Top Law Schools

After attending Wake, seeing the facilities first hand and looking over employment information (theirs and other collected data from other sites like Vault or NLJ hiring charts) it seems to me that Wake is a lot lower than seems to make sense. Their undergraduate education is ranked 25th in the country so you wouldn't think national reputation would be an issue, they seem to have a strong alumni network and they place relatively well (top 10% seems to be about average outside the t14) to be ranked in the high 30s. It seems like they should almost be in the high 20s instead. I was just hoping someone could give me some rationale that they think might contribute to Wake's current ranking as I'm getting ready to make my decision and as much as I wish I could get passed the rankings, it's easier said than done. Thanks!

high 20s, high 30s, same difference.

moneybagsphd wrote:high 20s, high 30s, same difference.

touche. Not disagreeing but I'm just trying to see if maybe there is something I'm missing in looking at the school

So you're saying a school's ranking should have more to do with the opportunities it provides its graduates for substantive legal employment than academic prestige, per capita expenditures, or the number of volumes in a law library?

What is your problem?

fountino wrote:So you're saying a school's ranking should have more to do with the opportunities it provides its graduates for substantive legal employment than academic prestige, per capita expenditures, or the number of volumes in a law library?

What is your problem?

HAHA great point, I obviously do not work at US News

Great question. Anyone? Anyone?

If that's the case, where should NDLS rank? Reputation wise, Notre Dame is T14.

BeerMaker wrote:If that's the case, where should NDLS rank? Reputation wise, Notre Dame is T14.

I dunno about that, buddy.

SPAM

stillwater wrote:

BeerMaker wrote:If that's the case, where should NDLS rank? Reputation wise, Notre Dame is T14.

I dunno about that, buddy.

agree with stillwater.

BeerMaker wrote:If that's the case, where should NDLS rank? Reputation wise, Notre Dame is T14.

Lolz. Maybe back when Rudy played

The ranking system is complete nonsense over at USNWR. In my opinion, a school's rank should be based on employment numbers and not much else. In this regard, I think that the NLJ250 Go-To Schools list, though by no means perfect, is a better indicator of a school's relative rank against other schools. There are some pretty large inconsistencies between Go-To Schools rank and USNWR rank (i.e., BC - ranked 29 by USNWR; ranked 18 by NLJ250)

OP seeks a rationale for WFU's USNews ranking: The reason is the competition.

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fanmingrui wrote:

JetsFan1990 wrote:The ranking system is complete nonsense over at USNWR. In my opinion, a school's rank should be based on employment numbers and not much else. In this regard, I think that the NLJ250 Go-To Schools list, though by no means perfect, is a better indicator of a school's relative rank against other schools. There are some pretty large inconsistencies between Go-To Schools rank and USNWR rank (i.e., BC - ranked 29 by USNWR; ranked 18 by NLJ250)

Cool story bro.

Thanks, bro.

But seriously, do you think that one ought to consider the NLJ250 rank or USNWR rank more heavily when making a decision?

What about self-selection bias? If only 15% of the class is actually applying for NLJ250 jobs, and the school places 15% in NLJ250 positions then the school has 100% placement rate at NLJ250 firms. This is a horrible statistic. When you rely on it, you are assuming everyone applied for these jobs. Where I go to school, three-quarters of the class has no desire to practice in the NLJ250. It just doesn't line up geographically. Wake is in the same boat.

I don't know of many schools (outside of TTTs) whose students aren't ALL (or at least close to all) gunning for these jobs or clerkships.

BTW: "no desire" isn't the same thing as recognizing no chance.

That's a pretty large assumption JetsFan. And while I would agree with you with regard to schools where students hail from big cities, most of my peers come from midsize or small cities where these firms simply don't exist. When students choose to return home, many take jobs at midsize firms that don't rank on the NLJ250 list. By the way, we place well (especially with clerkships). The prevailing mentality on this board (that everyone wants to work in biglaw) just frustrates me.

I can tell you that it's not always about the top 250. The number 1 person in our class last year chose to work in public service; I worked for a V50 firm and a boutique firm and loved the boutique firm and chose to work there after graduation, so that will not reflect in our placement numbers.

As a Wake student, I can tell you that the rankings are entirely driven by things like the GPA and LSAT numbers for admits, employment figures which are all doctored, and other figures. I know I am biased, but I think Wake is a great school in terms of class size, faculty-student relations, alumni networking (I know multiple people who have jobs simply because Wake people love to help Wake students...and then those firms continue to hire because of the product we put out..I can tell you that I am going out of state and I plan on offering as much help as I can to any Wake student who wants to break in to the same market.)

The thing is, I believe that Wake is better than its current "ranking," but at the end of the day, USNWR cares more about quantifiable figures. It's like judging art by what sells for the highest price.

placencia wrote:I can tell you that it's not always about the top 250. The number 1 person in our class last year chose to work in public service; I worked for a V50 firm and a boutique firm and loved the boutique firm and chose to work there after graduation, so that will not reflect in our placement numbers.

As a Wake student, I can tell you that the rankings are entirely driven by things like the GPA and LSAT numbers for admits, employment figures which are all doctored, and other figures. I know I am biased, but I think Wake is a great school in terms of class size, faculty-student relations, alumni networking (I know multiple people who have jobs simply because Wake people love to help Wake students...and then those firms continue to hire because of the product we put out..I can tell you that I am going out of state and I plan on offering as much help as I can to any Wake student who wants to break in to the same market.)

The thing is, I believe that Wake is better than its current "ranking," but at the end of the day, USNWR cares more about quantifiable figures. It's like judging art by what sells for the highest price.

Why did you bump this to add... this.

Wake is a good law school but it competes with two better law schools in the same state, Duke and UNC. Not to mention there are also 4 other law schools in the state, making 7 total.

Schools like Alabama, Iowa, Wisconsin, or Colorado though similarly ranked, face little to no competition in their respective states and therefore dominate their legal markets.

There really isnt a whole lot of competition with Duke. Duke students, if they stay in state almost exclusively go for Biglaw. While Wake does place a respectable amount in Biglaw, most students that I know (myself included) will be working Mid-law, boutiques and for smallish firms in places like Charlotte, Greensboro, Winston-Salem, Ashville and to some extent Raleigh area. As for UNC, while there is no line of demarcation in the state, the Wake name carries you quite far in Western Carolina and has really opened a substantial number of doors, where I am not sure the UNC name would have. Not to mention our smaller, but extremely dedicated alumni base that really help us in job hunting.

TL;DR: There is competition, not as much as you think and Wake is much like an Alabama, Iowa of Colorado in Western NC.