sub-par GPA in lower T10. But hey, ya learn somethin new every day.

Eh, depends on the school. UVA would be OK with it, as would Northwestern with WE. Duke's Berkeley-light for admissions purposes.

Edited for acronym fail.

Wow thanks for all the good advice everyone!
Does UT-Austin only have a GPA cutoff for non-Texas residents?
I know someone with a 3.05 who got into Texas Law but he's from Texas...

Bauer24 wrote:Wow thanks for all the good advice everyone!
Does UT-Austin only have a GPA cutoff for non-Texas residents? I know someone with a 3.05 who got into Texas Law but he's from Texas...

No clue, but I think UT has a residency % requirement, which would make it easier to get into if you were a Texan.

I have to decide if I want to send an early app to a T14 school.
Problems though

1.) I'm not really committed to any law school right now. If I really want to go somewhere- it's because of the name and that's it.
2.) I'm kind of hoping for scholarship money, especially if I can transfer to a better law school after the first year.. I think I got my shit together enough to succeed academically.

That's why I'm hoping applying early w/o ED will be enough to make my chances even a little better.

And finally, my gut feeling is that this would simply come off as arrogant and risky... but retaking the LSAT is out of the question, right?
1-Even if I do better, I think law schools would see it as a negative that I retook a freaking 177!
2-The probability is high that my score will go down.

Bauer24 wrote:I have to decide if I want to send an early app to a T14 school.
Problems though

1.) I'm not really committed to any law school right now. If I really want to go somewhere- it's because of the name and that's it.
2.) I'm kind of hoping for scholarship money, especially if I can transfer to a better law school after the first year.. I think I got my shit together enough to succeed academically.

That's why I'm hoping applying early w/o ED will be enough to make my chances even a little better.

And finally, my gut feeling is that this would simply come off as arrogant and risky... but retaking the LSAT is out of the question, right?
1-Even if I do better, I think law schools would see it as a negative that I retook a freaking 177!
2-The probability is high that my score will go down.

Your cycle will go exactly the same as if you got a 180.

You will get into one of: Mich, Penn, NU, and Gtown but you won't get money.

If you are looking for money, look at WUSTL, UIUC, Minnesota, and W&L.

I'll weigh in with my results, for whatever it's worth. My numbers are a 3.4/175, will have been out of school two years and I didn't get my apps in until January. I am currently in at NYU, rejected at Boalt and UT, Waitlisted at UVA and Emory (wtf?). Still waiting on Chicago, where I think I have a chance, and Harvard/Stanford, who I expect to say no.

This is to say that I wouldn't be too optimistic about any of the T10 schools. That said I think, especially with state schools, getting your app in early if you are out of state is a big deal, and I obviously didn't do that. If you're looking for optimism I'd look there. Also, if you're in state at one of those schools you will have much better chances.

I'm thinking of ED to Michigan.
Is this a bad idea or would it be smarter for me to see if I could get a scholarship from Illinois/Minnesota/Wash U?
I want to work in Chicago after law school.

stratocophic wrote:This. LSP was meaningless for me, but LSN's been 100% accurate when expectations are adjusted for mid-January apps. LSP might hold true for splitters from WUSTL on down, but certainly not above. My cycle's been bimodal thus far, WL at T13s and GTTTown with acceptances below. Although TBF Vandy would have WLed me as well if their undergrad hadn't put me through the miserable 4 years of engineering that led to me being a splitter.

For splitters, LSN >>> LSP on all levels, but especially for very low 3's and sub 3's. Looking at trends, rather than at overall indexes is extremely important.

Bauer24 wrote:I'm thinking of ED to Michigan.
Is this a bad idea or would it be smarter for me to see if I could get a scholarship from Illinois/Minnesota/Wash U?
I want to work in Chicago after law school.

I'd strongly consider making a commitment to a ED to one school that you'd go to regardless of money. I wish I had - might not have resulted in anything different, but wish I did. Here's the thing - you will have to eventually make the decision anyway. Would you take x amount from y school over a particular T10? If the answer is no now, why not maximize your chance to get into one of those schools? I wanted to "keep my options open" to take a scholly over rank, but now I'm just having to make the decision now instead of earlier.

You're a splitter, so its hard to predict your cycle. Schools where you think you might be a lock in might WL/reject you because they think you'll just attend a better school since you have such a high LSAT. And its unfortunate when many schools (or worse, most of your schools) assume that. It surprised me to see so many people on here who split high and were left in the dust at schools I would have thought would be a lock.

Bauer24 wrote:I'm thinking of ED to Michigan.
Is this a bad idea or would it be smarter for me to see if I could get a scholarship from Illinois/Minnesota/Wash U?
I want to work in Chicago after law school.

I wouldn't ED at Michigan. If you are certain about Chicago, I'd be looking at Northwestern.

I wouldn't ED there, you'll probably get in anyway.