Top Law Schools

So far these are my top two choices. Ohio is a much better school. Miami is... in Miami. Any suggestions?

Where do you want to practice ultimately?

Also, which two schools in those locations are you comparing? I can only assume you are debating OSU versus University of Miami but it would help to know for sure.

These two schools are close enough in rank to where both are regional schools. Cost of living is probably cheaper at THE Ohio State University. But then you are stuck living in Ohio. If you go to U of Miami then you pay to play. If you go to Miami you might see stiffer competition from the Florida and Florida State where as I think Ohio is the big dog of its state.

darknightbegins wrote:These two schools are close enough in rank to where both are regional schools. Cost of living is probably cheaper at THE Ohio State University. But then you are stuck living in Ohio. If you go to U of Miami then you pay to play. If you go to Miami you might see stiffer competition from the Florida and Florida State where as I think Ohio is the big dog of its state.

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darknightbegins wrote:These two schools are close enough in rank to where both are regional schools. Cost of living is probably cheaper at THE Ohio State University. But then you are stuck living in Ohio. If you go to U of Miami then you pay to play. If you go to Miami you might see stiffer competition from the Florida and Florida State where as I think Ohio is the big dog of its state.

If you call 71st and 35th close in rankings, then, yeah, they are similar quality schools. I guess that makes Ohio State similar to HYS.

In all seriousness, it depends on where you want to live/practice. I will say I know two people who went to UMiami. Both hated it so much that one dropped out of law school completely and the other transferred to Ohio State, ironically, and loved their last two years.

Do you really believe Ohio State is anything more than a regional powerhouse?

darknightbegins wrote:Do you really believe Ohio State is anything more than a regional powerhouse?

I believe Ohio State is a regional powerhouse from which a top graduate might have an ever so slight chance at big law. Slight.

I believe UMiami is not even a regional powerhouse and cannot be compared to Ohio State, just like OSU can't be compared to HYS.

Helmholtz wrote:

darknightbegins wrote:Do you really believe Ohio State is anything more than a regional powerhouse?

Ohio St. = regional powerhouse
Miami = regional 3rd best school in its state

OP, just pick where you want to live and if you're indifferent, go to Ohio State, you have a better chance at a decent job out of there.

TITCR

FreshPrince wrote:

darknightbegins wrote:Do you really believe Ohio State is anything more than a regional powerhouse?

I believe Ohio State is a regional powerhouse from which a top graduate might have an ever so slight chance at big law. Slight.

I believe UMiami is not even a regional powerhouse and cannot be compared to Ohio State, just like OSU can't be compared to HYS.

UMiami is the best school in a much bigger market than the market Ohio State has. I will concede that Miami faces tougher competition in its state but it also has a huge market in South Florida. The OP likely has almost the same shot at biglaw at either of these schools. Ohio is the top dog in its state but it is a smaller market.

Helmholtz wrote:

darknightbegins wrote:

FreshPrince wrote:

darknightbegins wrote:Do you really believe Ohio State is anything more than a regional powerhouse?

I believe Ohio State is a regional powerhouse from which a top graduate might have an ever so slight chance at big law. Slight.

I believe UMiami is not even a regional powerhouse and cannot be compared to Ohio State, just like OSU can't be compared to HYS.

UMiami is the best school in a much bigger market than the market Ohio State has. I will concede that Miami faces tougher competition in its state but it also has a huge market in South Florida. The OP likely has almost the same shot at biglaw at either of these schools. Ohio is the top dog in its state but it is a smaller market.

Ohio State has typically had nearly double the biglaw placement of UMiami. Considering the fact that Ohio State grads are in a state that has Columbus, Cleveland, and Cincinnati, it's really not as small of a market that you're making it out to be. Jones Day and Squire Sanders alone have nearly 600 lawyers in the state. I've been to both of their Cleveland offices and was pretty damn impressed.

I agree. Plus, considering you have to go as far west as IU and as far east as UPenn to get to a school at or above OSU's caliber, I think Ohio State's market is a lot larger than UMiami.

FreshPrince wrote:
I agree. Plus, considering you have to go as far west as IU and as far east as UPenn to get to a school at or above OSU's caliber, I think Ohio State's market is a lot larger than UMiami.

Michigan is right across the border....

MU2009 wrote:

FreshPrince wrote:
I agree. Plus, considering you have to go as far west as IU and as far east as UPenn to get to a school at or above OSU's caliber, I think Ohio State's market is a lot larger than UMiami.

Michigan is right across the border....

Michigan doesn't really cross the border. Whether that has to do with self-selection or Ohio firms hating on Michigan because of a football rivalry, I don't know. Ohio is a big legal market, much larger than Miami, and OSU grads have access to Cincinnati, Cleveland, and Columbus. Miami does have better weather though, so do whatever.

Helmholtz wrote:

Notor wrote:

MU2009 wrote:

FreshPrince wrote:
I agree. Plus, considering you have to go as far west as IU and as far east as UPenn to get to a school at or above OSU's caliber, I think Ohio State's market is a lot larger than UMiami.

Michigan is right across the border....

Michigan doesn't really cross the border. Whether that has to do with self-selection or Ohio firms hating on Michigan because of a football rivalry, I don't know.

Haha, going to assume that was a joke.

You mean Michigan's football team? Yeah, pretty much.


/2009 Big 10 Conference Record, OSU: 7-1, Michigan 1-7.

Helmholtz wrote:

darknightbegins wrote:Do you really believe Ohio State is anything more than a regional powerhouse?

Ohio St. = regional powerhouse
Miami = regional 3rd best school in its state

OP, just pick where you want to live and if you're indifferent, go to Ohio State, you have a better chance at a decent job out of there.

True. In addition, The Ohio State University may have a lot more lay prestige nationally. I'm from the West Coast and Ohio State is regarded as a solid school acadmecally out here, while Miami is kind of just known as an OK school and a football factory.

All of the Big 10 schools are somewhat highly regarded out west though. I don't know why, but they are. Now, this could just be my impression, but I've lived in a few major cities on the West Coast so I'm pretty sure my opinion is well informed.

Whether this possible advantage in terms of lay prestige equals better employment prospects, I'm not sure.

When it comes to law school rankings, etc, what impact do they have when one looks for a job outside of his/her region? How often do hiring managers/partners pull out the US News rankings when evaluating the qualifications of an applicant on paper if the applicant is from another region? Is US News used as a reference point? Any guesses?

Helmholtz wrote:

qualster wrote: When it comes to law school rankings, etc, what impact do they have when one looks for a job outside of his/her region? How often do hiring managers/partners pull out the US News rankings when evaluating the qualifications of an applicant on paper if the applicant is from another region? Is US News used as a reference point? Any guesses?

I work in a law firm and know a decent number of attorneys. I honestly cannot see them ever looking up the USNWR rankings to try to gauge the strength of a law school. If any new associates were going to be hired, chances are the person would be coming from a local school, from a nationally known school (e.g. Duke or Cornell), or from a semi-national school (e.g. Vandy or Texas). I seriously doubt that the managing partners at my firm would care whether somebody was coming from Cardozo or Marquette, probably would be the same in their eyes, and I don't think they would look up some magazine's rankings of law schools to get a better idea of which one was the "better school." Really, there are probably more than a hundred law schools out there that attorneys in my office don't even know exist and/or have no idea the quality of. Honestly, they would probably be more apt to hire from a local T4 than from UMiami.

So what about Tttt vs Ohio St, Wisconsin, Maryland or Arizona? Those schools are 1st tier programs. Do they have any pull nationally as a result of their rankings? Do they have any kind of reputation bump beyond their respective regions? Would they at least be considered better than the local TTTs or TTTTs? I know these are hypotheticals and it's hard for you to say, but what is your opinion?

Helmholtz wrote:

qualster wrote:

Helmholtz wrote:

qualster wrote: When it comes to law school rankings, etc, what impact do they have when one looks for a job outside of his/her region? How often do hiring managers/partners pull out the US News rankings when evaluating the qualifications of an applicant on paper if the applicant is from another region? Is US News used as a reference point? Any guesses?

I work in a law firm and know a decent number of attorneys. I honestly cannot see them ever looking up the USNWR rankings to try to gauge the strength of a law school. If any new associates were going to be hired, chances are the person would be coming from a local school, from a nationally known school (e.g. Duke or Cornell), or from a semi-national school (e.g. Vandy or Texas). I seriously doubt that the managing partners at my firm would care whether somebody was coming from Cardozo or Marquette, probably would be the same in their eyes, and I don't think they would look up some magazine's rankings of law schools to get a better idea of which one was the "better school." Really, there are probably more than a hundred law schools out there that attorneys in my office don't even know exist and/or have no idea the quality of. Honestly, they would probably be more apt to hire from a local T4 than from UMiami.

So what about Tttt vs Ohio St, Wisconsin, Maryland or Arizona? Those schools are 1st tier programs. Do they have any pull nationally as a result of their rankings? Do they have any kind of reputation bump beyond their respective regions? Would they at least be considered better than the local TTTs or TTTTs? I know these are hypotheticals and it's hard for you to say, but what is your opinion?

They might have more national name recognition, but it seems like a lot of attorneys I know judge schools based off of what they've seen from alumni and/or the school's reputation in general if the school is well-known (e.g. an attorney might never have interacted with a Yale grad, but that's not going to stop them from respecting their degree). For example, I think firms in Northeast Ohio would be more willing to hire Cleveland State grads than Arizona grads. But it's really difficult to give a blanket statement.

Makes sense.

Helmholtz wrote:

qualster wrote:

Helmholtz wrote:

qualster wrote: When it comes to law school rankings, etc, what impact do they have when one looks for a job outside of his/her region? How often do hiring managers/partners pull out the US News rankings when evaluating the qualifications of an applicant on paper if the applicant is from another region? Is US News used as a reference point? Any guesses?

I work in a law firm and know a decent number of attorneys. I honestly cannot see them ever looking up the USNWR rankings to try to gauge the strength of a law school. If any new associates were going to be hired, chances are the person would be coming from a local school, from a nationally known school (e.g. Duke or Cornell), or from a semi-national school (e.g. Vandy or Texas). I seriously doubt that the managing partners at my firm would care whether somebody was coming from Cardozo or Marquette, probably would be the same in their eyes, and I don't think they would look up some magazine's rankings of law schools to get a better idea of which one was the "better school." Really, there are probably more than a hundred law schools out there that attorneys in my office don't even know exist and/or have no idea the quality of. Honestly, they would probably be more apt to hire from a local T4 than from UMiami.

So what about Tttt vs Ohio St, Wisconsin, Maryland or Arizona? Those schools are 1st tier programs. Do they have any pull nationally as a result of their rankings? Do they have any kind of reputation bump beyond their respective regions? Would they at least be considered better than the local TTTs or TTTTs? I know these are hypotheticals and it's hard for you to say, but what is your opinion?

They might have more national name recognition, but it seems like a lot of attorneys I know judge schools based off of what they've seen from alumni and/or the school's reputation in general if the school is well-known (e.g. an attorney might never have interacted with a Yale grad, but that's not going to stop them from respecting their degree). For example, I think firms in Northeast Ohio would be more willing to hire Cleveland State grads than Arizona grads. But it's really difficult to give a blanket statement.

Here's a question, then: would a firm in northeast Ohio be more willing to hire a Cleveland State grad than, say, an Alabama grad? Or maybe a Boston College grad? How far up the rankings do you have to go for a Tier 1 non-local school to out-weigh a local tier 3 or 4 law school? Where's the break-even point?

FreshPrince wrote: Here's a question, then: would a firm in northeast Ohio be more willing to hire a Cleveland State grad than, say, an Alabama grad? Or maybe a Boston College grad? How far up the rankings do you have to go for a Tier 1 non-local school to out-weigh a local tier 3 or 4 law school? Where's the break-even point?

I think that apart from the truly national schools (aka the T14 or so), the people hiring you do not know and/or care if one school is ranked 30 vs 71. Once you leave the top law school area, I think it depends almost entirely on the strength of the school's reputation and alumni network (and grades, of course) in the area in which you are searching for a job (with the caveat that if the person hiring hails from your random regional school on the other side of the nation, then, sure the game changes). This has been reiterated to me again and again by practicing attorneys and law students.

My friend is at Miami and underwent OCI this past fall and confirmed this for me. Most of the firms couldn't care less (or have no idea) that Miami is ranked 72 vs UF at 51 and said they believed it was on par with UF or FSU (unless they were Gator alums, of course!). UF+FSU are state schools and so have a larger alumni network. So I think that differences in placement in So. Florida are due in part to that and not some wide-spread knowledge among employers of the middle-of-the-pack USNWR rankings.

So bottom line, OP, pick a region you want to work in because more than likely, your jobs will be largely limited to that school's respective region.

So want to freeze your ass off watching the Cavs after they lose Lebron next year or want to enjoy South Beach?

Miami of Ohio, best of both worlds.