Top Law Schools

sancho wrote:

cbarlow1016 wrote:

sancho wrote:It looks like employed at graduation is only 4%. Employed 9 months after graduation is another 14%. There is a lot more to the drop than these figures.

wow. that is depressing.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I meant 4% and 14% toward the USNWR ranking. Those are not the actual employment figures.

The actual employment figures are depressing as well.

bobbypin wrote:
The actual employment figures are depressing as well.

Yes, without question. And it unfortunately appears as though merit aid is decreasing with the ranking. Vicious circle.

sancho wrote:

bobbypin wrote:
The actual employment figures are depressing as well.

Yes, without question. And it unfortunately appears as though merit aid is decreasing with the ranking. Vicious circle.

Historically (from all of the ABA data I have been able to find), Lewis and Clark has been on the low end of merit aid. Their aid medians vary from year to year within $8,000 to $10,000 annually. The ABA charts show that not many students receive greater than half of the tuition from this school in merit aid. With tuition pushing $40k a year, it leaves me wondering how L&C is different from University of Phoenix.

http://abovethelaw.com/2013/03/respondi ... ins-now/2/

Lewis and Clark dean responds to the new rankings

The following is from Assistant Dean for Admissions Shannon Davis' interview with AdmissionsDean.com:

AD: Students are looking more and more into financial aid & scholarships. How has the current economy impacted financial aid at Lewis & Clark?

SD: For starters, federally-subsidized loans were eliminated, so students will have to factor in the interest that will be accruing on their loans throughout law school. This further adds to the burden students will have to carry after graduation.

As for scholarships, the economy has limited the growth of our endowment which limits our ability to grant more, and larger, merit-based aid to incoming students. On the flip side, we have received funding for smaller scholarships from generous donors who are trying to help alleviate the cost of education for some of our students. Those were awards we didn’t have even a couple of years ago.

Certainly the economy has affected people’s decisions on whether to apply to law school, and has influenced to a larger degree where they choose to apply, and where they end up going. I see more people who used to be more concerned about a school’s ranking, and now they seem to be more concerned about the cost.

http://www.admissionsdean.com/researchi ... nnon-davis

BlazersTime wrote:http://abovethelaw.com/2013/03/respondi ... ins-now/2/

Lewis and Clark dean responds to the new rankings

Didn't see that. Thanks for the link.

Anyone else going to the Preview Days?

Went to the admitted students day last Friday. I knew Lewis & Clark was all about environmental law but I'd guess they spent a solid 90% of the time talking about it. Kind of a turn off since thats not what I'm interested in, was hoping to hear them discuss more about their other programs.

BlazersTime wrote:Went to the admitted students day last Friday. I knew Lewis & Clark was all about environmental law but I'd guess they spent a solid 90% of the time talking about it. Kind of a turn off since thats not what I'm interested in, was hoping to hear them discuss more about their other programs.

That would be disappointing. They probably realize their future is as a niche school.

Graduate of L&C, 2012

The job market is tough in the area, and it is not the best school for job prospects. However, it is a pretty good school. Most of the people who go there are not planning on going into environmental law by the time they leave. I would say that this is true of at least half going in as well. If L&C was located in Idaho it would have a higher ranking. However, if you want to work in Oregon, you're going to have trouble finding a job from any peer school.

sancho wrote:

BlazersTime wrote:Went to the admitted students day last Friday. I knew Lewis & Clark was all about environmental law but I'd guess they spent a solid 90% of the time talking about it. Kind of a turn off since thats not what I'm interested in, was hoping to hear them discuss more about their other programs.

That would be disappointing. They probably realize their future is as a niche school.

Yeah at one point someone even asked "what if you're not interested in environmental law?" and the speaker gave a politician type answer along the lines of "we have great programs across the board." Then went straight back into the environmental law opportunities lol

It has a good reputation in the NW though so I'm still considering it.

I went to the preview day, and I didn't feel like they only talked about environmental law. I was able to speak to faculty in my areas of interest and got what I wanted. I loved the campus and city more than I thought I would. My only minor complaint was the endless name listing the dean did. Might have worked better on a handout and with him just naming a few highlights.

katjust wrote:Graduate of L&C, 2012

The job market is tough in the area, and it is not the best school for job prospects. However, it is a pretty good school. Most of the people who go there are not planning on going into environmental law by the time they leave. I would say that this is true of at least half going in as well. If L&C was located in Idaho it would have a higher ranking. However, if you want to work in Oregon, you're going to have trouble finding a job from any peer school.

If you want to work in Portland, you have to attend L&C, right?

bobbypin wrote:

katjust wrote:Graduate of L&C, 2012

The job market is tough in the area, and it is not the best school for job prospects. However, it is a pretty good school. Most of the people who go there are not planning on going into environmental law by the time they leave. I would say that this is true of at least half going in as well. If L&C was located in Idaho it would have a higher ranking. However, if you want to work in Oregon, you're going to have trouble finding a job from any peer school.

If you want to work in Portland, you have to attend L&C, right?

T-14 maybe UCLA/SC/ND/UW/WUSTL(with ties)>>>>> L&C>Oregon> Williamette

deputydog wrote:T-14 maybe UCLA/SC/ND/UW/WUSTL(with ties)>>>>> L&C>Oregon> Williamette

Is there anyway to determine how much of an advantage the T14 grads have over those of L&C?

sancho wrote:

deputydog wrote:T-14 maybe UCLA/SC/ND/UW/WUSTL(with ties)>>>>> L&C>Oregon> Williamette

Is there anyway to determine how much of an advantage the T14 grads have over those of L&C?

List of Oregon SA's for 2012. http://034aac7.netsolhost.com/WordPress/law-students/

Depending on the size of their SA class, firms will typically reserve 1-4 spots for local schools while most of the remaining spots go to T14/especially strong candidates from other schools w/ strong ties. Difficult to measure how much of an advantage T14 grads have over L&C, but they will be competing against a smaller pool of similarly situated applicants, and their grades will matter to a lesser extent.

These posts are germane.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 9#p2455146
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3#p5646128
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 2#p5729834

sancho wrote:

deputydog wrote:T-14 maybe UCLA/SC/ND/UW/WUSTL(with ties)>>>>> L&C>Oregon> Williamette

Is there anyway to determine how much of an advantage the T14 grads have over those of L&C?

T14 with ties trumps all. I think you can still get portland without significant ties from T14. L&C with ties is preferential to L&C without ties. If you want portland biglawl from L&C and aren't from here, you better finish like top 3% or so, otherwise you're out. How T14 without ties stacks up against L&C with ties is guess work. I think L&C with ties might have a slight edge, barring HYS or they graduated top of their class. Median grades and no ties, you are toast at all 'biglaw' firms here (minus HYS).

deputydog wrote:
T14 with ties trumps all. I think you can still get portland without significant ties from T14. L&C with ties is preferential to L&C without ties. If you want portland biglawl from L&C and aren't from here, you better finish like top 3% or so, otherwise you're out. How T14 without ties stacks up against L&C with ties is guess work. I think L&C with ties might have a slight edge, barring HYS or they graduated top of their class. Median grades and no ties, you are toast at all 'biglaw' firms here (minus HYS).

Interesting. Assuming ties, what would you guess is the L&C equivalent for median at T14? Is there a substantive difference between CCN/MVPB/DCNG for Portland hiring?

sancho wrote:

deputydog wrote:
T14 with ties trumps all. I think you can still get portland without significant ties from T14. L&C with ties is preferential to L&C without ties. If you want portland biglawl from L&C and aren't from here, you better finish like top 3% or so, otherwise you're out. How T14 without ties stacks up against L&C with ties is guess work. I think L&C with ties might have a slight edge, barring HYS or they graduated top of their class. Median grades and no ties, you are toast at all 'biglaw' firms here (minus HYS).

Interesting. Assuming ties, what would you guess is the L&C equivalent for median at T14? Is there a substantive difference between CCN/MVPB/DCNG for Portland hiring?

For a screener, my guess is somewhere around top 15%.

(1) T14 students (2) with Portland ties (3) who want to practice back home are not as many as you'd think. For whatever reason, I know two (1) & (2) that ended up in Seattle.

Itinerant wrote:

sancho wrote:

deputydog wrote:
T14 with ties trumps all. I think you can still get portland without significant ties from T14. L&C with ties is preferential to L&C without ties. If you want portland biglawl from L&C and aren't from here, you better finish like top 3% or so, otherwise you're out. How T14 without ties stacks up against L&C with ties is guess work. I think L&C with ties might have a slight edge, barring HYS or they graduated top of their class. Median grades and no ties, you are toast at all 'biglaw' firms here (minus HYS).

Interesting. Assuming ties, what would you guess is the L&C equivalent for median at T14? Is there a substantive difference between CCN/MVPB/DCNG for Portland hiring?

For a screener, my guess is somewhere around top 15%.

(1) T14 students (2) with Portland ties (3) who want to practice back home are not as many as you'd think. For whatever reason, I know two (1) & (2) that ended up in Seattle.

This is mostly right but I would be a bit more conservative and guess top 10%. (Top ~10% is about 25ish students, some will go elsewhere, some (1 or 2) will clerk, etc. L&C probably only snags 10 portland 'biglaw' spots per class). I think this is the requisite to get big law in portland out of L&C.

As far as the difference between the T14 for hiring in Portland, I don't think there is a noticeable difference. Obviously with HYS there is. But the difference between Columbia and Georgetown, while it may exist, is negligible. Once you get into those middle ranks (Penn/NYU-Duke/NU) there is going to be virtually no difference.

FWIW, it seems like Michigan grads do well out here, but that may be due to self selection.

deputydog wrote:

Itinerant wrote:

sancho wrote:

deputydog wrote:
T14 with ties trumps all. I think you can still get portland without significant ties from T14. L&C with ties is preferential to L&C without ties. If you want portland biglawl from L&C and aren't from here, you better finish like top 3% or so, otherwise you're out. How T14 without ties stacks up against L&C with ties is guess work. I think L&C with ties might have a slight edge, barring HYS or they graduated top of their class. Median grades and no ties, you are toast at all 'biglaw' firms here (minus HYS).

Interesting. Assuming ties, what would you guess is the L&C equivalent for median at T14? Is there a substantive difference between CCN/MVPB/DCNG for Portland hiring?

For a screener, my guess is somewhere around top 15%.

(1) T14 students (2) with Portland ties (3) who want to practice back home are not as many as you'd think. For whatever reason, I know two (1) & (2) that ended up in Seattle.

This is mostly right but I would be a bit more conservative and guess top 10%. (Top ~10% is about 25ish students, some will go elsewhere, some (1 or 2) will clerk, etc. L&C probably only snags 10 portland 'biglaw' spots per class). I think this is the requisite to get big law in portland out of L&C.

As far as the difference between the T14 for hiring in Portland, I don't think there is a noticeable difference. Obviously with HYS there is. But the difference between Columbia and Georgetown, while it may exist, is negligible. Once you get into those middle ranks (Penn/NYU-Duke/NU) there is going to be virtually no difference.

FWIW, it seems like Michigan grads do well out here, but that may be due to self selection.

fwiw, career services indicated that Portland SA's are typically in the top 15%, with some occasionally in the top 25%.

deputydog wrote: This is mostly right but I would be a bit more conservative and guess top 10%. (Top ~10% is about 25ish students, some will go elsewhere, some (1 or 2) will clerk, etc. L&C probably only snags 10 portland 'biglaw' spots per class). I think this is the requisite to get big law in portland out of L&C.

As far as the difference between the T14 for hiring in Portland, I don't think there is a noticeable difference. Obviously with HYS there is. But the difference between Columbia and Georgetown, while it may exist, is negligible. Once you get into those middle ranks (Penn/NYU-Duke/NU) there is going to be virtually no difference.

FWIW, it seems like Michigan grads do well out here, but that may be due to self selection.

I think the bolded is true + school self-selection is probably common for all T14 alum

to add to your FWIW, my interviewer from Portland DWT was a Michigan grad

top 10% to be competitive... yet L&C is the only school in town and arguably the best school in-state
so what else is in Portland? don't know much about the mid and small law practices there

Itinerant wrote: to add to your FWIW, my interviewer from Portland DWT was a Michigan grad

top 10% to be competitive... yet L&C is the only school in town and arguably the best school in-state
so what else is in Portland? don't know much about the mid and small law practices there

I run into a ton of them around town. I don't know what effect they have on the hiring, or if there is any at all. But it seems like it might be something.

Portland seems to have pretty good midlaw. I can't really speak to exact numbers, but I know of a dozen or so firms that seem to hire anually and probably pay pretty well.

What school did you go to Itinerant?

sinkhole wrote: fwiw, career services indicated that Portland SA's are typically in the top 15%, with some occasionally in the top 25%.

That very well could be true. I'm sure that some top 10%ers shoot themselves in the foot in the interview or have other issues. And I'm sure people ranked a bit lower outperform their numbers. I'm just saying I wouldn't feel optimistic about my chances unless I was in the top 10%, for big law of course.

They just changed my status to decision rendered. No email. I'm so nervous. Seems standard that they only send emails on Friday though, right?