Top Law Schools

Creating this for any fellow applicants to Wisconsin Madison for class of 2017.

Some general info: http://www.law.wisc.edu/ and http://www.top-law-schools.com/wisconsi ... chool.html

Rankings: #33 in U.S. News and World Report

Ave GPA: 3.33-3.72
Ave. LSAT: 157-164
Acceptance rate: 27%

Recent enrollment and employment stats: http://www.law.wisc.edu/prospective/stats.html

Applications due April 1

Saying hi.

Checking In.

Apllication recieved 4 OCT, with a current status of "Processing".

If you guys have any questions about Madison, feel free to post or pm me. I was an instate student, went there for 1L, then transferred to a t14. Loved my year in Madison, though.

buckythebadger wrote:If you guys have any questions about Madison, feel free to post or pm me. I was an instate student, went there for 1L, then transferred to a t14. Loved my year in Madison, though.

Why the transfer, if I may ask. I realize t14 definitely is desirable but what made you want to leave UW. I ask because I'm currently in Madison working at Epic but i'm considering applying to UW because I think i may qualify for instate tuition and I like Madison.

vicpin5190 wrote:

buckythebadger wrote:If you guys have any questions about Madison, feel free to post or pm me. I was an instate student, went there for 1L, then transferred to a t14. Loved my year in Madison, though.

Why the transfer, if I may ask. I realize t14 definitely is desirable but what made you want to leave UW. I ask because I'm currently in Madison working at Epic but i'm considering applying to UW because I think i may qualify for instate tuition and I like Madison.

Madison is a great school. Living there is even better. I don't think there is a better college town than Madison. With that said, I wanted to work biglaw. I'm from Wisconsin, so I did want to return here. But Wisconsin's legal market is really small. I think there is only five firms in Wisconsin on the NLJ250 list. So even if you have the grades, all those jobs are highly competitive. I felt transferring gave me a slight advantage, and if I struck out in Wisconsin, a top14 degree offers way more portability.

In state tuition is a great deal at Wisconsin though. If you are okay with staying in Wisconsin, and okay with the possibility of not working biglaw (working midlaw with less than 100k debt is manageable), then Wisconsin is a terrific choice. That is exactly why I chose Wisconsin in the first place. I was okay with both of those scenarios, but once I had the grades for biglaw, that's what I gunned for.

Madison is a great school. Living there is even better. I don't think there is a better college town than Madison. With that said, I wanted to work biglaw. I'm from Wisconsin, so I did want to return here. But Wisconsin's legal market is really small. I think there is only five firms in Wisconsin on the NLJ250 list. So even if you have the grades, all those jobs are highly competitive. I felt transferring gave me a slight advantage, and if I struck out in Wisconsin, a top14 degree offers way more portability.

In state tuition is a great deal at Wisconsin though. If you are okay with staying in Wisconsin, and okay with the possibility of not working biglaw (working midlaw with less than 100k debt is manageable), then Wisconsin is a terrific choice. That is exactly why I chose Wisconsin in the first place. I was okay with both of those scenarios, but once I had the grades for biglaw, that's what I gunned for.

Thanks for the advice! I'm not really interested in biglaw, but I'm not positive I want to stay in Wisconsin. How are the chances for a Madison graduate going into midlaw or looking for clerking jobs outside of Wisconsin? I'm from Illinois so I wouldn't mind getting back into the Chicago market after law school, is that an option with Madison? I've heard great things about Madison as a college town and I love the "law in action" idea, but I'm concerns about paying out of state tuition and the options I'll have after school.

1L at UW-Madison here. I'll be checking in on this thread from time to time. Feel free to pm me with questions.

Checking in.

msilver4 wrote: Thanks for the advice! I'm not really interested in biglaw, but I'm not positive I want to stay in Wisconsin. How are the chances for a Madison graduate going into midlaw or looking for clerking jobs outside of Wisconsin? I'm from Illinois so I wouldn't mind getting back into the Chicago market after law school, is that an option with Madison? I've heard great things about Madison as a college town and I love the "law in action" idea, but I'm concerns about paying out of state tuition and the options I'll have after school.

A couple of important points to delineate here.

1) I think there is a huge difference when people say "I'm not positive I want to stay in Wisconsin" and when people actually have zero desire to stay in Wisconsin. I was the former in that scenario. I was OK with staying in Wisconsin, but I really wanted MPLS or Chicago. When I wasn't able to get either of those two, I was completely fine with accepting my job in Milwaukee. If that is you, then Wisconsin gets a bonus point here.

On the other hand, I know people from my 1L class that had zero desire to work in Wisconsin. When OCI came around, they did not bid on any WI firms. To me, that means you made a horrible choice on picking out a law school. Wisconsin obviously feeds mostly into the state, and a majority of the alumni connections are there. I'm not saying leaving WI can't be done, its just not a wise decision to exclude working in Wisconsin if thats where you attend.

2) The Chicago market is brutal. I would not attend Wisconsin with hopes of breaking into that market. The only classmates I know that were able to successfully do this, were in the top 5% of their class, something you can't hedge your bets on. At my transfer school (top14 Midwest), I know students in the top 10% who got shut out of Chicago. The market there is brutal. Don't think of this as a knock on Wisconsin, either. Peer schools like Iowa and Minnesota face the same uphill battle in trying to break into that market.

3) I can't really comment too much on midlaw outside of Wisconsin. If you were OK with working in a city such as Champaign or Rockford for example, I don't really know how competitive those jobs are, or how many mid sized firms are in those respective cities. The only thing I can really say is that you won't get those jobs through OCI. You would have to hustle, mass mail, and network to land interviews there.

4) Don't think about any of that "law in action" bullshit when your deciding where to attend. Its only use is when your writing your Why X School essays. 95% of your decision should be based on costs and job prospects. Thats it.

I'll be applying within the next couple weeks, and I'm debating doing early decision at Wisco. I have a 3.47 from Michigan and just got a 157 on the October LSAT (a little bummed because I was scoring low 160s on practice tests up until that point). Just wondering what people's thoughts were on my chances and if ED would be a good choice for me. It's my top choice now (I wanted Minnesota but that seems too far of a reach with my LSAT now). I'm from Wisconsin and a resident, and okay with living in Wisconsin. Any help would be appreciated

kjm4815 wrote:I'll be applying within the next couple weeks, and I'm debating doing early decision at Wisco. I have a 3.47 from Michigan and just got a 157 on the October LSAT (a little bummed because I was scoring low 160s on practice tests up until that point). Just wondering what people's thoughts were on my chances and if ED would be a good choice for me. It's my top choice now (I wanted Minnesota but that seems too far of a reach with my LSAT now). I'm from Wisconsin and a resident, and okay with living in Wisconsin. Any help would be appreciated

I don't think you will get it. I ED'd twice with a 3.49/160. I would definitely recommend retaking. I just scored a 168 and will be applying to UW but it might not end up being my best option this time.

My application has had a status of ‘processing’ since 4OCT and went to ‘complete’ today. Anyone else see changes in their application statuses?

No merit waivers? That sucks.

AirDefender wrote:My application has had a status of ‘processing’ since 4OCT and went to ‘complete’ today. Anyone else see changes in their application statuses?

If I remember correctly, don't expect the first round of movement for regular decisions until a week or two before Christmas break.

applied ED, went complete as of 10/29

I imagine I'll be applying, though I don't have a definitive list quite yet. I'm writing my personal statement, and then going to begin submitting! Might as well check in!

Just submitted my application... Here's to hoping they aren't ridiculously slow this year like in the past.

buckythebadger wrote:

msilver4 wrote: Thanks for the advice! I'm not really interested in biglaw, but I'm not positive I want to stay in Wisconsin. How are the chances for a Madison graduate going into midlaw or looking for clerking jobs outside of Wisconsin? I'm from Illinois so I wouldn't mind getting back into the Chicago market after law school, is that an option with Madison? I've heard great things about Madison as a college town and I love the "law in action" idea, but I'm concerns about paying out of state tuition and the options I'll have after school.

A couple of important points to delineate here.

1) I think there is a huge difference when people say "I'm not positive I want to stay in Wisconsin" and when people actually have zero desire to stay in Wisconsin. I was the former in that scenario. I was OK with staying in Wisconsin, but I really wanted MPLS or Chicago. When I wasn't able to get either of those two, I was completely fine with accepting my job in Milwaukee. If that is you, then Wisconsin gets a bonus point here.

On the other hand, I know people from my 1L class that had zero desire to work in Wisconsin. When OCI came around, they did not bid on any WI firms. To me, that means you made a horrible choice on picking out a law school. Wisconsin obviously feeds mostly into the state, and a majority of the alumni connections are there. I'm not saying leaving WI can't be done, its just not a wise decision to exclude working in Wisconsin if thats where you attend.

2) The Chicago market is brutal. I would not attend Wisconsin with hopes of breaking into that market. The only classmates I know that were able to successfully do this, were in the top 5% of their class, something you can't hedge your bets on. At my transfer school (top14 Midwest), I know students in the top 10% who got shut out of Chicago. The market there is brutal. Don't think of this as a knock on Wisconsin, either. Peer schools like Iowa and Minnesota face the same uphill battle in trying to break into that market.

3) I can't really comment too much on midlaw outside of Wisconsin. If you were OK with working in a city such as Champaign or Rockford for example, I don't really know how competitive those jobs are, or how many mid sized firms are in those respective cities. The only thing I can really say is that you won't get those jobs through OCI. You would have to hustle, mass mail, and network to land interviews there.

4) Don't think about any of that "law in action" bullshit when your deciding where to attend. Its only use is when your writing your Why X School essays. 95% of your decision should be based on costs and job prospects. Thats it.

I judge a law school by one metric: employment prospects. In that regard, the University of Wisconsin at Madison is a horrible school. Consequently, you shouldn't attend the University of Wisconsin.

The UW fails in many aspects. First, the degree provides little access to locations outside of Wisconsin. A small number of firms from Minnesota and Chicago recruit UW, but outside of that, you are on your own. Each year UW has one token law student who lands a job at Mayer Brown. This person was probably top 10% and law review. If you want Big Law, then definitely don't go to Wisconsin. In fact, don't go if you want mid-law. If you want small-law, in the middle of nowhere Wisconsin, making $35,000 a year, then Wisconsin is for you.

If you finish in the top 25%, you will receive interviews. But this won't guarantee you a job. It will put you in the running for a job. If you strike out at OCI, you are almost f*cked and you can count on graduating jobless. The career services office is horrible. They have had a considerable amount of staff turnover the last two years. Finally, last spring, the school hired a new director. However, this hasn't changed the quality of jobs posted. Currently, there are at least five unpaid Summer internships posted on the 3L job board. I don't know about you, but I would like a paying job upon graduation so I can pay off my student loans.

Additionally, there are two Associate jobs that are paying $35,000 in middle of the nowhere, Wisconsin. I don't know about you, but I didn't go to law school so I could make $35,000. Additionally, the number of firms that recruited on-campus was...pathetic. There were less then ten. Several of these organizations were IP, so the number drops even further.

It is one thing to say that you should bust your ass networking and hustling. In this market, everyone must do that. However, if you go to Wisconsin and are not top 25%, then THAT WILL BE YOUR ONLY JOB. Career services will not help you. Finding a job will be 100% your responsibility. And don't pin your hopes on the fact that busting your ass and networking will get you a job. It won't.

If you want a clerkship, you better finish in the top 10%. Otherwise, you won't be getting a clerkship from Wisconsin. Even the state level court of appeals clerskhips are competitive. Wisconsin's law in action theme is....bull-shit. Every school teaches the practicality of law. Additionally, Wisconsin is no different then Harvard of Tulane. The way they teach classes is by the case method.

In summary, Wisconsin is a horrible choice. If you decide to come, you better finish in the Top 25% or make plans to do the dual degree MBA program so you can save yourself, because that law degree won't open any doors.

wisc14 wrote: I judge a law school by one metric: employment prospects. In that regard, the University of Wisconsin at Madison is a horrible school. Consequently, you shouldn't attend the University of Wisconsin.

Law school is an investment. There are two metrics to consider in any investment (cost and risk). Employment prospect being the risk and also the cost. The two need to be weighed against one another. Saying you shouldn't attend without knowing someone's cost/circumstance, is pretty cynical and outright stupid.

wisc14 wrote:The UW fails in many aspects. First, the degree provides little access to locations outside of Wisconsin.

This doesn't really prove much at all. The only schools that provide any sense of portability are top14's. I wouldn't go to Vanderbilt with the hope of working in Cali, or WUSTL with the hope of working in NYC. Wisconsin is no different.

wisc14 wrote:The career services office is horrible. They have had a considerable amount of staff turnover the last two years.

This is semi-credited. Career Services definitely needs some work. They are okay when it comes to general information and prepping for interviews. But without inside information, its tough to know whether CS gets rejected by employers to come to OCI, or whether they just don't put the effort in. With that said, you will here gripes about CS at any law school you go to.

wisc14 wrote:In summary, Wisconsin is a horrible choice. If you decide to come, you better finish in the Top 25% or make plans to do the dual degree MBA program so you can save yourself, because that law degree won't open any doors.

Again, weigh the costs and risks of each school you get accepted to. I went to UW over Cornell. I paid 9k in tuition 1L year and landed a 2L biglaw SA. I think you would be hard pressed to say that was a horrible decision on my part.

buckythebadger wrote:

wisc14 wrote: I judge a law school by one metric: employment prospects. In that regard, the University of Wisconsin at Madison is a horrible school. Consequently, you shouldn't attend the University of Wisconsin.

Law school is an investment. There are two metrics to consider in any investment (cost and risk). Employment prospect being the risk and also the cost. The two need to be weighed against one another. Saying you shouldn't attend without knowing someone's cost/circumstance, is pretty cynical and outright stupid.

wisc14 wrote:The UW fails in many aspects. First, the degree provides little access to locations outside of Wisconsin.

This doesn't really prove much at all. The only schools that provide any sense of portability are top14's. I wouldn't go to Vanderbilt with the hope of working in Cali, or WUSTL with the hope of working in NYC. Wisconsin is no different.

wisc14 wrote:The career services office is horrible. They have had a considerable amount of staff turnover the last two years.

This is semi-credited. Career Services definitely needs some work. They are okay when it comes to general information and prepping for interviews. But without inside information, its tough to know whether CS gets rejected by employers to come to OCI, or whether they just don't put the effort in. With that said, you will here gripes about CS at any law school you go to.

wisc14 wrote:In summary, Wisconsin is a horrible choice. If you decide to come, you better finish in the Top 25% or make plans to do the dual degree MBA program so you can save yourself, because that law degree won't open any doors.

Again, weigh the costs and risks of each school you get accepted to. I went to UW over Cornell. I paid 9k in tuition 1L year and landed a 2L biglaw SA. I think you would be hard pressed to say that was a horrible decision on my part.

Because you were one of the lucky few, one of the students who finished in the top 25%, you are the minority. As I said, UW is only good if you finish in the Top 25%. Otherwise, it is a horrible school to attend unless you want to make $30-40,000 a year. Or if you want to be jobless at graduation and move back to your home state. And yes, I am saying, go to a Top 14 or don't go to Wisconsin. Or if you are one of the lucky few to get a full-tuition scholarship, then, consider going. However, if you aren't in that boat. Don't say I didn't warn you.

Regardless of whether recruiters reject UW or Career Services is inept, the verdict is still the same: there is limited opportunities for UW students, especially outside Wisconsin. There will be many people who go to UW despite what I say, but I hope you are prepared to face reality. Wisconsin is ranked # 33. But don't think that high ranking means plentiful job opportunities. It doesn't. The fact that "buckythebadger," transferred out of UW should tell you something.

I completely agree... The only reason I am considering UW is because I live here. I would really hope no one is planning to travel across the country to attend UW.

Chriz wrote:I completely agree... The only reason I am considering UW is because I live here. I would really hope no one is planning to travel across the country to attend UW.

certainly not my top option, but i live in Madison now a days and seems like if i could secure instate tuition plus a solid scholi it's really not a bad value. I'm still shooting for t14s but I gotta agree that you need to go into Wisco keeping cost/benefits in mind, plus you gotta be comfortable with the job locations. I'm still not quite sure I really do want to stick around in Wisconsin long term, but if you are, I think it's not a bad play with the right factors. I'll at least fill an app out at UW since I live here.

In-state tuition is just dirt cheap. If you get any kind of a scholarship, even if you come out with 50k gig (which, with Wisconsin's cost of living is not a small amount of money), you're likely sitting in an enviable financial situation compared to most non-T14 grads.

And that's not to mention, if you have to stick around Wisconsin, Madison is one of the nicer places you'll ever find to live in -- granted you can handle the cold.

and for people like me that would come back to Wisconsin even after going to a T14.. It just seems a better choice if I get a scholarship.. No point in coming back to Wisconsin with 200k debt or having to work outside of Wisconsin for real big law to pay off the debt just to then try to get back to Wisconsin.