Fordham(Full Tuition) vs. St. John's (free) vs.Brooklyn(1/3) Forum

[rocon7383]

153 and you're confident you're getting into Fordham? Must be very compelling "intangibles."

Are you Derek Jeter?

I scored a 166 on the test. He asked about my practice tests. My first practice score was 153. I was simply trying to show that I did put work in to get a 166

With a 166 you can get a decent scholly if you leave ny. I say eff the ny market and go somewhere else. Otherwise, retake.

With a 166/3.2 you'd probably be paying 16k/year for uga. Go work in hot lanta
or 18k/year for wake forest.

I wish it was that easy, haha. I have a longterm relationship with a girl who is a teacher in nyc, my family (who i do like, actually) all live here, and I love nyc and want to live here forever. So, you see, this is why I like Fordham. I understand and appreciate the merits of what you're saying but its just not for me.

[rocon7383]

No. Based on everything I have read, and every conversation I have had, I was user the impression that is a nearly impossible feat coming from a non t-14."

I'm curious about your plan to get there, then. You'll be graduating from arguably the worst (St. John's) or third worst (BLS) law school in a city that's saturated with attorneys from literally 50 law schools who have a better chance at nabbing the AUSA "feeder jobs." Not saying it can't be done, but I am saying you're statistically setting yourself up for disappointment, and (if you go to Fordham) piles of debt.

This is all based off the premise that I can't get a biglaw job out of Fordham, which I know to be untrue, i have several friends (on my beerleague softball team ironically) who have graduated within the past 5 years from fordham making 160+

[paratactical]

No. Based on everything I have read, and every conversation I have had, I was user the impression that is a nearly impossible feat coming from a non t-14."

I'm curious about your plan to get there, then. You'll be graduating from arguably the worst (St. John's) or third worst (BLS) law school in a city that's saturated with attorneys from literally 50 law schools who have a better chance at nabbing the AUSA "feeder jobs." Not saying it can't be done, but I am saying you're statistically setting yourself up for disappointment, and (if you go to Fordham) piles of debt.

This is all based off the premise that I can't get a biglaw job out of Fordham, which I know to be untrue.

[thecilent]

No. Based on everything I have read, and every conversation I have had, I was user the impression that is a nearly impossible feat coming from a non t-14."

I'm curious about your plan to get there, then. You'll be graduating from arguably the worst (St. John's) or third worst (BLS) law school in a city that's saturated with attorneys from literally 50 law schools who have a better chance at nabbing the AUSA "feeder jobs." Not saying it can't be done, but I am saying you're statistically setting yourself up for disappointment, and (if you go to Fordham) piles of debt.

This is all based off the premise that I can't get a biglaw job out of Fordham, which I know to be untrue.

Tyft

[Mick Haller]

how much debt for Fordham?

[rocon7383]

how much debt for Fordham?

135-140k. Commuting.

[Mick Haller]

how much debt for Fordham?

135-140k. Commuting.

It's not ideal, but manageable. I'd probably attend Fordham.

[rocon7383]

No. Based on everything I have read, and every conversation I have had, I was user the impression that is a nearly impossible feat coming from a non t-14."

I'm curious about your plan to get there, then. You'll be graduating from arguably the worst (St. John's) or third worst (BLS) law school in a city that's saturated with attorneys from literally 50 law schools who have a better chance at nabbing the AUSA "feeder jobs." Not saying it can't be done, but I am saying you're statistically setting yourself up for disappointment, and (if you go to Fordham) piles of debt.

Well the 50 schools you mentioned are not better than Fordham at getting these feeder jobs in NY. So I reject the "I am saying you're statistically setting yourself up for disappointment, AND (if you go to Fordham) piles of debt." That should be or!!!!! haha. Because after all, after the top 14 aren't you pretty much always statistically setting yourself up for failure the same way a baseball player always sets himself up to fail at the plate, statistically. Everyone has a 10% chance of being in the top 10% of their class.

[patrickd139]

Well the 50 schools you mentioned are not better than Fordham at getting these feeder jobs in NY. So I reject the "I am saying you're statistically setting yourself up for disappointment, AND (if you go to Fordham) piles of debt." That should be or!!!!! haha. Because after all, after the top 14 aren't you pretty much always statistically setting yourself up for failure the same way a baseball player always sets himself up to fail at the plate, statistically. Everyone has a 10% chance of being in the top 10% of their class.

I may be misunderstanding the substance of what you're getting at here, but if you think all students at the 10% level are equal (i.e. BLS and BC) or that by graduating from Fordham you're guaranteed a job in NYC--much less the type your posts in this thread suggest that you're shooting for--I fear you're deluding yourself. At most, you can bank on median grades at any law school, and should plan accordingly.

Also, many of those 50 schools I alluded to are better at getting you a job in NYC. For example, I'd wager that top 25% at Texas, Emory or GWU takes jobs from median Fordham students all day long. Same with top % students at schools well below Fordham's rank. Just because Fordham places above it's rank in big law does not mean going there gets you big law.

[rocon7383]

Well the 50 schools you mentioned are not better than Fordham at getting these feeder jobs in NY. So I reject the "I am saying you're statistically setting yourself up for disappointment, AND (if you go to Fordham) piles of debt." That should be or!!!!! haha. Because after all, after the top 14 aren't you pretty much always statistically setting yourself up for failure the same way a baseball player always sets himself up to fail at the plate, statistically. Everyone has a 10% chance of being in the top 10% of their class.

I may be misunderstanding the substance of what you're getting at here, but if you think all students at the 10% level are equal (i.e. BLS and BC) or that by graduating from Fordham you're guaranteed a job in NYC--much less the type your posts in this thread suggest that you're shooting for--I fear you're deluding yourself. At most, you can bank on median grades at any law school, and should plan accordingly.

Also, many of those 50 schools I alluded to are better at getting you a job in NYC. For example, I'd wager that top 25% at Texas, Emory or GWU takes jobs from median Fordham students all day long. Same with top % students at schools well below Fordham's rank. Just because Fordham places above it's rank in big law does not mean going there gets you big law.

We are definitely misunderstanding what the other says. My point about top 10% was only to say that going to any law school, outside of the very top institutions, is always statistically risky. But based on what type of law I want to practice, I find it more dangerous to take a full ride at a school like st. johns than full cost at Fordham due to job prospects, especially to those who fall out of the very top of their class.

I know that a student from GWU, Emory etc with a better ranking than a Fordham student could take a NYC job from them, and generally your rank reigns supreme at comparable schools, but there is no denying the enormous network Fordham has in New York.

Lastly, I know there isn't some predetermined causality between Fordham and biglaw, I apologize if that is how my point came across. I understand the apprehension regarding NYC schools not named NYU and Columbia but if you look at my post a little ways up on this thread you'll note that I am set on staying in New York for what I think are some good reasons.

[rocon7383]

how much debt for Fordham?

135-140k. Commuting.

It's not ideal, but manageable. I'd probably attend Fordham.

Closer to 130K actually, I was confusing its tuition with another school

[rocon7383]

shameless bump

[rocon7383]

No. Based on everything I have read, and every conversation I have had, I was user the impression that is a nearly impossible feat coming from a non t-14."

I'm curious about your plan to get there, then. You'll be graduating from arguably the worst (St. John's) or third worst (BLS) law school in a city that's saturated with attorneys from literally 50 law schools who have a better chance at nabbing the AUSA "feeder jobs." Not saying it can't be done, but I am saying you're statistically setting yourself up for disappointment, and (if you go to Fordham) piles of debt.

This is all based off the premise that I can't get a biglaw job out of Fordham, which I know to be untrue.

Tyft

what does tyft mean?

[BlackSwan85]

While biglaw jobs can be had out of Fordham, they are quite hard to obtain ITE. Frankly, if I had to choose between these three options, I'd go with St. John. Your prospects won't be great but you'll at least have minimal debt to contend with.

Definitely do not choose Brooklyn. Not worth it in the slightest.

[thecilent]

While biglaw jobs can be had out of Fordham, they are quite hard to obtain ITE. Frankly, if I had to choose between these three options, I'd go with St. John. Your prospects won't be great but you'll at least have minimal debt to contend with.

Definitely do not choose Brooklyn. Not worth it in the slightest.

+1 to all this as well as your moniker

[rocon7383]

While biglaw jobs can be had out of Fordham, they are quite hard to obtain ITE. Frankly, if I had to choose between these three options, I'd go with St. John. Your prospects won't be great but you'll at least have minimal debt to contend with.

Definitely do not choose Brooklyn. Not worth it in the slightest.

But isn't playing it safe and taking the scholarship just as monetarily risky? I mean, if I do just OK at St. John's, haven't i sort of set a cap on my future salary more or less? So yes, I won't be in debt, but I also may never have any money.

[BlackSwan85]

^Free guaranteed money now is better than circa 15 percent chance at biglaw money later. Odds out of Fordham aren't sufficiently greater to justify the extra investment. Really, it's that simple.

[rocon7383]

^Free guaranteed money now is better than circa 15 percent chance at biglaw money later. Odds out of Fordham aren't sufficiently greater to justify the extra investment. Really, it's that simple.

I understand your reasoning but I truly don't think its that simple. Fordham grads' chances at big law, while not high, are significantly better than St. Johns. Plus, even if BigLaw is not an option, a midsize firm in manhattan would be more inclined to take say a top 40% student from fordham instead of st.johns. I get that the lack of debt is enticing but if I were simply median at st.john's i fear i may fall into the abyss of windowless joyless law forever. (dramatic close, i know.)

[rocon7383]

^Free guaranteed money now is better than circa 15 percent chance at biglaw money later. Odds out of Fordham aren't sufficiently greater to justify the extra investment. Really, it's that simple.

Also, its top 40% to keep scholly at st. johns. And I've had no luck negotiating stips.

[BlackSwan85]

If you're worried about maintaining top 40 percent at St. John, you definitely shouldn't feel confident about scoring 160k+ out of Fordham.

The best way to avoid abyss of joyless lawyering is to overcome LSAT aversion and retake.

[Aberzombie1892]

Even if the op retakes:
1. Fordham is stingy on scholarships
2. Op most likely won't get NYU or Columbia

Op - either leave the NY market or take on massive risks in terms of scholarship retainment, debt, and employment prospects.

Fordham may seem like it's worth $130,000 now but you will regret it during your first year, even if you are top 25%. Things are not as simple as you are making them out to be.

[rocon7383]

If you're worried about maintaining top 40 percent at St. John, you definitely shouldn't feel confident about scoring 160k+ out of Fordham.

The best way to avoid abyss of joyless lawyering is to overcome LSAT aversion and retake.

I don't know why you, and many members of this site, have to go to the tired "if you're worried about being at the top of your class at a T2 don't even THINK about 160k/change your profession/blah/blah". Its lame. I don't intend to fall out of the top 40, but then again i've obviously never gone to law school before and i'm not a smuggy enough douche to just ASSUME i'll do terrific. I'm doing my due diligence worrying about the implications of losing my scholarship while weighing my decision.

[Lwoods]

If you're worried about maintaining top 40 percent at St. John, you definitely shouldn't feel confident about scoring 160k+ out of Fordham.

The best way to avoid abyss of joyless lawyering is to overcome LSAT aversion and retake.

Doesn't St. John's section stack?

According to NALP, Fordham is the only non-T14 at which my former firm still participates in OCI. BigLaw isn't easy out of Fordham, but it's easier from there than from just about any other non-T14. Not sure if that translates to AUSA positions, too...
I think Fordham makes the most sense, especially since you won't need to take out loans for COL.
Have you asked to be considered for their PT program? Working during the day could help alleviate the debt. You'd definitely want to find a low key job, though, that allows you ample time to study.

[dresden doll]

Dude, it's totally incongruous to fret over losing a scholarship with 40 percent stipulation while maintaining optimism over your capability to score AIUSA/160k from Fordham. If you're worried over keeping that money, you should be doubly concerned with respect to your Fordham class rank.

Also, being outside of top 40 percent at St. John will at least leave you debt free. At Fordham, you would be in a tough spot both financially and employment wise.

Don't get annoyed because rational advice isn't in line with what you apparently want us to tell you.

[dresden doll]

Also, I'm pretty sure biglaw is easier out of places like UCLA and Vandy than Fordham. Being top quarter doesn't cut it there. Doesn't sound like a particularly safe investment to me.