Arizona 2010? Forum

[cLams]

So, who else was at ASD? What did you all think?

I'll write something up later. Heading out in search of food / beer.

I was there! I was honestly really impressed. I was having my reservations because I received a scholarship offer from another school last night, but after today, I was sold. What did you think?

[Charles Barkley]

So, who else was at ASD? What did you all think?

I'll write something up later. Heading out in search of food / beer.

I'm interested to hear what you thought.

[Charles Barkley]

Oh, and you too Clams.

[missinglink]

Just got back from Athens on 4th Street. I wouldn't recommend it, honestly. Now, Cafe Poca Cosa was absolutely delicious. I'd highly recommend stopping by if you're ever in Tucson. Great concept, excellent execution in the kitchen.

Anyways, on to impressions from the ASD. Most likely tl;dr for most people, but here goes.

Overall, I got a very good impression from the school. I thought the Dean gave a pretty high energy 'pitch' for the program. I also liked his humor, but that might have been just me. I liked his honesty, especially when he conceded that law school is about fit and that UA may or may not be the right fit for you. But only you can decide whether it is right or not.

I also liked his passion for the program. It gives me confidence that the administrators put that kind of energy into the law school.

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The presentation of the Writing Program also left me with a good opinion of the program. It really seems that with the decision to offer legal writing both semesters, and to have it taught in conjunction with practitioners, they are working hard to have graduates more 'practice ready'. The emphasis placed on legal writing seems to be high at UA. One of the 2Ls I talked to said that the new emphasis in the legal writing program should allow students to have better writing samples ready for prospective employers.

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The Clinical Program Presentation didn't leave as good of an impression on me. I think there are a number of good clinical offering available, but the only thing I got from the presentation was that they seem to have strong clinical offerings in fields I'm not particularly interested.

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The Career and Professional Development Panel came just in time, I think. It's all well and good to talk about the academics, but at the end of the day, it is a professional degree program, and we are all looking for jobs. It's probably not a representative sample of the student body, as each of the panelists seemed to have been very successful. But, I think it did drive home the point that you can still do good things with a UA law degree.

Several of the panelists mentioned that you can be geographically mobile, to a degree. One, if I remember correctly, clerked in Philadelphia at a federal appeals court, and another was working at Kirkland and Ellis in L.A. It's more of a stretch to leave Arizona, but the impression I got that it is far from impossible.

I thought the exchange about ASU vs UA was pretty funny. UA seemed pretty confident about their status vis-a-vis ASU. I think it's telling that they didn't seem to go through as much trouble to try to explain why they are better than ASU, whereas ASU seemed to go through a lot of trouble during their presentation to explain why they are better situated than UA. Put plainly, for the people at UA, it's self-evident that they are better than ASU.

How much that is true, I don't know. For my career objectives, however, proximity to Phoenix during the school years isn't important, and I can move there if needs be during the summer.

One questioner brought things back to reality near the end of the panel discussion by moving the talk towards the difficult economic climate. To their credit, the Careers Services Office was frank in their description of the current climate for students. No joke, it's bad.

It was nice to hear, though, that while the economy is difficult, some 95% or so of the current class has summer work lined up. A lot of that is unpaid, as they conceded. But, it still means that students are getting skill development during the summer. The hope, as they said, is that the market will improve by the time we graduate in 2013. I talked with a 2L for a bit, and he confirmed that hardly any students got anything through OCI. From what I can gather, to get work at this school requires a lot of work by the student. So, prepare to network and pound pavement, as firms aren't lining up.

Overall, I wish we could have heard more from the panelists. I didn't think they had enough of an opportunity to share their experiences with us, and they all seemed to have fascinating careers paths.

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The Student Panel was alright. They seemed to work to have a cross-section of students with varying backgrounds. Again, it seemed like they picked the cream of the crop for our benefit. Which is what they should be doing, I suppose. That the 3L on the panel was working to start another Journal was good. I definitely think UA could benefit from one more publication.

Now that I think of it, I wish someone had asked what the 1Ls were doing this summer.

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The Mock Class with Prof. Miller was cool. Pretty entertaining, and he seemed very passionate about the material and the school. If that's what law school classes are like, I think I'll love it. Part of me thinks, though, that not all are that stimulating or exciting.

Library was absolutely beautiful. Definitely the highlight of the law school. It's a very well designed space, with good use of natural lighting. Nice tables, study rooms, sofas and chairs. I can see myself practically living in there - fortunately or unfortunately.

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Overall, I had a good impression of the school as well. It seems like the resources are there to help you accomplish what you want to accomplish. But, your law school experience is what you make of it. No one is going to hold your hand, or punch your ticket, as the Dean said.

Anyways, at the moment, UA is my top choice. I'm waiting on a couple WLs that are still contenders (Hastings, Wisconsin), and still waiting on one decision (Davis), but UA is high on the list. All my other options would probably cost more, so on cost alone, UA wins unless the others come through financially in a big way.

[Close Diamond]

Just got back from Athens on 4th Street…

Thanks so much for this post.

[missinglink]

In general, it seems a lot of the people I've run into in Tucson are pretty nice.

But, there is something strange about the town, or strange about me. The last several days, while walking, people in cars seem to feel the need to hurl obscenities at me. This is usually in the areas around the perimeter of the UA campus. One person did so while nearly running me over in a crosswalk on Speedway.

This has happened enough times that it is now a trend.

Half looked to be undergrads, the others just people from town. I plan to bike in whatever city I end up in, so the ratio of assholes to drivers has me worried.

[Charles Barkley]

In general, it seems a lot of the people I've run into in Tucson are pretty nice.

But, there is something strange about the town, or strange about me. The last several days, while walking, people in cars seem to feel the need to hurl obscenities at me. This is usually in the areas around the perimeter of the UA campus. One person did so while nearly running me over in a crosswalk on Speedway.

This has happened enough times that it is now a trend.

Half looked to be undergrads, the others just people from town. I plan to bike in whatever city I end up in, so the ratio of assholes to drivers has me worried.

[Close Diamond]

In general, it seems a lot of the people I've run into in Tucson are pretty nice.

But, there is something strange about the town, or strange about me. The last several days, while walking, people in cars seem to feel the need to hurl obscenities at me. This is usually in the areas around the perimeter of the UA campus. One person did so while nearly running me over in a crosswalk on Speedway.

This has happened enough times that it is now a trend.

Half looked to be undergrads, the others just people from town. I plan to bike in whatever city I end up in, so the ratio of assholes to drivers has me worried.

This does seem odd since, as you said, people in Tucson are generally nice. I was just there this afternoon and was noticing how friendly folks are. But perhaps people are a bit rowdier near the university. Also, if you were wearing a large swastika or carrying a burning cross or anything of the like you may get a better reaction if you refrain from such things. I always forget to dress appropriately in the city. People are so sensitive these days.

[PJRooney]

I'm in at U of A with 8k /year, but I'm torn between it and Santa Clara with the same scholarship. I know tuition, C o L, and academics are all better at Arizona, but I'm really concerned with getting back to California (specifically, Southern California, where I'm from), take the BAR, and live /work there post graduation. Any body else in the same boat? What are your thoughts?

Also waiting on miracle accceptances from Hastings and Davis, and WL at Colorado and USD (wtf?)

[sundevil77]

I'm in at U of A with 8k /year, but I'm torn between it and Santa Clara with the same scholarship. I know tuition, C o L, and academics are all better at Arizona, but I'm really concerned with getting back to California (specifically, Southern California, where I'm from), take the BAR, and live /work there post graduation. Any body else in the same boat? What are your thoughts?

Also waiting on miracle accceptances from Hastings and Davis, and WL at Colorado and USD (wtf?)

UA says that 1/3 of graduates end up leaving Arizona. I would guess that most of those go to California. At least a couple of the alums and current students at ASD have or will have jobs in LA.

[cLams]

Is anyone else who is making the UA/ASU decision depressed about the U.S. news leak? ASU jumped 18 spots?!?!? What the hell? I know the rankings shouldn't matter, but I can't help but feel bummed out. I wasn't looking twice at ASU, but I can't help but glance now. Will someone please talk some sense into me and remind me that the dumb ranking doesn't matter much.

[Burgstaller04]

the dumb ranking doesn't matter much. they are virtually the same. it's all personal preference now. phoenix vs tempe, feeling at asd, etc.

[Close Diamond]

the dumb ranking doesn't matter much. they are virtually the same. it's all personal preference now. phoenix vs [strike]tempe[/strike] tucson, feeling at asd, etc.

Fixed that for you?

The rankings do emphasize the point that the two schools are very similar in many ways.

[sundevil77]

Let's be honest, even if those fake rankings are real, the difference between the two schools was always negligible. UA still sports a slightly better reputation, but it looks they suffered with the unemployment numbers. I would hypothesize that part of that is due to the fact that a decent chunk of UA grads looking to leave the state may have found it harder to do so. We also know that number can be manipulated rather easily. For example, I know an ASU c/o 2009 that has part-time employment, but has struggled to find full-time work. Correct me if I'm wrong but USNWR would mark him as employed.

Edit: On the new rankings it looks like ASU posts a 91% employment rate at graduation while UA posts only 77%. I can't believe such a great disparity exists between two schools that are so similar. Maybe ASU convinced the students that were SoL to jump into the food services industry a bit faster?

[AsexualChocolate]

I get the sense that the rankings are the lifeblood of much of this forum, but that it is considered uncooth to express interest or consideration for said rankings. Kind of like in HS when it was uncool to say you liked school when in fact you maybe did...

For the record, I personally believe Rogers is a superior institution, and the rankings swap will be shortlived, but...

Out of curiosity, was anyone out there planning on heading to Tucson but now are looking more realistically at ASU bc of the rankings? I'm concerned those in this circumstance might not voice their thoughts for fear of admonishment by the herd of anti-establishment nays... Stand tall. I'm just trying to get a sense of what people are thinking out there...

[sundevil77]

I get the sense that the rankings are the lifeblood of much of this forum, but that it is considered uncooth to express interest or consideration for said rankings. Kind of like in HS when it was uncool to say you liked school when in fact you maybe did...

For the record, I personally believe Rogers is a superior institution, and the rankings swap will be shortlived, but...

Out of curiosity, was anyone out there planning on heading to Tucson but now are looking more realistically at ASU bc of the rankings? I'm concerned those in this circumstance might not voice their thoughts for fear of admonishment by the herd of anti-establishment nays... Stand tall. I'm just trying to get a sense of what people are thinking out there...

I too think the rankings swap will be brief; however, I will admit that it did make me think twice about going to UA vs. ASU. I have the same amount of money at both schools and I like the Phoenix area better than Tucson. In the end, I really think ASU gamed the rankings a bit (employment stats + a 2 yr. endowment?) and that really was the cause for the sudden jump. Nevertheless, regardless of rankings, I felt that UA has the better reputation, and that is why I picked it over ASU.

I think you could be right, though, that some people might second guess there choice to go to UA because of the rankings jump. However, I doubt that many people put such a heavy emphasis on rankings. The biggest factors are still probably going to be $$, job prospects, location, and feel.

[Close Diamond]

I get the sense that the rankings are the lifeblood of much of this forum, but that it is considered uncooth to express interest or consideration for said rankings. Kind of like in HS when it was uncool to say you liked school when in fact you maybe did...

For the record, I personally believe Rogers is a superior institution, and the rankings swap will be shortlived, but...

Out of curiosity, was anyone out there planning on heading to Tucson but now are looking more realistically at ASU bc of the rankings? I'm concerned those in this circumstance might not voice their thoughts for fear of admonishment by the herd of anti-establishment nays... Stand tall. I'm just trying to get a sense of what people are thinking out there...

I too think the rankings swap will be brief; however, I will admit that it did make me think twice about going to UA vs. ASU. I have the same amount of money at both schools and I like the Phoenix area better than Tucson. In the end, I really think ASU gamed the rankings a bit (employment stats + a 2 yr. endowment?) and that really was the cause for the sudden jump. Nevertheless, regardless of rankings, I felt that UA has the better reputation, and that is why I picked it over ASU.

I think you could be right, though, that some people might second guess there choice to go to UA because of the rankings jump. However, I doubt that many people put such a heavy emphasis on rankings. The biggest factors are still probably going to be $$, job prospects, location, and feel.

+1

I have no allegiance to U of A, nor to ASU. Yet in my research it looks to me like U of A has the upper hand regarding job placement and clerkship opportunities. If ASU can maintain their #38 that all may change over the next decade. That's a big if.

All that being said, I think that few people make big distinctions between #35 − #55 of the USNWR rankings. And I believe that's how it should be.

[fallguy]

I get the sense that the rankings are the lifeblood of much of this forum, but that it is considered uncooth to express interest or consideration for said rankings. Kind of like in HS when it was uncool to say you liked school when in fact you maybe did...

For the record, I personally believe Rogers is a superior institution, and the rankings swap will be shortlived, but...

Out of curiosity, was anyone out there planning on heading to Tucson but now are looking more realistically at ASU bc of the rankings? I'm concerned those in this circumstance might not voice their thoughts for fear of admonishment by the herd of anti-establishment nays... Stand tall. I'm just trying to get a sense of what people are thinking out there...

I too think the rankings swap will be brief; however, I will admit that it did make me think twice about going to UA vs. ASU. I have the same amount of money at both schools and I like the Phoenix area better than Tucson. In the end, I really think ASU gamed the rankings a bit (employment stats + a 2 yr. endowment?) and that really was the cause for the sudden jump. Nevertheless, regardless of rankings, I felt that UA has the better reputation, and that is why I picked it over ASU.

I think you could be right, though, that some people might second guess there choice to go to UA because of the rankings jump. However, I doubt that many people put such a heavy emphasis on rankings. The biggest factors are still probably going to be $$, job prospects, location, and feel.

I'm not sure to what extent ASU's rise is due to gaming rankings. However, when I was there as an undergrad, they began the "ASU 101" class. This was a one credit hour course that all freshmen had to take. My understanding is that it was nothing more than an extended tour of the campus taught by professors as "volunteer" work (note that Michael Crow was either the only or one of the few university presidents who reviewed and could veto every tenure file on campus, not sure if anything has changed in the last 2 years). This class was capped at 19 students. 9000 freshman/19 students creates a lot of classes capped under 20. They jump in the US News rankings, and Michael Crow collects his bonus. The whole think smacked of mendacity to me. Then again, I'm not sure anyone can find a program with a totally honest admissions process.

[Close Diamond]

[Crickets]

I'm curious to know people's reasons for and against attending Rogers with regards to academics, employment, chile rellenos, etc.

[Burgstaller04]

[Crickets]

I'm curious to know people's reasons for and against attending Rogers with regards to academics, employment, chile rellenos, etc.

I won't be applying til the fall, but I do have a couple reasons to prefer U of A over other choices. My fiance is from Phoenix. From her advice, U of A people tend to only wanna hire other alumni even in the Phoenix area which is why Wildcats have as good of a shot as Sun Devils there. Based on her experience, they are very well looked upon by the city as a whole and given that she is from a fairly well connected family, I believe she has a good feel for things. (insert "of course you believe your fiancee is the best" jokes here). I haven't visited either of the AZ law schools yet, but I am excited to see both and try to figure out which feels best for me!

[AsexualChocolate]

Did anyone attend the admitted students reception in Phoenix this last week?

[primusux]

Withdrew with large scholarship.

[sundevil77]

For any of you interested, I started a thread to discuss housing in the Tucson area. http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 4&t=118737

[trkmantis2]

I just wanted to add that ultimately I choose UA over ASU because according to my research it's a stronger program with more national portability and gives you a better shot at Big Law. Also, UA just added a new Business Law program which suits my interests.

If you do still worry over the recent US News rankings then you must also take the NLJ's Go-To List in account as well.

http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

UA ranks 45 with 15.1% NLJ 250 hires. ASU is not on the list, nor has it ever been. To me this means that even though markets change, UA likely still has better placement then ASU in Big Law jobs.

[sundevil77]

Are there any current or former UA students browsing through this thread? If so, would you be willing to answer some questions, either in the thread, or through PMing?