Elon 2013 Forum

[MrMcAllister]

Sure, undergraduate and graduate success/recognition at Elon does not necessarily mean that the law school will have such recognition/success. I just tend to be optimistic in trusting that the university simply isn't going to throw away its huge new investment by not supplying the law school with similar tools for success.

Sigh...
they can have all the tools they want.
A little over 60% of USNWR is reputation + gpa +lsat.

Thats something that no amount of money or tools can get.

I want to echo the sentiment above... its a good school, and I'm sure it will give you a good education... just please make sure you know what you are getting into in terms of a financial investment.

Also... being new is actually NOT good. It means you have no alumni network to help you get hired.

If you're going to quote me, do it well. Read the rest of that paragraph you quoted.

The lack of an alumni network is at least partially offset by its preceptor program, which gives first-year students contacts and hands-on experience with practicing attorneys (even through the attorey general's office). I didn't even argue in support of its newness; I acknowledged the lack of an alumni network and outlined steps being taken to improve its ranking.

Sigh...

[Nicholasnickynic]

Sure, undergraduate and graduate success/recognition at Elon does not necessarily mean that the law school will have such recognition/success. I just tend to be optimistic in trusting that the university simply isn't going to throw away its huge new investment by not supplying the law school with similar tools for success.

Sigh...
they can have all the tools they want.
A little over 60% of USNWR is reputation + gpa +lsat.

Thats something that no amount of money or tools can get.

I want to echo the sentiment above... its a good school, and I'm sure it will give you a good education... just please make sure you know what you are getting into in terms of a financial investment.

Also... being new is actually NOT good. It means you have no alumni network to help you get hired.

If you're going to quote me, do it well. Read the rest of that paragraph you quoted.

The lack of an alumni network is at least partially offset by its preceptor program, which gives first-year students contacts and hands-on experience with practicing attorneys (even through the attorey general's office). I didn't even argue in support of its newness; I acknowledged the lack of an alumni network and outlined steps being taken to improve its ranking.

Sigh...

All schools have programs where you can work with practicing attorneys. They are generally called "clinics."

There precptor program will in no way help them overcome their lack of alumni network.

sigh...

[climbintolaw]

Someone is very lonely. ^

[Nicholasnickynic]

Some one is very witty! ^

[actorlaw]

I got an email the same day and got a letter about 3 days later.

I'm most likely going to Elon because of the scholarship I got. I fully believe the school will be completely accredited by the ABA at the end of the summer, considering their employment rates, pass rate on the bar, and their success in competition. Of course I have no idea if there are other criteria that go into the process, but it seems like those would have some bearing on it.

I'm also turning in the leadership fellows essays today, has anyone heard back from that process?

Not yet. They offered $16000/yr in regular scholarship so if I am able to get both it might be worth it but with tuition at over 30K I don't really see how I can take on so much debt for a school that doesn't quite have a reputation yet.

I really encourage you to read more about what Elon offers. If you read the faculty bios, you'll see that many of them are from very distinguished schools and published experts. I would imagine that's typical of any law school, but what they offer students simply is not. Their preceptor program is a fantastic way to get direct experience working under an attorney and can help secure internships/jobs in summers or after graduation. It helps give students actual contacts in the legal field, shadowing experience, and work experience. The law school actually has a courtroom inside of it, which is pretty unique. The student organizations are comparable to other law schools, and the leadership fellows program allows students to meet first-hand with guests brought in by the law school (most recently Sandra Day O'Connor). Their employment rate for their first graduating class in this economy was right below 90% at 9 months, and their bar passage rate was comparable to other schools in the area.

Sure, they don't have much of a reputation...yet. But once lawyers and law schools in the area start to reflect on Elon's success in national moot court competitions, they might take it a bit more seriously. By the time the class of 2013 graduates, there will certainly be some successful firms with Elon graduates who will have shown the employers in those firms that they are serious lawyers. The network won't be nearly as big as that of UNC or Campbell, but it will be big enough to force employers to consider Elon graduates as legitmate employees.

I can see the reluctance, but you've got a half-tuition scholarship. If you've got an offer that is comparable to attend Campbell, I'd seriously suggest you think more about what the schools offer rather than their reputations. If you're considering other schools in NC that are cheaper, like Central, then it may be better for you go with the cheaper tuition with a comparable or slightly better reputation. But I would certainly place the quality of education and likelihood of an improved reputation at Elon above every law school in the state except Duke.

I guess it really comes down to wanting to be a person who develops the reputation of the quality of a school rather than riding on the reputation of another established institution. That's something that doesn't bother me, but I understand how it can be a serious concern. But if you're dedicated to being an exceptional student and practitioner of law, it really won't matter where you graduated from once you've been working for a few years. You can do exceptional work at a crappy firm if that's what it takes, and you've really got to think about just how far a school's reputation will assist in actually being offered a job and excelling at it. A reputation of a law shcool won't grant that excellence in itself, and a poor firm doesn't necessarily have to hinder it. Sometimes you just have to work for things, and no acceptable law school is going to make that easy.

Blatant Elon Trolling. Get used to it people...

[MrMcAllister]

Sure, undergraduate and graduate success/recognition at Elon does not necessarily mean that the law school will have such recognition/success. I just tend to be optimistic in trusting that the university simply isn't going to throw away its huge new investment by not supplying the law school with similar tools for success.

Sigh...
they can have all the tools they want.
A little over 60% of USNWR is reputation + gpa +lsat.

Thats something that no amount of money or tools can get.

I want to echo the sentiment above... its a good school, and I'm sure it will give you a good education... just please make sure you know what you are getting into in terms of a financial investment.

Also... being new is actually NOT good. It means you have no alumni network to help you get hired.

If you're going to quote me, do it well. Read the rest of that paragraph you quoted.

The lack of an alumni network is at least partially offset by its preceptor program, which gives first-year students contacts and hands-on experience with practicing attorneys (even through the attorey general's office). I didn't even argue in support of its newness; I acknowledged the lack of an alumni network and outlined steps being taken to improve its ranking.

Sigh...

All schools have programs where you can work with practicing attorneys. They are generally called "clinics."

There precptor program will in no way help them overcome their lack of alumni network.

sigh...

The preceptor program is different from typical clinics. While the student does typically observe trials, client interactions, etc., the observation swings both ways with the preceptor acting as a mentor and spending time in classroom observation with the assigned student. Like other law schools, Elon has its own clinical law center. The clinical center is where students can exercise their legal skills; the preceptor program is where incoming students can help secure an understanding and development of those skills before exercising them in a more partially-independent environment through a clinic.

You say that this program will, in no way, help Elon overcome its lack of an alumni network. This is simply a false statement. Perhaps you can explain how such a program simply fails to provide contacts in the legal community? Perhaps you can explain how having contacts in the legal community will have no effect on employment opportunities? The program won't help Elon become a T1 school in the next year, but it certainly has an effect (at least partially, as I noted in the post you quoted) on the develoment of an alumni network over time.

Even if the preceptor program were just a typical clinic, do you actually think "all" law schools would offer those clinics if they didn't increase the viability of the student as a legitimate attorney upon graduation? Experience in clinics assists students in developing a resume, receiving guidance from mentoring attorneys and judges, securing summer internships, and producing graduates with hands-on experience. This has no impact on developing an alumni network?

[Nicholasnickynic]

No. Sure, it will help them make connections. I'm sure it will get people jobs.

But it doesn't help their lack of alumni connections.

Other schools= community connections/clinics/preceptor program etc + alumni network
Elon = community connections/clinics/preceptor program etc. NO alumni network.

See how that works?

Elon is at a disadvantage because of the lack of alumni network, and the preceptor program does not help as all schools have something similar.

At the end of the day, Elon is at a massive disadvantage because of thier lack of alumni network, and there is no way for them to even the playing field (except time. Decades.)

This is fun

[Nicholasnickynic]

I got an email the same day and got a letter about 3 days later.

I'm most likely going to Elon because of the scholarship I got. I fully believe the school will be completely accredited by the ABA at the end of the summer, considering their employment rates, pass rate on the bar, and their success in competition. Of course I have no idea if there are other criteria that go into the process, but it seems like those would have some bearing on it.

I'm also turning in the leadership fellows essays today, has anyone heard back from that process?

Not yet. They offered $16000/yr in regular scholarship so if I am able to get both it might be worth it but with tuition at over 30K I don't really see how I can take on so much debt for a school that doesn't quite have a reputation yet.

I really encourage you to read more about what Elon offers. If you read the faculty bios, you'll see that many of them are from very distinguished schools and published experts. I would imagine that's typical of any law school, but what they offer students simply is not. Their preceptor program is a fantastic way to get direct experience working under an attorney and can help secure internships/jobs in summers or after graduation. It helps give students actual contacts in the legal field, shadowing experience, and work experience. The law school actually has a courtroom inside of it, which is pretty unique. The student organizations are comparable to other law schools, and the leadership fellows program allows students to meet first-hand with guests brought in by the law school (most recently Sandra Day O'Connor). Their employment rate for their first graduating class in this economy was right below 90% at 9 months, and their bar passage rate was comparable to other schools in the area.

Sure, they don't have much of a reputation...yet. But once lawyers and law schools in the area start to reflect on Elon's success in national moot court competitions, they might take it a bit more seriously. By the time the class of 2013 graduates, there will certainly be some successful firms with Elon graduates who will have shown the employers in those firms that they are serious lawyers. The network won't be nearly as big as that of UNC or Campbell, but it will be big enough to force employers to consider Elon graduates as legitmate employees.

I can see the reluctance, but you've got a half-tuition scholarship. If you've got an offer that is comparable to attend Campbell, I'd seriously suggest you think more about what the schools offer rather than their reputations. If you're considering other schools in NC that are cheaper, like Central, then it may be better for you go with the cheaper tuition with a comparable or slightly better reputation. But I would certainly place the quality of education and likelihood of an improved reputation at Elon above every law school in the state except Duke.

I guess it really comes down to wanting to be a person who develops the reputation of the quality of a school rather than riding on the reputation of another established institution. That's something that doesn't bother me, but I understand how it can be a serious concern. But if you're dedicated to being an exceptional student and practitioner of law, it really won't matter where you graduated from once you've been working for a few years. You can do exceptional work at a crappy firm if that's what it takes, and you've really got to think about just how far a school's reputation will assist in actually being offered a job and excelling at it. A reputation of a law shcool won't grant that excellence in itself, and a poor firm doesn't necessarily have to hinder it. Sometimes you just have to work for things, and no acceptable law school is going to make that easy.

Blatant Elon Trolling. Get used to it people...

subtle anti-wake forest trolling

[MrMcAllister]

No. Sure, it will help them make connections. I'm sure it will get people jobs.

But it doesn't help their lack of alumni connections.

Other schools= community connections/clinics/preceptor program etc + alumni network
Elon = community connections/clinics/preceptor program etc. NO alumni network.

See how that works?

Elon is at a disadvantage because of the lack of alumni network, and the preceptor program does not help as all schools have something similar.

At the end of the day, Elon is at a massive disadvantage because of thier lack of alumni network, and there is no way for them to even the playing field (except time. Decades.)

This is fun

Elon just had its first graduating class, so its alumni network does create a disadvantage. No one is ignoring that fact.

The preceptor program assists Elon's students in making connections. You acknowledge that. However, you fail to understand that those connections lead to internships and jobs, which assists in the establishment of an alumni network. Internships allow the law students to show their ability to grasp legal work and, upon doing good work, shows employers that the law students are legitimate employee prospects. When law students get hired, the alumni network begins to establish itself. This process has already begun with Elon's successful first-year high employment statistic. No one is saying that Elon has a vast alumni network. But you explicitly stated that the preceptor program has NO effect on an alumni network. Again, the preceptor program has assisted Elon's first graduating class with internships and employment opportunities, which has esbtalished the very foundation of an alumni network that will be built on in years to come. Will it take decades to be comparable? Perhaps. But that only forces Elon law students to intrude on the alumni networks of other schools until there is a substantial number of partnered Elon alumni. We'll see how comparable Elon's employment stats remain, but they are competitive thus far.

Further, you say that the preceptor program doesn't help Elon because other schools have them. Even if other schools have them, there is no reason to assume that they do not offer benefits to the students at those other schools with regard to employment opportunities. It's a rather dangerous assumption to assume that those other programs will somehow remove the benefit of the connections established through Elon's preceptor program. The effects of the preceptor program aren't eliminated because other schools have them. It's absolutely crazy to think that a network established through employers of Elon students (as interns or as practicing attorneys) will simply be eliminated solely because other schools have similar programs.

Out of curiosity, which other law schools in NC have a preceptor program?

[Nicholasnickynic]

Internships allow the law students [at Elon] to show their ability to grasp legal work and, upon doing good work, shows employers that the law students are legitimate employee prospects. When law students get hired...

Who says they are going to do those two things??

And I don't know that any other schools have a "preceptor program" (which is a rather silly name) but most schools have comparable opportunities.

I just feel like you have this idea that Elon has some revolutionary cutting edge program that will help all the students get hired, when in reality, plenty of schools have very similiar programs, and what Elon is doing is nothing special.

Furthermore, as noted above, this is all contingent on Elon students impressing employers. We don't know if they will do that, since, unlike some other NC schools, Elon students don't exactly have a track record.

[Nicholasnickynic]

It's a rather dangerous assumption to assume that those other programs will somehow remove the benefit of the connections established through Elon's preceptor program. The effects of the preceptor program aren't eliminated because other schools have them. It's absolutely crazy to think that a network established through employers of Elon students (as interns or as practicing attorneys) will simply be eliminated solely because other schools have similar programs.

I'm not saying they will remove the benefit...

I'm saying that the preceptor program will not help with Elon's lack of alumni network. (which you originally stated it would)

Lets break it down like this.

Hypothetically speaking, an average schools gets

5 people employed based on hard work/good grades
5 people employed based on preceptors/clinics etc
5 people employed based on alumni network

Established Old School X gets 15 students employed
-(5 from grades, 5 from preceptor, 5 from alumni)

Elon would only get ten students employed
-(5 from grades, 5 from preceptor, 0 from alumni)

The reason that Elon would do worse in this hypothetical situation is because they do not have an alumni network. Do you see how their preceptor program will not help them overcome their lack of an alumni network?

Its not giving them anything the other programs don't already have, so it doesn't give them any kind of advantage that makes up for having no alumni network.

Some one at old school x will be better off, because in addition to the preceptor/clinical opportunities, they also have an alumni network.

Sure, people will get jobs from the... god I dont want to say this word again... preceptor program.. but the fact of the matter is that it will not do anything to make up for the lack of alumni network.

It will not give them some special advantage.

[MrMcAllister]

I never said the preceptor program would make up for the lack of an alumni network. I said that it would partially assist in the establishment of that network. How does it do that? Well, following your model, if 5 students are hired because of the program, then that begins the establishment of alumni. The establishment of alumni begins the establishment of an alumni network. I never said that the preceptor program was the sell-all point for making an Elon law student superior to other law students. I simply said -again - that the preceptor program will be partially responsible for establishing its alumni network. You could use a model where ZERO students were hired solely because of the preceptor program, yet the program still could contribute to the establishment of an alumni network by simply assisting the students in harnessing the basic skills necessary to be a lawyer, which could be exemplified through typical clinics, non-preceptor-influenced internships, etc., which could help the student get hired, which would help establish the alumni network.

The program gives the students the opportuntity to engage in legal issues as an intern or employee. You question who says that the students will do good work and show that they are legitimate employee prospects. Well, its not a given fact that those things will occur. I simply said that internships ALLOW the law students to exemplify that - meaning it provides them with an opportunity to show that. That doesn't necessarily mean that they WILL show that they are capable - it doesn't even mean that they are capable. When the law student does show that they are capable and legitimate employee prospects, they increase the perception that they are qualified candidates, no?

The preceptor program provides law students with a consistent mentor who offers in-class observation of the student and in-court observation by the student. This offers the opportunity for the law student to harness and polish the skills necessary to perform well as an intern after their first year of mentoring. Does it necessarily provide those skills? No. Will students necessarily grasp them? No. Does it partially contribute to their success if they do? Yes. Does success of utilizing those skills contribute to being hired? Yes. Does being hired contribute to establishing an alumni network? Yes.

Most schools have comparable (to the preceptor program) opportunities? Like what? Short-term clinics, which have been established as being quite different? What other programs are comparable to 50 practicing attorneys and judges mentoring and observing students, offering students the opportunity to attend social events with the attorney/judge, offering shadowing experiences to the student, offering the students an opportunity to act on the advice of such an attorney/judge, and to see how a lawyer actaully works with clients and in the courtroom, who may allow the student to itern upon showing successful reaction to the experience?

Perhaps it is contingent on the students impressing employers. That is what's great about the preceptor program. They act as a mentor during the first year, which assists the students in harnessing the skills (with the help of performance feedback from the preceptor) to perform as students, interns, and attorneys. Further, I don't even know how your mind became wrapped around the notion that I think this will help all students get hired. I simply said that it partially contributes to the establishment of an alumni network. Your challenge to that notion (or perhaps unwillingness to simply see the word "partially") has resulted in excess attention placed on the preceptor program, which has probably contributed to your perception of my supposed reliance on or special consideration of the program.

[climbintolaw]

Don't feed the trolls, it's not good for them.

[Nicholasnickynic]

I never said the preceptor program would make up for the lack of an alumni network. I said that it would partially assist in the establishment of that network. How does it do that? Well, following your model, if 5 students are hired because of the program, then that begins the establishment of alumni. The establishment of alumni begins the establishment of an alumni network. I never said that the preceptor program was the sell-all point for making an Elon law student superior to other law students. I simply said -again - that the preceptor program will be partially responsible for establishing its alumni network. You could use a model where ZERO students were hired solely because of the preceptor program, yet the program still could contribute to the establishment of an alumni network by simply assisting the students in harnessing the basic skills necessary to be a lawyer, which could be exemplified through typical clinics, non-preceptor-influenced internships, etc., which could help the student get hired, which would help establish the alumni network.

The program gives the students the opportuntity to engage in legal issues as an intern or employee. You question who says that the students will do good work and show that they are legitimate employee prospects. Well, its not a given fact that those things will occur. I simply said that internships ALLOW the law students to exemplify that - meaning it provides them with an opportunity to show that. That doesn't necessarily mean that they WILL show that they are capable - it doesn't even mean that they are capable. When the law student does show that they are capable and legitimate employee prospects, they increase the perception that they are qualified candidates, no?

The preceptor program provides law students with a consistent mentor who offers in-class observation of the student and in-court observation by the student. This offers the opportunity for the law student to harness and polish the skills necessary to perform well as an intern after their first year of mentoring. Does it necessarily provide those skills? No. Will students necessarily grasp them? No. Does it partially contribute to their success if they do? Yes. Does success of utilizing those skills contribute to being hired? Yes. Does being hired contribute to establishing an alumni network? Yes.

Most schools have comparable (to the preceptor program) opportunities? Like what? Short-term clinics, which have been established as being quite different? What other programs are comparable to 50 practicing attorneys and judges mentoring and observing students, offering students the opportunity to attend social events with the attorney/judge, offering shadowing experiences to the student, offering the students an opportunity to act on the advice of such an attorney/judge, and to see how a lawyer actaully works with clients and in the courtroom, who may allow the student to itern upon showing successful reaction to the experience?

Perhaps it is contingent on the students impressing employers. That is what's great about the preceptor program. They act as a mentor during the first year, which assists the students in harnessing the skills (with the help of performance feedback from the preceptor) to perform as students, interns, and attorneys. Further, I don't even know how your mind became wrapped around the notion that I think this will help all students get hired. I simply said that it partially contributes to the establishment of an alumni network. Your challenge to that notion (or perhaps unwillingness to simply see the word "partially") has resulted in excess attention placed on the preceptor program, which has probably contributed to your perception of my supposed reliance on or special consideration of the program.

--ImageRemoved--
I am excited for you to do briefs in ls.

[Nicholasnickynic]

I never said the preceptor program would make up for the lack of an alumni network. I said that it would partially assist in the establishment of that network.

...

]The lack of an alumni network is at least partially offset by its preceptor program,

?

[MrMcAllister]

I never said the preceptor program would make up for the lack of an alumni network. I said that it would partially assist in the establishment of that network.

...

]The lack of an alumni network is at least partially offset by its preceptor program,

?

Does partially offsetting the alumni network make up for the lack of that network? No. That's why it only PARTIALLY offsets it.

By offset, I mean that the preceptor acts as an agent that contributes to the establishment of an alumni network, thus partially offsetting the lack of such a network. This has been stated quite a few times, now.

[MrMcAllister]

--ImageRemoved--
I am excited for you to do briefs in ls.

I am excited for you to read text in law school. Five pararaphs shouldn't seem like much of a wall after a few classes.

[Nicholasnickynic]

--ImageRemoved--
I am excited for you to do briefs in ls.

I am excited for you to read text in law school. Five pararaphs shouldn't seem like much of a wall after a few classes.

I am excited for me to read text in law school as well!

[marshalltucker]

The chances of Elon Law EVER being better than Wake Forest Law is close to zero, the chances of Elon law being better than Campbell in the foreseeable future are also pretty damn low. I've heard of people getting in there with high 130s, thats not the only reason they are bad but it is one of them.

[MrMcAllister]

The chances of Elon Law EVER being better than Wake Forest Law is close to zero, the chances of Elon law being better than Campbell in the foreseeable future are also pretty damn low. I've heard of people getting in there with high 130s, thats not the only reason they are bad but it is one of them.

Forseeable future?

I bet you had one hell of a personal statement with those kinds of skills.

[PirateCap'n]

The chances of Elon Law EVER being better than Wake Forest Law is close to zero, the chances of Elon law being better than Campbell in the foreseeable future are also pretty damn low. I've heard of people getting in there with high 130s, thats not the only reason they are bad but it is one of them.

Forseeable future?

I bet you had one hell of a personal statement with those kinds of skills.

Not that I have much of a dog in this fight, but has anyone ever told you that you're an ass? (I generally don't call out folks on a message board for stupidity, but you're an idiot). There's no need to demean others because you like Elon, and they choose to state very reasonable opinions about it. It sure sounds like you're just now realizing what you might be getting yourself into, and you obviously don't like what you hear.

I like Elon. Had a friend that went there. However, it's a start-up law school that has a LONG way to go to catch up to any of the established law schools in NC -- including Campbell and possibly Central. Nobody is bashing Elon. It is a great undergrad and will, one day, be a fairly successful law school. However, at the moment, it is not. It's one thing to stand up for your school. If you're paying money to attend, then, by all means, defend away. BUT, when people start stating the facts about the school, you shouldn't be so upset. Is the preceptor program a good thing? Probably. Is it going to make Elon a top 50 law school in the next ten years? Not a chance. With the exception of UC-Irvine (which is even questionable itself), law schools do not really shoot up in the rankings. Elon has a good reputation as a challenging undergrad. That will probably eventually carry over into the law school, but that does not mean that it will make it anywhere near comparable to UNC, WFU, etc. It will likely end up somewhere around Campbell (which is highly respected in the state but still isn't UNC/WFU) with a good reputation for producing NC Bar-ready attorneys. It will probably get students jobs in the state -- but don't expect it to ever carry the reputation of the higher-level NC schools.

Now, I'm sure you'll have some lovely comeback that somehow has absolutely nothing to do with what I just said, and I'm sure that my writing skills will probably be critiqued by the "omniscient" Mr. McAllister. Either way, you need to learn how to argue without resorting to being an ass. I wish you luck in law school and pray that you aren't as insufferable with classmates as you are on here.

[climbintolaw]

Hilarious. This web sites has the biggest collection of douche bags I've ever seen in my life. I don't really care what anyone thinks of Elon, but I come to this thread to be a part of a community of peers; people I may be in class with in the Fall. Instead of discussing any pertinent issues or emotions involving Elon for a prospective student, all of the relevant community members are run away by douche bags who have no interest in the school other than to denigrate it. Get a life people. You suck.

[scruffs mcguff]

The chances of Elon Law EVER being better than Wake Forest Law is close to zero, the chances of Elon law being better than Campbell in the foreseeable future are also pretty damn low. I've heard of people getting in there with high 130s, thats not the only reason they are bad but it is one of them.

Forseeable future?

I bet you had one hell of a personal statement with those kinds of skills.

Wasn't going to comment but what does this mean? The person spelled the word correctly? Are you bashing word choice now?

[MrMcAllister]

The chances of Elon Law EVER being better than Wake Forest Law is close to zero, the chances of Elon law being better than Campbell in the foreseeable future are also pretty damn low. I've heard of people getting in there with high 130s, thats not the only reason they are bad but it is one of them.

Forseeable future?

I bet you had one hell of a personal statement with those kinds of skills.

Not that I have much of a dog in this fight, but has anyone ever told you that you're an ass? (I generally don't call out folks on a message board for stupidity, but you're an idiot). There's no need to demean others because you like Elon, and they choose to state very reasonable opinions about it. It sure sounds like you're just now realizing what you might be getting yourself into, and you obviously don't like what you hear.

I like Elon. Had a friend that went there. However, it's a start-up law school that has a LONG way to go to catch up to any of the established law schools in NC -- including Campbell and possibly Central. Nobody is bashing Elon. It is a great undergrad and will, one day, be a fairly successful law school. However, at the moment, it is not. It's one thing to stand up for your school. If you're paying money to attend, then, by all means, defend away. BUT, when people start stating the facts about the school, you shouldn't be so upset. Is the preceptor program a good thing? Probably. Is it going to make Elon a top 50 law school in the next ten years? Not a chance. With the exception of UC-Irvine (which is even questionable itself), law schools do not really shoot up in the rankings. Elon has a good reputation as a challenging undergrad. That will probably eventually carry over into the law school, but that does not mean that it will make it anywhere near comparable to UNC, WFU, etc. It will likely end up somewhere around Campbell (which is highly respected in the state but still isn't UNC/WFU) with a good reputation for producing NC Bar-ready attorneys. It will probably get students jobs in the state -- but don't expect it to ever carry the reputation of the higher-level NC schools.

Now, I'm sure you'll have some lovely comeback that somehow has absolutely nothing to do with what I just said, and I'm sure that my writing skills will probably be critiqued by the "omniscient" Mr. McAllister. Either way, you need to learn how to argue without resorting to being an ass. I wish you luck in law school and pray that you aren't as insufferable with classmates as you are on here.

Cheer up buttercup.

You say that I have demeaned others who have shown very reasonable opinions. I urge you to reread this discussion. Perhaps you'll see how the discussion largely revolved around one poster's misconception of the program and what I had to say about it. The discussion was largely centered around the role of the preceptor program in assisting the establishment of an alumni network.

Perhaps you missed the irrationality of some of these posters. "uh...not a chance" regarding Elon being comparable to Wake Forest. Well, there is a chance - even if its small. This poster went on to make the exact opposite argument that you just made (arging against the strength of the undergrad and grad programs transferring to the law school). Is that one of those reasonable facts? I don't think I got upset about what this poster had to say. The discussion was quite civil at this point.

Another poster: "the preceptor program will in no way help them overcome their lack of an alumni network. sigh..." The sigh was the first aspect of "demeaning" in this discussion, and NicholasNickyNic expressed his/her sentiments when saying, "this is fun." Would it have been less demeaning of me to leave out my reciprocating "sigh...?" Is it demeaning of me to demand that this poster provide examples of other programs at local law schools that are similar to the preceptor program - when they say repeatedly that such comparable programs exist? Is that the reasonable point that was raised against me (and went undefended by that poster, btw)? Was it me who was being demeaning by reciprocating the "fun" sarcasm to this poster? Or is clarifying what I mean, probing what others say, and demanding suport for one's claims what you find demeaning?

Another poster heard that Elon lets in folks with 130s lsats, and that's not the only thing that makes it bad. This poster couldn't resist unnecessary broad, negative, vagueness. What a way to make a resounding factual point! Do you actually expect me to take such a comment seriously? The poster heard something (but didn't mention that they bothered taking the time to look up the facts about what they heard...or not?) and vaguely fails to mention the other things that make Elon a "bad" school. Is that the reasonable opinion to which you refer? If so, I'll guide you to the lsat/gpa charts on LSAC as the ones for Campbell and Elon are strikingly similar (except the slightly different format). Is that why Elon has, in your opinion, a "LONG" way to go to catch up to Campbell or Central? Even if Elon did admit an extremely small minority of scorers in the 130s, that wouldn't necessarily equate to a bad school. Examining the legal understanding and abilities of those students after completion of law school would show more about Elon than the fact that those few people may have been admitted. But the "factual claims" of the poster didn't seem to want to exemplify that.

The reality is that these people simply aren't stating facts. They are making assertions for which they have provided very little compelling evidence to support their claims.

No one said the preceptor program will, on its own, make Elon a top 50 school in the next decade. I made it quite clear that the preceptor program PARTIALLY contributes to the establishment of an alumni network. That's what the discussion of the preceptor program was about. Why would you make the comment that I would respond in a manner that is irrelevant to what you have said? Have I established a tendency to respond with information that is completely irrelevant to the discussion? Perhaps you wouldn't mind showing some examples to support your thoughts. And why would you be so sure that I would respond with a critique of your writing skills? Have I also established that tendency? Do you mind showing some examples of that? Or is that another one of those "reasonable" facts?

Turn that frown upside down, buddy.

[MrMcAllister]

The chances of Elon Law EVER being better than Wake Forest Law is close to zero, the chances of Elon law being better than Campbell in the foreseeable future are also pretty damn low. I've heard of people getting in there with high 130s, thats not the only reason they are bad but it is one of them.

Forseeable future?

I bet you had one hell of a personal statement with those kinds of skills.

Wasn't going to comment but what does this mean? The person spelled the word correctly? Are you bashing word choice now?

I was being sarcastic by implying that the personal statement of that poster must have been awesome with skills that can see into the future. Not really an attack on word choice - more of an attack on the entire post. This poster "heard" something? And that's part of why the school is bad? But not the only reason? It just seemed like a vague waste of a criticism of the school, so I treated it as such.