Top Law Schools

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emorystud2010 wrote: My questions to you all are: 1) Is this a bad sign about things to come with the other schools? 2) How much scholarship money (half, full, no amount is enough) would make it worth it in the long run to attend Cardozo or Pepperdine, or is no amount worth it (meaning taking a year off to restudy for the lsat)? 3) Do softs like coming from a poor family, honor societies, student government, work experience, or a top 20 school matter at all anymore? 4) Should I send a LOCI to Fordham/U of I, and if so what should i include?

Thanks everyone

1) you can interpret it as a bad sign. but some schools will like you and some wont. it's not formulaic that if you get into 15 ranked you will get into 20 ranked.
2) Those schools are on opposite sides of the country. it will depend on where you want to be because they would both place much better in their native markets than in another state.
3) the soft that matters is URM (and possibly economic adversity). Work experience only matters if you are at the point where you have a career. 1-2 years is not really work experience, it's "trying it out". undergrad school matters if it was maybe HYP, but otherwise nope.
4) LOCIs are a good idea. there are guides on this site to writing them.

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You may not have the biglaw prospects of a T14, but Pepperdine or Cardozo shouldn't be terrible schools (despite what people say here).

If you applied in that range with 162/3.6, you will probably get more rejections than acceptances. I am a bit below you, and I focused more on the 30-75 range, and I'll probably have a similar experience.

But, on the bright side, if you don't care about where in the country you are, other than having access to a large legal market, you already have an option for NYC and for LA.

You will have everyone here hop in and tell you T14 or bust, or it's a waste. But if you want to practice law, and can be happy at Pepperdine or Cardozo (not my first choices, but I think I could be happy at both, honestly), I'm sure you can make a career of it.

I'm not sure why you bolded Georgia, Mason, and Hastings. Are you trying to indicate that you're surprised at these rejections? In the case of Georgia and Mason, you're below both the LSAT and GPA medians, and at Hastings you're only just at the GPA median. From my experience so far with this process, you need to have both LSAT and GPA scores at or above the medians to give yourself a really good shot at admission. Your softs will only help in some cases.


Not trying to sound like a jackass, just throwing my two cents based on my experience.

Great Satchmo wrote:You may not have the biglaw prospects of a T14, but Pepperdine or Cardozo shouldn't be terrible schools (despite what people say here).

If you applied in that range with 162/3.6, you will probably get more rejections than acceptances. I am a bit below you, and I focused more on the 30-75 range, and I'll probably have a similar experience.

But, on the bright side, if you don't care about where in the country you are, other than having access to a large legal market, you already have an option for NYC and for LA.

You will have everyone here hop in and tell you T14 or bust, or it's a waste. But if you want to practice law, and can be happy at Pepperdine or Cardozo (not my first choices, but I think I could be happy at both, honestly), I'm sure you can make a career of it.

Agree. Your competitive in the 30 - 75 range. Remember with the crappy economy applications are up across the board and while your numbers may have gotten you into a Top 30 school a few years ago, competition is much stiffer now.

My advice to you hommie in picking a school is you need to decide what is most important to you. Where do you want to work/live? Do you want to get into a more "prestigeous" school and be saddled with $175,000 or would you accept "lesser" school who offers you $$$ and you maybe only borrow $50,000? These are the types of things I feel you should be thinking about.

TLS has a real heavy east coast (elite) bias when it comes to their opinions on schools and career prospects, if this is what has you worried. Basically some would posture that all hope is lost because you are not in the T14. This couldn't be further from the truth. Law school will be what YOU make of it. While I do agree that T14 schools open more doors as far as initial job recruiting, they however do not ensure you are going to be a great attorney. Case in point, my mom was the asst. GC at Goodyear, made a great living, and received her JD from Akron. There were numerous attorneys in her office from schools with very elite reps (Columbia, Northwestern, Harvard, Yale...) who, according to her, were lousy. They may have gotten that big law job right away from their schools rep, but they obviously didn't keep it and ended up becoming subordinates to an Akron grad (oh the inhumanity). Like I said, law school and more importantly your career are going to be what you make of it. If you decide to attend a Pepperdine like school, work hard and finish in the top 25%, you will be just as competitive as someone who attended a "higher ranked school".

I know I have been preaching a lil bit but I feel you needed to hear it, I think you are too concerned with what US News has to say.

not to be an ass but you should have studied LSN before applying to that many schools.

To be frank, you were slim for GMU - especially with them trying to get up the rankings by admitting 166+s.

I thought Cardozo had decent prospects for NYC (?).

gator08 wrote:

Great Satchmo wrote:You may not have the biglaw prospects of a T14, but Pepperdine or Cardozo shouldn't be terrible schools (despite what people say here).

If you applied in that range with 162/3.6, you will probably get more rejections than acceptances. I am a bit below you, and I focused more on the 30-75 range, and I'll probably have a similar experience.

But, on the bright side, if you don't care about where in the country you are, other than having access to a large legal market, you already have an option for NYC and for LA.

You will have everyone here hop in and tell you T14 or bust, or it's a waste. But if you want to practice law, and can be happy at Pepperdine or Cardozo (not my first choices, but I think I could be happy at both, honestly), I'm sure you can make a career of it.

Agree. Your competitive in the 30 - 75 range. Remember with the crappy economy applications are up across the board and while your numbers may have gotten you into a Top 30 school a few years ago, competition is much stiffer now.

My advice to you hommie in picking a school is you need to decide what is most important to you. Where do you want to work/live? Do you want to get into a more "prestigeous" school and be saddled with $175,000 or would you accept "lesser" school who offers you $$$ and you maybe only borrow $50,000? These are the types of things I feel you should be thinking about.

TLS has a real heavy east coast (elite) bias when it comes to their opinions on schools and career prospects, if this is what has you worried. Basically some would posture that all hope is lost because you are not in the T14. This couldn't be further from the truth. Law school will be what YOU make of it. While I do agree that T14 schools open more doors as far as initial job recruiting, they however do not ensure you are going to be a great attorney. Case in point, my mom was the asst. GC at Goodyear, made a great living, and received her JD from Akron. There were numerous attorneys in her office from schools with very elite reps (Columbia, Northwestern, Harvard, Yale...) who, according to her, were lousy. They may have gotten that big law job right away from their schools rep, but they obviously didn't keep it and ended up becoming subordinates to an Akron grad (oh the inhumanity). Like I said, law school and more importantly your career are going to be what you make of it. If you decide to attend a Pepperdine like school, work hard and finish in the top 25%, you will be just as competitive as someone who attended a "higher ranked school".

I know I have been preaching a lil bit but I feel you needed to hear it, I think you are too concerned with what US News has to say.

+1. I always thought getting into high ranking schools would be the ultimate key to opening "doors" but its just a "doormat". IMHO, doing average at T14 is maybe worse than doing top 5-10% at lower tier 1 or top tier 2 schools.

nooyyllib wrote:

gator08 wrote:

Great Satchmo wrote:You may not have the biglaw prospects of a T14, but Pepperdine or Cardozo shouldn't be terrible schools (despite what people say here).

If you applied in that range with 162/3.6, you will probably get more rejections than acceptances. I am a bit below you, and I focused more on the 30-75 range, and I'll probably have a similar experience.

But, on the bright side, if you don't care about where in the country you are, other than having access to a large legal market, you already have an option for NYC and for LA.

You will have everyone here hop in and tell you T14 or bust, or it's a waste. But if you want to practice law, and can be happy at Pepperdine or Cardozo (not my first choices, but I think I could be happy at both, honestly), I'm sure you can make a career of it.

Agree. Your competitive in the 30 - 75 range. Remember with the crappy economy applications are up across the board and while your numbers may have gotten you into a Top 30 school a few years ago, competition is much stiffer now.

My advice to you hommie in picking a school is you need to decide what is most important to you. Where do you want to work/live? Do you want to get into a more "prestigeous" school and be saddled with $175,000 or would you accept "lesser" school who offers you $$$ and you maybe only borrow $50,000? These are the types of things I feel you should be thinking about.

TLS has a real heavy east coast (elite) bias when it comes to their opinions on schools and career prospects, if this is what has you worried. Basically some would posture that all hope is lost because you are not in the T14. This couldn't be further from the truth. Law school will be what YOU make of it. While I do agree that T14 schools open more doors as far as initial job recruiting, they however do not ensure you are going to be a great attorney. Case in point, my mom was the asst. GC at Goodyear, made a great living, and received her JD from Akron. There were numerous attorneys in her office from schools with very elite reps (Columbia, Northwestern, Harvard, Yale...) who, according to her, were lousy. They may have gotten that big law job right away from their schools rep, but they obviously didn't keep it and ended up becoming subordinates to an Akron grad (oh the inhumanity). Like I said, law school and more importantly your career are going to be what you make of it. If you decide to attend a Pepperdine like school, work hard and finish in the top 25%, you will be just as competitive as someone who attended a "higher ranked school".

I know I have been preaching a lil bit but I feel you needed to hear it, I think you are too concerned with what US News has to say.

+1. I always thought getting into high ranking schools would be the ultimate key to opening "doors" but its just a "doormat". IMHO, doing average at T14 is maybe worse than doing top 5-10% at lower tier 1 or top tier 2 schools.

Agree. I would rather be top 10/25 % at a lower teir 1 high tier 2 and not be saddled with too much debt than be avg/below at a T14.

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emorystud2010 wrote:Thanks for all the responses everyone. I know that maybe i was stretching a bit with the places i was applying, but i thought softs and an economic urm would make a difference. my question then is: would it be worth it to take a year off to restudy for the lsat (i already did a princeton review class) to get into a better place, or should i just go with wherever i get in and hope that working hard works?

was that your first time taking the LSAT?

if it was your first time and you have the time and money, I would suggest you retake in june and apply early next cycle. also do something in the legal area during the summer (interning, community work, etc).

Only risk is your LSAT score not increasing and dropping. I took it twice and only improved one point.

recommended course would be testmasters not princeton review or kaplan.

emorystud2010 wrote:Thanks for all the responses everyone. I know that maybe i was stretching a bit with the places i was applying, but i thought softs and an economic urm would make a difference. my question then is: would it be worth it to take a year off to restudy for the lsat (i already did a princeton review class) to get into a better place, or should i just go with wherever i get in and hope that working hard works?

Like I said, it depends on what you want. Sounds to me like you want to go to a "prestigious" school compared to where you have bn admitted. If this is the case you need to score at least a 166 to be competitive.

Taking a year off after leaving undergrad I believe is a great idea. Make a lil money, sober up to the realities of the real world and then put your best foot forward. Too many wide eyed undergrads (22) jump straight to law school think they can coast through like they did in undergrad and make 150,000 a year because they have a JD. JMHO.

gator08 wrote:

emorystud2010 wrote:Thanks for all the responses everyone. I know that maybe i was stretching a bit with the places i was applying, but i thought softs and an economic urm would make a difference. my question then is: would it be worth it to take a year off to restudy for the lsat (i already did a princeton review class) to get into a better place, or should i just go with wherever i get in and hope that working hard works?

Like I said, it depends on what you want. Sounds to me like you want to go to a "prestigious" school compared to where you have bn admitted. If this is the case you need to score at least a 166 to be competitive.

Taking a year off after leaving undergrad I believe is a great idea. Make a lil money, sober up to the realities of the real world and then put your best foot forward. Too many wide eyed undergrads (22) jump straight to law school think they can coast through like they did in undergrad and make 150,000 a year because they have a JD. JMHO.

if OP is "economic URM" I think he/she knows the realities of the real world. Just saying. Plus, if you take a break, motivation is going to be an issue. Trust me.

according to LSN w/ a 3.6 162 you should not be surprised to be WL at UGA/UC Hastings/GMU

Your numbers are in the predominantly WL zone for those schools

PS there is no such thing as economic URM, overcoming adversity/economic issues is not a big deal (to adcoms) unless it makes the news or something.

nooyyllib wrote:

gator08 wrote:

emorystud2010 wrote:Thanks for all the responses everyone. I know that maybe i was stretching a bit with the places i was applying, but i thought softs and an economic urm would make a difference. my question then is: would it be worth it to take a year off to restudy for the lsat (i already did a princeton review class) to get into a better place, or should i just go with wherever i get in and hope that working hard works?

Like I said, it depends on what you want. Sounds to me like you want to go to a "prestigious" school compared to where you have bn admitted. If this is the case you need to score at least a 166 to be competitive.

Taking a year off after leaving undergrad I believe is a great idea. Make a lil money, sober up to the realities of the real world and then put your best foot forward. Too many wide eyed undergrads (22) jump straight to law school think they can coast through like they did in undergrad and make 150,000 a year because they have a JD. JMHO.

if OP is "economic URM" I think he/she knows the realities of the real world. Just saying. Plus, if you take a break, motivation is going to be an issue. Trust me.

I don't know their background and just because someone is an UMR doesn't imply they have had a hard life up to this point.

By the time classes begin I will have taken a year and a half off and it was one of the best decesions I have made. Motivation depends on the person, I can't wait to get back.

I'm gonna go ahead and put this out there. It's my opinion, so take it FWIW.

Taking one year off is strange. It's not enough to amount to substantive work experience. So if you are going to take time off, I would say stay out of school for a while. Pursue something. Start a career. it will give you a much better idea of if law is what you want to do and will give you better context for how law will fit into your life. But this is someone that is 5 years out of college.

If you are going to take a year off JUST to study the LSAT, that begs the question, "what else are you doing with that year?" Studying for the LSAT is not a full time job. Many of us know this because we studied for it while working our full time jobs, or even students who studied while being full time students.

If you're just taking 1 year off you need to do something during that year to improve your application outside of LSAT increase. Otherwise it really just looks like you're bummin'.

If you want to take a year of, do it. But know that it's not a given that you will raise your score, it may even be a bad test day and it may drop. A 162 is not terrible (mid 80%tile?).

I think Pepperdine seems to have pretty good job prospects and has obvious access to the LA market.

For me, I think I could do better on the LSATs, but I don't know 100% that I will. I've been out of school for 2 years now and I just need to get back in. The reward versus risk/discomfort of staying out just isn't worth it for me. I've gotten into, and will get into more, schools that I'd be happy enough attending.

I don't have biglaw dreams, but I do hope to do reasonably well. Law school is not promise of money or prestige for me, but I believe it is the best career for me. I'm going to study my butt off in school, I'll get involved in any extracurricular I can, hold any leadership position I can, and forge any relationships I can. I know everyone else will be doing the same, and I don't expect to be the top 1%.

I'll do my best, and I know I'll make something of it and be happy. I think this sentiment is missing in a lot of TLS'ers looking for the ticket to a promise of wealth and prestige, or it's at least a sentiment that is not readily expressed.

Great Satchmo wrote:If you want to take a year of, do it. But know that it's not a given that you will raise your score, it may even be a bad test day and it may drop. A 162 is not terrible (mid 80%tile?).

I think Pepperdine seems to have pretty good job prospects and has obvious access to the LA market.

For me, I think I could do better on the LSATs, but I don't know 100% that I will. I've been out of school for 2 years now and I just need to get back in. The reward versus risk/discomfort of staying out just isn't worth it for me. I've gotten into, and will get into more, schools that I'd be happy enough attending.

I don't have biglaw dreams, but I do hope to do reasonably well. Law school is not promise of money or prestige for me, but I believe it is the best career for me. I'm going to study my butt off in school, I'll get involved in any extracurricular I can, hold any leadership position I can, and forge any relationships I can. I know everyone else will be doing the same, and I don't expect to be the top 1%.

I'll do my best, and I know I'll make something of it and be happy. I think this sentiment is missing in a lot of TLS'ers looking for the ticket to a promise of wealth and prestige, or it's at least a sentiment that is not readily expressed.

+1

I am taking my year off right now, I had no clue what i wanted to do when I graduated. I studied for the September LSAT over the summer and chilled in my college town...rocked it. Got into a T-10, and ive been working shit jobs to pay for all the partying ive been doing. That way, come september, ill be partied out...hopefully. If you can do better, retake the LSAT. and apply in september or october. Schools wont care if you are "bumming." Enjoy life for a year.

jnorsky wrote:I am taking my year off right now, I had no clue what i wanted to do when I graduated. I studied for the September LSAT over the summer and chilled in my college town...rocked it. Got into a T-10, and ive been working shit jobs to pay for all the partying ive been doing. That way, come september, ill be partied out...hopefully. If you can do better, retake the LSAT. and apply in september or october. Schools wont care if you are "bumming." Enjoy life for a year.

Did you work while you studied over the summer for the September LSAT? What jobs are you working to make ends meet? Any other support, in any form (cell phone bills, car payment, insurance, etc)?

I'm not looking down on any of that, you got into a T-10 (btw, thanks for not just saying T-14...since we all must know that it's not Georgetown or some other reprehensible JD mill - sorry, just the anti-TLS-elitism coming out a bit) and I'm nowhere close to being competitive at a T-10 unless I took some drastic studying measures for the LSAT and waited a year.

The reality is that not all of us are in a position to study for the summer and work joke-jobs and still make ends meet. Right out of college, had I known this is the direction I'd have gone, I probably could have done what you're doing....but I was looking at PhD's and I pursued research jobs. Now I'm financially on my own two feet and I don't have that luxury short of quitting a job, moving across the state, and moving in with my parents...or to somewhere in the middle of nowhere where I can work at a restaurant part time and still afford to live.

It's just not a reality for everyone.

Borhas wrote:according to LSN w/ a 3.6 162 you should not be surprised to be WL at UGA/UC Hastings/GMU

Your numbers are in the predominantly WL zone for those schools

PS there is no such thing as economic URM, overcoming adversity/economic issues is not a big deal (to adcoms) unless it makes the news or something.

I beg to differ, I got Wait listed at schools I had no shot in hell at, and my "overcoming adversity achievement" didn't make the news.

Taking a gap year is very common and many students at the top LACS and Ivies do it. The law schools don't look down on this practice.