Top Law Schools

...

Shrimps wrote:I have a 3.0 GPA (one of the top LACs in the nation though), Econ major, some tough classes (multivariable calculus, computer science, etc.). Still, pretty low. Another excuse: not a native English speaker, in the country for less than 3 years by the start of college, back then still struggling with the language.

White. Out of college for a number of years, unexciting job.

Been testing in the low 170's, but hopefully will improve by June (let's assume I get at least 171, otherwise the question is irrelevant - to me). What are my chances at, say, Cornell, UVa (reaches, I suppose), Washington U, Boston U or some other top 20's?

With a 170 good at BU and WUSTL.

I'd also apply to Northwestern, Penn, Georgetown and Michigan.

In fact I'd apply ED to NU, Penn, Michigan or Uva.

Or you could stop making excuses and take responsibility/accept that:

1) You didn't work hard enough.
2) You just aren't that smart.

go to lawschoolpredictor.com and play around with different LSAT scores, since no one here can really help you til you have one. Also check out the graphs on lawschoolnumbers.com

since you're not URM and (like most people) seem to have no amazing softs to speak of (though presumably you could write a pretty good diversity statement) LSP should do an ok job predicting, though it's not the most reliable for splitters..I dunno if you'd count as one?

Also, is the 3.0 your LSAC gpa? I'd get that figured out before worrying too much about what schools are reaches/targets etc.

crazycanuck wrote:Or you could stop making excuses and take responsibility/accept that:

1) You didn't work hard enough.

Oh, definitely.

2) You just aren't that smart.

Standardized testing indicates that I'm in the top 1% of the population by IQ. Not much help though for this particular slacker. Ah, well, at least I've squandered my youth in a stress-free environment.

nixxers wrote: (though presumably you could write a pretty good diversity statement)

You think in my statement I should concentrate on my foreign-ness and, um, the cultural diversity I can bring to their school and try to avoid talking about my work experience?

Shrimps wrote:

nixxers wrote: (though presumably you could write a pretty good diversity statement)

You think in my statement I should concentrate on my foreign-ness and, um, the cultural diversity I can bring to their school and try to avoid talking about my work experience?

haha for sure. I mean, in your diversity statement, which is separate from your personal statement. essentially this is the essay that answers the question on all the applications that is like "anything else you'd like to add? esp. if it has to do with your background". it doesn't have to be about being international, I'm white and well off and still wrote one that doesn't seem to have hurt me. it's just that being international seems like a pretty obvious topic for a diversity statement, as opposed to a job you described as "unexciting" :p

Desert Fox wrote:With a 170 good at BU and WUSTL.

I'd also apply to Northwestern, Penn, Georgetown and Michigan.

In fact I'd apply ED to NU, Penn, Michigan or Uva.

I wouldn't even make the top quartile by LSAT at most of these places (Penn 171+, UVa 171, others 170). With my GPA clearly in the bottom 25%, aren't you being a bit overly optimistic for my chances?

Shrimps wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:With a 170 good at BU and WUSTL.

I'd also apply to Northwestern, Penn, Georgetown and Michigan.

In fact I'd apply ED to NU, Penn, Michigan or Uva.

I wouldn't even make the top quartile by LSAT at most of these places (Penn 171+, UVa 171, others 170). With my GPA clearly in the bottom 25%, aren't you being a bit overly optimistic for my chances?

You've got a small shot at each.

If you get a 171 I'd ED at Uva in early September. They will give you a decision by 15 days after you go complete. If you don't get in, apply ED at NU, Mich or Penn.

You really want to aim for over 171. Aim for 175.

crazycanuck wrote:Or you could stop making excuses and take responsibility/accept that:

1) You didn't work hard enough.
2) You just aren't that smart.

Yea, write this in your Personal Statement.

Shrimps wrote:some tough classes (multivariable calculus, computer science, etc.).

LOL @ "tough classes" that freshmen and even high school students take. These are exactly the classes that non-English speakers can do well in.

im_blue wrote:

Shrimps wrote:some tough classes (multivariable calculus, computer science, etc.).

LOL @ "tough classes" that freshmen and even high school students take. These are exactly the classes that non-English speakers can do well in.

It is a well known fact, the foreigns is good at math!

With a 171 I think you have a great chance at breaking into T14. You can ED at UVA, GULC, and one other school of your choice within the same cycle.

im_blue wrote:

Shrimps wrote:some tough classes (multivariable calculus, computer science, etc.).

LOL @ "tough classes" that freshmen and even high school students take. These are exactly the classes that non-English speakers can do well in.

I bet calc and cs are harder classes than most TLSers ever took. Though Calc3 was pretty fucking easy compared to Calc2. And CS runs the gambit from glorified typing so extremely hard theoretical math at most universities.

Desert Fox wrote:

im_blue wrote:

Shrimps wrote:some tough classes (multivariable calculus, computer science, etc.).

LOL @ "tough classes" that freshmen and even high school students take. These are exactly the classes that non-English speakers can do well in.

I bet calc and cs are harder classes than most TLSers ever took. Though Calc3 was pretty fucking easy compared to Calc2. And CS runs the gambit from glorified typing so extremely hard theoretical math at most universities.

Yes, Calc3 is easy compared to Calc2 definitely. I used to be a physics major, and so took Calc3 freshman year after struggling with BC Calc in HS, and it was infinitely easier (even though I got a 5 on the BC exam, that's only because of the ridiculous curve.)

Besides, anyone that says calc 3 is a hard class, does not know what a hard class is.

Why is everyone recommending UVa and NU? I thought Cornell (3.24-3.84, 166-168) was the one T14 law school that would be far more receptive to a high LSAT/low GPA splitter, at least looking at their numbers alone.

Shrimps wrote:Why is everyone recommending UVa and NU? I thought Cornell (3.24-3.84, 166-168) was the one T14 law school that would be far more receptive to a high LSAT/low GPA splitter, at least looking at their numbers alone.

UVA has a 15 day turnaround, so you are not really out anything for trying to ED there. They are also known to give splitters and reverse splitters a lot better look if you ED as opposed to if you RD, in stort ED can really give you a big bump at UVA. I would imagine if you could get a 172+ you would have a great shot if you ED. Northwestern has basically established a requirement of at least one year of work experience post undergrand to gain admission (something like 99% of the student body has at least one year, with an overwhelming majority having at least two). Northwestern also seems to be the most willing to look past a bad UGPA as long as there is some work experience. I do not think it really matters what you did post undergrad as long as you were working (I specifically asked the dean of admissions if I would be better off coming straight out of undergrand or driving a bus for a year and then applying and he told me I would be better off driving a bus). I would ED to UVA the first day you can in the fall, wait the 15 days and if you don't get in then ED to NW.

Shrimps wrote:Why is everyone recommending UVa and NU? I thought Cornell (3.24-3.84, 166-168) was the one T14 law school that would be far more receptive to a high LSAT/low GPA splitter, at least looking at their numbers alone.

I'm not sure if it's clear that the 3.24 was properly reported. I haven't asked myself, but I've been told people have confirmed with the admissions office that it was erroneously reported. In any event, even if correct, it does seem a bit anomalous. Cornell has rather steadily been around 3.5-3.8, 166-168 for a few years now. It's also a school that has traditionally cared more about GPA than many of its counterparts. GULC and NU are known to be the biggest LSAT whores of the T14. And by that I mean, they'll be more receptive to splitters than any of the other schools. I've also heard it suggested that Cornell strives to continue to be the most diverse school. So they may be more forgiving of lower GPAs for strong softs, URM status, etc.

With 3.0ish/170ish, my first thought is that GULC and NU are your best bets. After that, Michigan, UVa, and Cornell (and these are reaches to be sure). I don't really know that you'd have much of a shot at the remaining schools absent some really redeeming soft.

I'd also consider WUSTL (they devour 170+ LSATs). Also look at Texas, Vanderbilt, USC, UCLA, and WUSTL.

Caveat: None of what I have said has been confirmed. This has just been my understanding. Hope that's informative.

It was. Thanks a lot, all who answered my questions.

Looks like UVa ED, then NU ED, then RD the rest of the bottom 7 of the T14 , plus at least 10 from the T15-30.