W&L c/o 2016 Forum

[JayJones78]

I feel like I'm a broken record on this issue but it all sounds 0L talk to me. I really don't understand how anyone could make any decision, on any school for that matter, based on a LST change of one year. I just don't get it.

I definitely understand that, and it would not be that issue alone, but while other schools seem to be improving/holding the same, I feel like it is fair to consider a drop, at least somewhat.

Going from 12% unemployed to 33% unemployed is quite a jump and not insignificant, imo.

And it sounds like 0L talk because it is 0L talk

we talked about this many times. with schools in that rank (16/17-30) all the employment data is just not as relevant IMO. you need to come in knowing you gotta make it to the top 20-30% of your class (I say 30% for school 16-20 and 20% for schools 21-30) or bad things will happen. the kids who are in those rank will be okay (combined with how they fare in OCI, their nature, ability to network and sell themselves etc. but that goes for any LS student, top or bottom). If you have that mentality in mind, you realize that the change in employment just doesnt matter as much. be in that rank, all things equal you'll be in a position to finish school with a job. don't be in that rank, assume the worst.

I know that is your position, and it makes sense, but why not try to shore up the "worst case scenario" as much as possible? Everyone goes expecting to be top 30%, but for every person in the top 30 percent, there is another in the bottom 30.

if you want to avoid that go to a T14 (more like a T6) or go to a regional school that places really well where you want to practice and live. When discussing schools in that rank IMHO they are all the same. top 20-30 percent of bad outcomes. In that regard it really doesnt matter which school you're talking about. if you're in bottom 40% at UIB or another school you'll be in the same position as a W&L grad. Avoiding this equals having better numbers to get accepted at much better schools or waiting until you get that position.

[sublime]

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[lhanvt13]

I heard some schools have legal writing as Pass/Fail. Does anyone know if W&L has the P/F system or is it graded?

[wannabelawstudent]

W&L has great and diverse placement.

[wvu]

I heard some schools have legal writing as Pass/Fail. Does anyone know if W&L has the P/F system or is it graded?

It's graded

[wannabelawstudent]

I heard some schools have legal writing as Pass/Fail. Does anyone know if W&L has the P/F system or is it graded?

It's graded

That's a good thing. Means one more class to boost dat Gpa.

[lhanvt13]

I heard some schools have legal writing as Pass/Fail. Does anyone know if W&L has the P/F system or is it graded?

It's graded

That's a good thing. Means one more class to boost dat Gpa.

yup that's how I see it. was just curious .

Thanks wvuchip.

[JayJones78]

Again, I see where you are coming from, but for me, at least, I respectfully disagree. I am not big law or bust though, so that may make a slight difference (I don't recall if big law is your goal or not). If it was something that I was happy doing, I would be ok doing public interest at 50-55 k a year. In fact, one thing that attracts me to WUSTL is its diversity in placement. Both by job type and by region.

You're right that our aspirations from LS are very different as for me a 50K job will mean I will finish paying my loans in my 70s. My claims are relavent (IMHO) mainly for biglaw, good cleekships and such. I know nothing about

[WanderingPondering]

W&L has great and diverse placement.

I'm just not seeing it...W&M has an equal class profile in terms of LSAT/GPA, a higher big firm, higher clerkship, lower underemployment, and many many more grads getting work in DC/NYC.

Can someone make an arguement why one should choose W&L over W&M or WUSTL given an equal cost? Maybe I'm missing something obvious?

[sublime]

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[WanderingPondering]

W&L has great and diverse placement.

I'm just not seeing it...W&M has an equal class profile in terms of LSAT/GPA, a higher big firm, higher clerkship, lower underemployment, and many many more grads getting work in DC/NYC.

Can someone make an arguement why one should choose W&L over W&M or WUSTL given an equal cost? Maybe I'm missing something obvious?

W&L has better placement in Texas? Idk, I think wannabe may have been being sarcastic. However, I actually had not closely looked at William and Mary's stats because I did not apply there, but I am actually pretty impressed. The do lean heavily on Gov't and PI though, which I don't mind, but some would.

W&M does have a really high school funded rate, which is concerning. Schools should be publishing followups 6 months after the end of a full time school funded job.

[wannabelawstudent]

Eh....take out the school funded jobs and they all have similar employment numbers.

[lhanvt13]

Eh....take out the school funded jobs and they all have similar employment numbers.

+1

[wannabelawstudent]

For those debating W&L and W&M heres some of the difference in stats based on the USNWR stats.

Employed at graduation
W&L - 27.9% (36 grads)
W&M - 45.6% (93 grads)

Graduates employed in jobs that required bar passage
W&L - 45%
W&M - 60.8%

Graduates employed in jobs that required bar passage (full-time, lasting a year or more)
W&L - 25.6%
W&M - 41.2%

Graduates that were unemployed and seeking employment
W&L - 4.1 %
W&M - 29.9

Graduates employed in law school/university funded positions at graduation
W&L - 48.1%
W&M - 21.1%

This is not a typo, half of W&L grads go to school funded positions. I can add more info if need be.

[callj714]

Take a look at their ABA report

http://employmentsummary.abaquestionnaire.org/

Can someone tell me how they are ranked so highly?

Looking through the years, it appears that their prospects are worsening as the economy is getting better (even taking into account differences in the measures for each year)

[DoveBodyWash]

Take a look at their ABA report

http://employmentsummary.abaquestionnaire.org/

Can someone tell me how they are ranked so highly?

Looking through the years, it appears that their prospects are worsening as the economy is getting better (even taking into account differences in the measures for each year)

ranking is probably held up by peer score? Maybe they have a baller faculty

[wannabelawstudent]

Gimme 5 minutes and I can post the premium rankings breakdown....lets figure this out.

[sublime]

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[lhanvt13]

Take a look at their ABA report

http://employmentsummary.abaquestionnaire.org/

Can someone tell me how they are ranked so highly?

Looking through the years, it appears that their prospects are worsening as the economy is getting better (even taking into account differences in the measures for each year)

W&L has great and diverse placement.

[wannabelawstudent]

Well, they're ranking score is "62". Yes their Peer assessment scores are a bit high for their rank, so is there bar passage rate. Apparantly that's enough to overcome employing 27% of grads at graduating, and having 1/2 be school funded. I can't imagine how brutal the class of 2015 is going to have it.

This is like the exact opposite of SMU.

[Xs20]

we talked about this many times. with schools in that rank (16/17-30) all the employment data is just not as relevant IMO. you need to come in knowing you gotta make it to the top 20-30% of your class (I say 30% for school 16-20 and 20% for schools 21-30) or bad things will happen. the kids who are in those rank will be okay (combined with how they fare in OCI, their nature, ability to network and sell themselves etc. but that goes for any LS student, top or bottom). If you have that mentality in mind, you realize that the change in employment just doesnt matter as much. be in that rank, all things equal you'll be in a position to finish school with a job. don't be in that rank, assume the worst.

[sublime]

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[sublime]

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[DoveBodyWash]

we talked about this many times. with schools in that rank (16/17-30) all the employment data is just not as relevant IMO. you need to come in knowing you gotta make it to the top 20-30% of your class (I say 30% for school 16-20 and 20% for schools 21-30) or bad things will happen. the kids who are in those rank will be okay (combined with how they fare in OCI, their nature, ability to network and sell themselves etc. but that goes for any LS student, top or bottom). If you have that mentality in mind, you realize that the change in employment just doesnt matter as much. be in that rank, all things equal you'll be in a position to finish school with a job. don't be in that rank, assume the worst.

Honestly, I liked the pre-edit one more.

+1

[lhanvt13]

Take a look at their ABA report

http://employmentsummary.abaquestionnaire.org/

Can someone tell me how they are ranked so highly?

Looking through the years, it appears that their prospects are worsening as the economy is getting better (even taking into account differences in the measures for each year)

I'd say this is a shitty year and hopefully won't continue afterwards.