c/o 2019 Applicant Compendium (2015 - 2016) Forum

benwyatt · Post by **benwyatt** » Fri Oct 30, 2015 7:17 pm

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jettison63 · Post by **jettison63** » Fri Oct 30, 2015 7:19 pm

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The Abyss · Post by **The Abyss** » Fri Oct 30, 2015 7:20 pm

jettison63 wrote:
benwyatt wrote:
theugg wrote:
benwyatt wrote:I can't really talk though, ugg. I recently got into an argument at like 2 in the morning about whether or not the natural state of a doorway was open or closed. I vote closed. The person I was talking to vehemently disagreed.
Gotta be open. It's just a wall otherwise
Except a doorway is an area that is specifically designed to be blocked by a door.

I'm enjoying this and hope it is the essay prompt on the Dec LSAT....

The Abyss · Post by **The Abyss** » Fri Oct 30, 2015 7:26 pm

benwyatt wrote:
theugg wrote:
benwyatt wrote:I can't really talk though, ugg. I recently got into an argument at like 2 in the morning about whether or not the natural state of a doorway was open or closed. I vote closed. The person I was talking to vehemently disagreed.
Gotta be open. It's just a wall otherwise
Except a doorway is an area that is specifically designed to be blocked by a door.

I'm going to have to agree with Ben here. Also I really don't like doorways being open, it freaks me out for some reason.

benwyatt · Post by **benwyatt** » Fri Oct 30, 2015 7:30 pm

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The Abyss · Post by **The Abyss** » Fri Oct 30, 2015 7:34 pm

benwyatt wrote:
The Abyss wrote:
benwyatt wrote:
theugg wrote:
benwyatt wrote:I can't really talk though, ugg. I recently got into an argument at like 2 in the morning about whether or not the natural state of a doorway was open or closed. I vote closed. The person I was talking to vehemently disagreed.
Gotta be open. It's just a wall otherwise
Except a doorway is an area that is specifically designed to be blocked by a door.
I'm going to have to agree with Ben here. Also I really don't like doorways being open, it freaks me out for some reason.
I don't mind doorways being open but I hate when they're left open solely because someone failed to pull it all the way closed.
That's what actually sparked the conversation in the first place.

Yeah, that bothers me too. I just like everything uniform.

The Abyss · Post by **The Abyss** » Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:37 pm

My son is really, really obsessed with smooth jazz and has incredible temper tantrums when we try to turn it off. He dances and moos like a cow while he listens. Children are strange y'all.

Hildegard15 · Post by **Hildegard15** » Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:57 pm

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scone · Post by **scone** » Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:59 pm

benwyatt wrote:
theugg wrote:
benwyatt wrote:I can't really talk though, ugg. I recently got into an argument at like 2 in the morning about whether or not the natural state of a doorway was open or closed. I vote closed. The person I was talking to vehemently disagreed.
Gotta be open. It's just a wall otherwise
Except a doorway is an area that is specifically designed to be blocked by a door.

Well, a doorway has to be openable, as otherwise it is a wall. A doorway does not have to be closable - it is still a doorway if the door is broken and won't ever close properly (whereas, conversely, if it will never open, it is not).

If the natural state of a doorway were closed, it would derive a contradiction, as it is not essential to doorways that they even be closable.

So the natural state of a doorway is open.

The Abyss · Post by **The Abyss** » Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:03 pm

Hildegard15 wrote:
The Abyss wrote:My son is really, really obsessed with smooth jazz and has incredible temper tantrums when we try to turn it off. He dances and moos like a cow while he listens. Children are strange y'all.
Not gonna lie, I like dogs better

"You just keep getting another dog. One after another. That's the secret of life. Life is a series of dogs." - George Carlin

Dogs are definitely easier, but there's nothing like waking up and seeing a little mini you smiling back at you ready to take on the day.

Hildegard15 · Post by **Hildegard15** » Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:06 pm

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Hildegard15 · Post by **Hildegard15** » Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:07 pm

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benwyatt · Post by **benwyatt** » Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:07 pm

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The Abyss · Post by **The Abyss** » Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:08 pm

scone wrote:
benwyatt wrote:
theugg wrote:
benwyatt wrote:I can't really talk though, ugg. I recently got into an argument at like 2 in the morning about whether or not the natural state of a doorway was open or closed. I vote closed. The person I was talking to vehemently disagreed.
Gotta be open. It's just a wall otherwise
Except a doorway is an area that is specifically designed to be blocked by a door.
Well, a doorway has to be openable, as otherwise it is a wall. A doorway does not have to be closable - it is still a doorway if the door is broken and won't ever close properly (whereas, conversely, if it will never open, it is not).

If the natural state of a doorway were closed, it would derive a contradiction, as it is not essential to doorways that they even be closable.

So the natural state of a doorway is open.

Semantics, but a doorway requires a door or else it's a passageway or something else not a doorway. It there's a door, it can be closed.

barley · Post by **barley** » Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:18 pm

The Abyss · Post by **The Abyss** » Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:21 pm

barley wrote:Are you all high

You're about five pages too late

A bit buzzed, but I find conversations like this very fascinating.

benwyatt · Post by **benwyatt** » Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:21 pm

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jettison63 · Post by **jettison63** » Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:29 pm

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barley · Post by **barley** » Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:34 pm

benwyatt wrote:
The Abyss wrote:
barley wrote:Are you all high

You're about five pages too late

A bit buzzed, but I find conversations like this very fascinating.
This is basically my version of pillowtalk.

Because I'm insufferable.

You can say that again

[+] Spoiler: <3

scone · Post by **scone** » Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:44 pm

benwyatt wrote:
scone wrote:
Well, a doorway has to be openable, as otherwise it is a wall. A doorway does not have to be closable - it is still a doorway if the door is broken and won't ever close properly (whereas, conversely, if it will never open, it is not).

If the natural state of a doorway were closed, it would derive a contradiction, as it is not essential to doorways that they even be closable.

So the natural state of a doorway is open.
I disagree with your foundational premise. I could contend that a doorway with a broken door is simply an arch or a hole in the wall, but instead I'll take a different approach. If I grant you that a doorway equipped with a broken door is still a doorway, you must also grant me that a doorway perpetually blocked by a door with a broken lock still possesses the inherent nature of a doorway and is markedly different from walls in a number of ways.

It seems to me that you're confusing "natural state" with "usable state." A doorway with a broken door is still usable by people, but it's not called a peopleway, it's called a doorway.

Haha, this is a wonderfully bizarre argument to be drawn into.

Firstly, it is a good thing you don't contend that a doorway with a broken door is simply an arch or a hole in the wall - I've recently had some problems with the door to my bedroom not closing properly, and during that time it did not cease to be a doorway, nor would it if I never got round to fixing it (indeed, even if it turned out I could not fix it).

So you grant me that a doorway equipped with a broken door is still a doorway. However, I do not grant in return that "a doorway perpetually blocked by a door with a broken lock still possesses the inherent nature of a doorway". I would happily concede that it was once a doorway should it ever have functioned, but not that it still is or possesses the nature of a doorway.

Consider a builder. They create one doorway where the door is incorrectly sized for the hole, so it won't close properly. They create another 'doorway' which can never be opened. The former is clearly still a doorway despite the design flaw. The latter may be called a trompe l'oeil, an oddly uneven wall, or whatever, but it is clearly not a doorway: what is there to distinguish it from the surrounding wall? Its materials? That won't do, as many walls have varied materials. The design? It's just a trompe l'oeil. So 'doorways' which were never openable are not actual doorways.

What about doorways which were once openable but are no longer, and can never be again? It is clear they were doorways; it is also clear from the previous argument that if they were created in their current unopenable state they would not be doorways. To maintain that these are still doorways would require arguing that their history as a doorway has a deciding influence on whether they still are: 'once a doorway, always a doorway'. To me, this doesn't seem tenable, as doorways can clearly be demolished, filled in etc.

Thus, I will happily retain the premise in question: that a doorway has to be openable. So my conclusion, that the natural state of a doorway is open, still holds.

Muiraquita · Post by **Muiraquita** » Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:50 pm

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The Abyss · Post by **The Abyss** » Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:53 pm

scone wrote:
benwyatt wrote:
scone wrote:
Well, a doorway has to be openable, as otherwise it is a wall. A doorway does not have to be closable - it is still a doorway if the door is broken and won't ever close properly (whereas, conversely, if it will never open, it is not).

If the natural state of a doorway were closed, it would derive a contradiction, as it is not essential to doorways that they even be closable.

So the natural state of a doorway is open.
I disagree with your foundational premise. I could contend that a doorway with a broken door is simply an arch or a hole in the wall, but instead I'll take a different approach. If I grant you that a doorway equipped with a broken door is still a doorway, you must also grant me that a doorway perpetually blocked by a door with a broken lock still possesses the inherent nature of a doorway and is markedly different from walls in a number of ways.

It seems to me that you're confusing "natural state" with "usable state." A doorway with a broken door is still usable by people, but it's not called a peopleway, it's called a doorway.
Haha, this is a wonderfully bizarre argument to be drawn into.

Firstly, it is a good thing you don't contend that a doorway with a broken door is simply an arch or a hole in the wall - I've recently had some problems with the door to my bedroom not closing properly, and during that time it did not cease to be a doorway, nor would it if I never got round to fixing it (indeed, even if it turned out I could not fix it).

So you grant me that a doorway equipped with a broken door is still a doorway. However, I do not grant in return that "a doorway perpetually blocked by a door with a broken lock still possesses the inherent nature of a doorway". I would happily concede that it was once a doorway should it ever have functioned, but not that it still is or possesses the nature of a doorway.

Consider a builder. They create one doorway where the door is incorrectly sized for the hole, so it won't close properly. They create another 'doorway' which can never be opened. The former is clearly still a doorway despite the design flaw. The latter may be called a trompe l'oeil, an oddly uneven wall, or whatever, but it is clearly not a doorway: what is there to distinguish it from the surrounding wall? Its materials? That won't do, as many walls have varied materials. The design? It's just a trompe l'oeil. So 'doorways' which were never openable are not actual doorways.

What about doorways which were once openable but are no longer, and can never be again? It is clear they were doorways; it is also clear from the previous argument that if they were created in their current unopenable state they would not be doorways. To maintain that these are still doorways would require arguing that their history as a doorway has a deciding influence on whether they still are: 'once a doorway, always a doorway'. To me, this doesn't seem tenable, as doorways can clearly be demolished, filled in etc.

Thus, I will happily retain the premise in question: that a doorway has to be openable. So my conclusion, that the natural state of a doorway is open, still holds.

If something is openable, doesn't it make much more sense for its natural state to be closed?

scone · Post by **scone** » Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:57 pm

jettison63 wrote: About to leave for Halloween in general. BUT, this has been on mind. And I think that the natural state of a doorway is closed, while its natural function is to be opened (and then to return to its natural closed state). Similarly, the natural state of my washing machine is is off, but its natural function is to wash clothes.

We are taking the walls as a given, I think. But if the doorway was supposed to be open, why have walls? We essentially have walls to close off and divide space. The doorway is to provide a temporary opening into a space that was designed to be closed......

This could just as easily be written to defend the opposite thesis: the natural state of a doorway is open, while its natural function is to be closed. Openings in walls are there to open up and join space. The doorway is to provide a temporary closing off of a space which was designed to be joined.

The Abyss wrote: If something is openable, doesn't it make much more sense for it's natural state to be closed?

If something is openable but not necessarily closable, then it would not make sense for its natural state to be something it only can be contingently, if at all, as opposed to something it can be necessarily, no?

gobears!! · Post by **gobears!!** » Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:01 pm

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ffamran · Post by **ffamran** » Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:04 pm

I'm going with closed because when you load into The Sims, the natural state of all of the doors is closed. Doors also come as closed when you purchase them.

Also, consider the existence of spring hinges. If you've installed it so that the natural state of the door is open, you've installed it wrong.