Northwestern Law C/O 2016 (2012-2013 Applicants) Forum

[Cobretti]

I wonder if NW will ease up on their work experience requirement with the lack of applications or dip down into the LSAT pool and risk lower medians than the rest of the T14..

Based on LSN and acceptances reported here it looks like they're easing up on WE to keep medians up (IMHO)

c/o 2015 saw a dip in WE. All reports are that the new Dean is committed to maintaining WE levels, but I don't see him rushing to restore pre-c/o 2015 WE levels anytime soon. I'm more curious to see if class size gets reduced on the heels of the Kirkland gift.

I really hope they use it for more scholly $ myself

I don't see anyway they keep a 170 median. Who exactly are these people with 170s that are going to matriculate?.

The ones who have shitty GPAs?

[jvandy53]

Hopefully me!

[DoveBodyWash]

I don't see anyway they keep a 170 median. Who exactly are these people with 170s that are going to matriculate?

I expect every school that didn't drop medians last year to drop a point. Maybe even the ones that already dropped last year will drop again.

+1

They'd have to offer an inordinate amount of scholly to keep a 170 median..unless there's a massive bloc of 170+'s that don't care about loan debt and are willing to pay sticker (either through loans or out of pocket). There also just aren't as many 170+'s out there as TLS sometimes suggests. There's not enough people to spread around the T14. A good number of these people (including me most likely) will opt for lower debt at non-T14 schools as well.

I wouldn't worry too much about it. There are still a lot of decisions to be made, including holds and waitlists. I think this cycle, at NU and elsewhere, is all about law schools just waiting and evaluating their options. It'll be slow, but things will shake out eventually.

Good luck to everyone!

[rinkrat19]

I don't see anyway they keep a 170 median. Who exactly are these people with 170s that are going to matriculate?

I expect every school that didn't drop medians last year to drop a point. Maybe even the ones that already dropped last year will drop again.

+1

They'd have to offer an inordinate amount of scholly to keep a 170 median..unless there's a massive bloc of 170+'s that don't care about loan debt and are willing to pay sticker (either through loans or out of pocket). There also just aren't as many 170+'s out there as TLS sometimes suggests. There's not enough people to spread around the T14. A good number of these people (including me most likely) will opt for lower debt at non-T14 schools as well.

I wouldn't worry too much about it. There are still a lot of decisions to be made, including holds and waitlists. I think this cycle, at NU and elsewhere, is all about law schools just waiting and evaluating their options. It'll be slow, but things will shake out eventually.

Good luck to everyone!

There is a non-negligible number of crappy GPA/high-LSAT applicants out there for whom NU is their only decent shot at T14, and who won't get a ton of scholly money elsewhere because of the GPA. They're choosing between sticker at NU or near-sticker at BU/BC, GW, WUSTL, ND.

I think you guys are being awfully optimistic about if/how far medians will fall. And NU has another statistic they can let slide that other schools don't: the WE factor. They may be able to take some 1-year WE apps instead of 2+ year WE apps, and some no WE apps instead of WE, to maintain medians.

[BigZuck]

Duke, Cornell, Georgetown, maybe NYU all fell last year. It's worse this year. The dean of Georgetown told a group of alums that next year the median will be "169 or 168" which tells me they might drop again. I can't see schools maintaining medians unless they are Stanford or Yale. I don't think we are being overly optimistic, just realistic. There aren't enough high LSAT scores.

[DoveBodyWash]

There is a non-negligible number of crappy GPA/high-LSAT applicants out there for whom NU is their only decent shot at T14, and who won't get a ton of scholly money elsewhere because of the GPA. They're choosing between sticker at NU or near-sticker at BU/BC, GW, WUSTL, ND.

I think you guys are being awfully optimistic about if/how far medians will fall. And NU has another statistic they can let slide that other schools don't: the WE factor. They may be able to take some 1-year WE apps instead of 2+ year WE apps, and some no WE apps instead of WE, to maintain medians.

Agree. I don't think medians will plummet or anything...but a 170 median seems like it will be pretty hard to maintain. But who knows? Maybe a lot of ppl who are looking at scholly at NU versus sticker at a higher T14 will opt for NU. In any case, I think all these factors will translate into a much slower/longer cycle

[Icculus]

I don't see anyway they keep a 170 median. Who exactly are these people with 170s that are going to matriculate?

I expect every school that didn't drop medians last year to drop a point. Maybe even the ones that already dropped last year will drop again.

+1

They'd have to offer an inordinate amount of scholly to keep a 170 median..unless there's a massive bloc of 170+'s that don't care about loan debt and are willing to pay sticker (either through loans or out of pocket). There also just aren't as many 170+'s out there as TLS sometimes suggests. There's not enough people to spread around the T14. A good number of these people (including me most likely) will opt for lower debt at non-T14 schools as well.

I wouldn't worry too much about it. There are still a lot of decisions to be made, including holds and waitlists. I think this cycle, at NU and elsewhere, is all about law schools just waiting and evaluating their options. It'll be slow, but things will shake out eventually.

Good luck to everyone!

There is a non-negligible number of crappy GPA/high-LSAT applicants out there for whom NU is their only decent shot at T14, and who won't get a ton of scholly money elsewhere because of the GPA. They're choosing between sticker at NU or near-sticker at BU/BC, GW, WUSTL, ND.

I think you guys are being awfully optimistic about if/how far medians will fall. And NU has another statistic they can let slide that other schools don't: the WE factor. They may be able to take some 1-year WE apps instead of 2+ year WE apps, and some no WE apps instead of WE, to maintain medians.

And honestly given what I have seen from D-Rod I think he would rather let the WE % fall further than see the medians drop.

Edit: I think this is also demonstarted by the fact that in previous years a sub 3.0 and 173+ LSAT was going to pay sticker and now those same people are getting (small) scholarships.

[rinkrat19]

I don't see anyway they keep a 170 median. Who exactly are these people with 170s that are going to matriculate?

I expect every school that didn't drop medians last year to drop a point. Maybe even the ones that already dropped last year will drop again.

+1

They'd have to offer an inordinate amount of scholly to keep a 170 median..unless there's a massive bloc of 170+'s that don't care about loan debt and are willing to pay sticker (either through loans or out of pocket). There also just aren't as many 170+'s out there as TLS sometimes suggests. There's not enough people to spread around the T14. A good number of these people (including me most likely) will opt for lower debt at non-T14 schools as well.

I wouldn't worry too much about it. There are still a lot of decisions to be made, including holds and waitlists. I think this cycle, at NU and elsewhere, is all about law schools just waiting and evaluating their options. It'll be slow, but things will shake out eventually.

Good luck to everyone!

There is a non-negligible number of crappy GPA/high-LSAT applicants out there for whom NU is their only decent shot at T14, and who won't get a ton of scholly money elsewhere because of the GPA. They're choosing between sticker at NU or near-sticker at BU/BC, GW, WUSTL, ND.

I think you guys are being awfully optimistic about if/how far medians will fall. And NU has another statistic they can let slide that other schools don't: the WE factor. They may be able to take some 1-year WE apps instead of 2+ year WE apps, and some no WE apps instead of WE, to maintain medians.

And honestly given what I have seen from D-Rod I think he would rather let the WE % fall further than see the medians drop.

Edit: I think this is also demonstarted by the fact that in previous years a sub 3.0 and 173+ LSAT was going to pay sticker and now those same people are getting (small) scholarships.

Yup.

[BigZuck]

Duke, Cornell, Georgetown, maybe NYU all fell last year. It's worse this year. The dean of Georgetown told a group of alums that next year the median will be "169 or 168" which tells me they might drop again. I can't see schools maintaining medians unless they are Stanford or Yale. I don't think we are being overly optimistic, just realistic. There aren't enough high LSAT scores.

Also NU might be the special snowflake of the t14 (in many ways they already are) but I just don't see it happening. The fact that they are extending the deadline in the hopes of new apps bailing them out implies to me that they are worried about their medians based on the apps they have. Just my opinion.

[alwayssunnyinfl]

They didn't need my 170+ despite my crappy gpa and mediocre (at best) w/e.

I have no clue if their median LSAT will drop or not, but they'll always be a Chicago powerhouse, and I think that the long-term strategy of maintaining w/e numbers, even if it means dropping from an approximately 97th percentile to a 96.6th percentile medinan, is a good one.

[WaitingandHopeful]

All this talk about t14 LSAT desperation is making me irrationally hopeful. 177, but just under NU 25th GPA.

I was held at GTown in Jan which seemed like a terrible omen for the rest of the t14, but who knows. I would probably matriculate at NU even without $ at this point, but it's hard to say how everything else breaks down.

Here's hoping for some good news today.

[uconjak]

I believe that most schools have made some decision on what they are going to do...for instance, USC, They look to have drawn a line in the sand. and they are throwing money to 167+ers. I think they want a 167 Median. Many other schools are in denial about the situation or they will just lower acceptances. But you can't lower numbers every year. Soon your revenues start hurting, Especially if you lowered the number of available seats from last year. Look at Columbia, they lowered their totals about 10% (from Memory). that is fine for one year, but can you do it for 2-3 years and maintain standards. The big issue is not HSY, its everyone else. I believe that it will affect HLS also, but not as bad. The bigger your class size the more students you have to get to fill those empty seats. Yale and Stanford will be ok with only 180 or so seats to fill but they will still have some slipage...but not much.
The big concern is for NYU, and GULC they have had large classes in the past. how do they adjust? I believe that GULC has decided to lower standards a little and fill the seats. But this is NOW a buyers market not a sellers market. I am one student they might not have taken 2-3 years ago (168/3.9). But now they have accepted me, but they are competing against USC which is throwing 120K at me and their cross town rival, GW who sent me a Scholly of 90K. the $$ are not the most important thing but it is becoming more important because of the Employment Market place for lawyers is not what it was 10 years ago. Some schools with be upfront on their reasoning most will say we were more HOLISTIC in our approach this year and wanted a more diverse class. I got that from on t14 school, saying, " your XXX background from the Midwest would enhance our class by bringing some geographic diversity to our Law school."
I believe that most top law schools are struggling with this issue. At least from T4 down. I get that feeling from almost all of the schools in the T14 i have applied to. they all are slower than normal getting decisions out. They are also sending emails telling people to hang on they will get decisions shortly.......Why would DUKE and Michigan send me Fee waivers in the last 2-3 weeks before their application deadline. Why would some schools start extending their admissions deadlines? what to get more qualified students? even if they are border line? splitters/ reverse splitters?
Per Ben Stein, ANYONE , ANYONE?

[Cobretti]

Like Samara said, NU just got a $5M donation from Kirkland and Ellis in October, so that also gives them some flexibility this year. With that money they can shrink class size or increase scholly $ to maintain medians, without having to dip into WE. There is certainly evidence that they already started throwing more money at splitters last year (relevant 2011-2012 LSN profiles: emkay625, whimsical). For 2010-2011 according to LSN only one sub 25 GPA got scholly money and he was an AJD, so really that means 0 JDs below the 25th got $. This trend has a good chance of getting even stronger with the influx of the K&E gift. Of course NU scholly $ really does seem to be more need based than most of its peers, so there is a chance these people are outliers, but its what the data we have suggests.

ETA: scooped by icculus

[DoveBodyWash]

Like Samara said, NU just got a $5M donation from Kirkland and Ellis in October, so that also gives them some flexibility this year. With that money they can shrink class size or increase scholly $ to maintain medians, without having to dip into WE. There is certainly evidence that they already started throwing more money at splitters last year (relevant 2011-2012 LSN profiles: emkay625, whimsical). For 2010-2011 according to LSN only one sub 25 GPA got scholly money and he was an AJD, so really that means 0 JDs below the 25th got $. This trend has a good chance of getting even stronger with the influx of the K&E gift. Of course NU scholly $ really does seem to be more need based than most of its peers, so there is a chance these people are outliers, but its what the data we have suggests.

ETA: scooped by icculus

Not that I'm necessarily disagreeing with you, but the K&E gift is going to be given over a span of 5 years. So 1 million a year. Assuming tuition revenue per student is 150K for three years, 1 million covers the cost of less than 7 students.

Even if K&E gave it to them all at once, NU isn't gonna blow it all on this cycle. And again, even 5 million only covers the tuition revenue for 33 students

[uconjak]

Duke, Cornell, Georgetown, maybe NYU all fell last year. It's worse this year. The dean of Georgetown told a group of alums that next year the median will be "169 or 168" which tells me they might drop again. I can't see schools maintaining medians unless they are Stanford or Yale. I don't think we are being overly optimistic, just realistic. There aren't enough high LSAT scores.

Also NU might be the special snowflake of the t14 (in many ways they already are) but I just don't see it happening. The fact that they are extending the deadline in the hopes of new apps bailing them out implies to me that they are worried about their medians based on the apps they have. Just my opinion.

I think your right BZ, it is my understanding that several schools last year extended the deadline and we will probably have more this year. I don't know what the numbers were for LSAT test this feb. but if the test had the same % drop as the other test dates....then that is a lossing game. THeir will not be enough 170+ers to bail many of the schools out.

[Cobretti]

Like Samara said, NU just got a $5M donation from Kirkland and Ellis in October, so that also gives them some flexibility this year. With that money they can shrink class size or increase scholly $ to maintain medians, without having to dip into WE. There is certainly evidence that they already started throwing more money at splitters last year (relevant 2011-2012 LSN profiles: emkay625, whimsical). For 2010-2011 according to LSN only one sub 25 GPA got scholly money and he was an AJD, so really that means 0 JDs below the 25th got $. This trend has a good chance of getting even stronger with the influx of the K&E gift. Of course NU scholly $ really does seem to be more need based than most of its peers, so there is a chance these people are outliers, but its what the data we have suggests.

ETA: scooped by icculus

Not that I'm necessarily disagreeing with you, but the K&E gift is going to be given over a span of 5 years. So 1 million a year. Assuming tuition revenue per student is 150K for three years, 1 million covers the cost of less than 7 students.

Even if K&E gave it to them all at once, NU isn't gonna blow it all on this cycle. And again, even 5 million only covers the tuition revenue for 33 students

$150 full ride, or 3x 45-60k schollys, which would be 21 students out of ~190. I'm sure 21 more 170s would do the trick, unless NU gets hit by lower apps more than its peers. And giving a 3.0/173 45k at a T14 is pretty much guaranteeing they matriculate (hypothetically of course).

[DoveBodyWash]

Not that I'm necessarily disagreeing with you, but the K&E gift is going to be given over a span of 5 years. So 1 million a year. Assuming tuition revenue per student is 150K for three years, 1 million covers the cost of less than 7 students.

Even if K&E gave it to them all at once, NU isn't gonna blow it all on this cycle. And again, even 5 million only covers the tuition revenue for 33 students

$150 full ride, or 3x 45-60k schollys, which would be 21 students out of ~190. I'm sure 21 more 170s would do the trick, unless NU gets hit by lower apps more than its peers. And giving a 3.0/173 45k at a T14 is pretty much guaranteeing they matriculate (hypothetically of course).

True. If NU spends all of it on scholly, then they can divvy it up in any number of combinations..however..

In part it will establish the Kirkland & Ellis Scholarship Fund to provide scholarships for future students in the law school’s JD-MBA program, the largest and most integrated program of its kind.

A sizable majority of the gift is earmarked for unrestricted support of the Law School.

I'm fairly certain JD/MBA students aren't factored into medians since they don't even take the LSAT for that program. Also "unrestricted support" could be used for virtually anything. No way NU uses it all for merit awards.

Source:
http://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/ ... ellis.html

[Cobretti]

True. If NU spends all of it on scholly, then they can divvy it up in any number of combinations..however..

In part it will establish the Kirkland & Ellis Scholarship Fund to provide scholarships for future students in the law school’s JD-MBA program, the largest and most integrated program of its kind.

A sizable majority of the gift is earmarked for unrestricted support of the Law School.

I'm fairly certain JD/MBA students aren't factored into medians since they don't even take the LSAT for that program. Also "unrestricted support" could be used for virtually anything. No way NU uses it all for merit awards.

Source:
http://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/ ... ellis.html

It is unrestricted though, and we're discussing the options they have available. The point is just simply that they do have options, if they slip to 169 it will be because they chose to let it happen.

[DoveBodyWash]

True. If NU spends all of it on scholly, then they can divvy it up in any number of combinations..however..

In part it will establish the Kirkland & Ellis Scholarship Fund to provide scholarships for future students in the law school’s JD-MBA program, the largest and most integrated program of its kind.

A sizable majority of the gift is earmarked for unrestricted support of the Law School.

I'm fairly certain JD/MBA students aren't factored into medians since they don't even take the LSAT for that program. Also "unrestricted support" could be used for virtually anything. No way NU uses it all for merit awards.

Source:
http://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/ ... ellis.html

It is unrestricted though, and we're discussing the options they have available. The point is just simply that they do have options, if they slip to 169 it will be because they chose to let it happen.

+1
Truth

[az21833]

lol only on the NU thread would this type of analysis occur. K-JDs must feel so out of place here

[ramadden13]

lol only on the NU thread would this type of analysis occur. K-JDs must feel so out of place here

+1

[alwayssunnyinfl]

lol only on the NU thread would this type of analysis occur. K-JDs must feel so out of place here

+1

Have you people been to the other threads? This type of overanalysis is the hallmark of TLS.

[shntn]

lol only on the NU thread would this type of analysis occur. K-JDs must feel so out of place here

+1

Have you people been to the other threads? This type of overanalysis is the hallmark of TLS.

Can we just spend a few pages analyzing what you mean by "you people?"

[rinkrat19]

lol only on the NU thread would this type of analysis occur. K-JDs must feel so out of place here

Not to be bitchy, but this is the 3rd cycle I've sat through and y'all are way more neurotic than the past two years.

[shntn]

lol only on the NU thread would this type of analysis occur. K-JDs must feel so out of place here

Not to be bitchy, but this is the 3rd cycle I've sat through and y'all are way more neurotic than the past two years.

We've been hearing doom and gloom for years now, so maybe that's it.