Harvard 2010! Forum

[Lmao Zedong]

I don't think this is really true. If they want you, they'll take the higher score. I know at least one person at HLS who would not have gotten in if they had averaged.

yeah, at least from what i've seen there is far more evidence this cycle to suggest the higher score is considered more strongly than the average

[nattybro]

it does look like Harvard averages LSAT then. 177/3.89 should be good to go numbers wise

I don't think this is really true. If they want you, they'll take the higher score.

That reasoning sounds kind of circular. Isn't your LSAT score a pretty major determinant of whether they want you?

Personally I'm hoping they take the higher score, and there's been some evidence in this thread that that is the case. Somebody a few (dozen?) pages back had three scores: 161, 164, and 171. They were held, but not before getting a JR1. I don't think they would have made it that far if the scores were averaged.

edit: fixed formatting

[PapantlaFlyer]

I have a theory. I think the fact that this is turning out to be such a competitive cycle is actually a GOOD think for below 25th LSATs. Since there seems to be such a high number of 170+ applicants this cycle, I have no doubt HLS, and all LS, are going to raise there medians. Since they already have so many high LSATs in their class, they can afford to add a few more <25% LSATs!!!

yeah i know...

[luckyjd]

I have a theory. I think the fact that this is turning out to be such a competitive cycle is actually a GOOD think for below 25th LSATs. Since there seems to be such a high number of 170+ applicants this cycle, I have no doubt HLS, and all LS, are going to raise there medians. Since they already have so many high LSATs in their class, they can afford to add a few more <25% LSATs!!!

yeah i know...

wishful thinking indeed... sigh

[Kronk]

it does look like Harvard averages LSAT then. 177/3.89 should be good to go numbers wise

I don't think this is really true. If they want you, they'll take the higher score.

That reasoning sounds kind of circular. Isn't your LSAT score a pretty major determinant of whether they want you?

Personally I'm hoping they take the higher score, and there's been some evidence in this thread that that is the case. Somebody a few (dozen?) pages back had three scores: 161, 164, and 171. They were held, but not before getting a JR1. I don't think they would have made it that far if the scores were averaged.

edit: fixed formatting

Looks like you all agree, then.

[lightbulb1986]

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[nattybro]

Agree with the conclusion but not the justification

[lightbulb1986]

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[Kronk]

Agree with the conclusion but not the justification

Well you're under the assumption that the main thing Harvard "wants" is a high LSAT score. I think me and the other poster would argue that what Harvard "wants" is a really experienced, qualified applicant in life experience that happens to have a good GPA and LSAT score. IMO, Harvard probably has to turn down a bunch of 167 / 4.0 people that have amazing life experiences and great diversity. They probably wish that they could give him / her a chance at HLS, but clearly can't based on statistics. Now, if that person had like a 162 / 172, Harvard would probably look at the 172 because they "want" him. However, if they get the same applicant without anything interesting in his file to make Harvard interested, he's probably looking at a WL.

[Dignan]

I don't think this is really true. If they want you, they'll take the higher score. I know at least one person at HLS who would not have gotten in if they had averaged.

I've never really understood the debates about whether schools "average" LSAT scores. For those who took the LSAT multiple times, the average appears on the applicant's LSAC report. All schools see the average, and so all schools use it in that limited sense. The question is how much weight a school puts on the average score. As with all soft factors--and the average LSAT score is basically a soft factor--the answer is going to to depend on the biases of the adcomm who reads the application. At Harvard (and probably at Yale and Stanford as well), a low first (or second) LSAT score is definitely going to count against you, like any negative soft would.

[lightbulb1986]

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[scribelaw]

Agree with the conclusion but not the justification

Well you're under the assumption that the main thing Harvard "wants" is a high LSAT score. I think me and the other poster would argue that what Harvard "wants" is a really experienced, qualified applicant in life experience that happens to have a good GPA and LSAT score. IMO, Harvard probably has to turn down a bunch of 167 / 4.0 people that have amazing life experiences and great diversity. They probably wish that they could give him / her a chance at HLS, but clearly can't based on statistics. Now, if that person had like a 162 / 172, Harvard would probably look at the 172 because they "want" him. However, if they get the same applicant without anything interesting in his file to make Harvard interested, he's probably looking at a WL.

This.

[lightbulb1986]

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[scribelaw]

I don't think this is really true. If they want you, they'll take the higher score. I know at least one person at HLS who would not have gotten in if they had averaged.

I've never really understood the debates about whether schools "average" LSAT scores. For those who took the LSAT multiple times, the average appears on the applicant's LSAC report. All schools see the average, and so all schools use it in that limited sense. The question is how much weight a school puts on the average score. As with all soft factors--and the average LSAT score is basically a soft factor--the answer is going to to depend on the biases of the adcomm who reads the application. At Harvard (and probably at Yale and Stanford as well), a low first (or second) LSAT score is definitely going to count against you, like any negative soft would.

I don't think this is really true. Some schools ignore the lower score completely and take the highest. If you have a good addendum, this is probably even more true.

Like with anything else, though, the question is one of degree. Even if a school looks at your average score, do they care enough to waitlist an otherwise qualified applicant? My guess is, at uber elite schools like Harvard, the answer depends on how much they like you otherwise...

[Kronk]

Crackberry has an average LSAT of like 165 and got a JR1, into Stanford, etc.

[Nom Sawyer]

I don't think this is really true. If they want you, they'll take the higher score. I know at least one person at HLS who would not have gotten in if they had averaged.

I've never really understood the debates about whether schools "average" LSAT scores. For those who took the LSAT multiple times, the average appears on the applicant's LSAC report. All schools see the average, and so all schools use it in that limited sense. The question is how much weight a school puts on the average score. As with all soft factors--and the average LSAT score is basically a soft factor--the answer is going to to depend on the biases of the adcomm who reads the application. At Harvard (and probably at Yale and Stanford as well), a low first (or second) LSAT score is definitely going to count against you, like any negative soft would.

I don't think this is really true. Some schools ignore the lower score completely and take the highest. If you have a good addendum, this is probably even more true.

Like with anything else, though, the question is one of degree. Even if a school looks at your average score, do they care enough to waitlist an otherwise qualified applicant? My guess is, at uber elite schools like Harvard, the answer depends on how much they like you otherwise...

This is mostly true for all schools outside of the T3 to T6... HYS don't have to go by USNWR too much because they are not shifting in their rankings.. Thus these three schools consider all your LSAT scores instead of taking just the highest (which is what almost all the rest of T14 do now). However, they still put more weight on your highest score as can be seen in many anecdotal cases.

Do you guys think geography would play a role? Like maybe growing up in Appalachia or someplace thats not the northeast or california would help? They don´t seem to have many matrics from the south for instance...

Geography will play a slight role. I think Anne Ivey talked about it a bit in her book... basically it can act as another soft giving you a small boost if you come from some more remote area that typically has fewer HLS students admitted each year.

[Kronk]

Do you guys think geography would play a role? Like maybe growing up in Appalachia or someplace thats not the northeast or california would help? They don´t seem to have many matrics from the south for instance...

Geography will play a slight role. I think Anne Ivey talked about it a bit in her book... basically it can act as another soft giving you a small boost if you come from some more remote area that typically has fewer HLS students admitted each year.

I think that this probably doesn't effect HLS that much. Every LS wants to be able to say that they have a student "from 46 states" or something of that nature, but with a class of 550, that pretty much takes care of itself. At a smaller school like Chicago, Stanford, Yale, or Penn it might have a larger effect.

[Nom Sawyer]

Do you guys think geography would play a role? Like maybe growing up in Appalachia or someplace thats not the northeast or california would help? They don´t seem to have many matrics from the south for instance...

Geography will play a slight role. I think Anne Ivey talked about it a bit in her book... basically it can act as another soft giving you a small boost if you come from some more remote area that typically has fewer HLS students admitted each year.

I think that this probably doesn't effect HLS that much. Every LS wants to be able to say that they have a student "from 46 states" or something of that nature, but with a class of 550, that pretty much takes care of itself. At a smaller school like Chicago, Stanford, Yale, or Penn it might have a larger effect.

yeah i agree with this... thats why my emphasis is on slight. As with all other small softs, there isn't much of an effect. Probably the only noticeable boost you'll get is if your from states like Mississippi or Alaska.

[nattybro]

Agree with the conclusion but not the justification

Well you're under the assumption that the main thing Harvard "wants" is a high LSAT score. I think me and the other poster would argue that what Harvard "wants" is a really experienced, qualified applicant in life experience that happens to have a good GPA and LSAT score. IMO, Harvard probably has to turn down a bunch of 167 / 4.0 people that have amazing life experiences and great diversity. They probably wish that they could give him / her a chance at HLS, but clearly can't based on statistics. Now, if that person had like a 162 / 172, Harvard would probably look at the 172 because they "want" him. However, if they get the same applicant without anything interesting in his file to make Harvard interested, he's probably looking at a WL.

I think we're mostly in agreement. For both applicants they see both LSAT scores, and for both they balance those scores against soft factors, GPA, etc. What I'm saying is: yes, the 162/172 with softs will get in over the 162/172 without softs - but simply because he is a better candidate, not because his scores were weighted differently than the other guy. I just doubt that the averaging policy varies on a case-by-case basis, as in "we like this candidate so we'll take the higher LSAT, but we don't like this one as much so we'll average his." If you are going to treat the test as a quantitative measure of ability, as the schools obviously do, then it is only reasonable to choose one policy and apply it across the board (with the exception of a legit addendum). Otherwise you are introducing a whole lot of subjectivity into what should be the most objective part of the applicant's package.

[crackberry]

Based on my cycle, I am convinced that no school averages LSAT scores. That said, even my high score is below Harvard's 25th so who knows.

[Hattori Hanzo]

So did anyone get a hold email this week?

[crackberry]

So did anyone get a hold email this week?

Yes. Holds have gone out this week. Check the "JR1 but no JR2" and "Held by Harvard" threads.

[clyde_barrow]

jr1 scheduled for next wed.. can't wait to chat it up w/ josh

[Zara]

jr1 scheduled for next wed.. can't wait to chat it up w/ josh

good luck! mine's scheduled for tuesday. anyone have any advice for us?

[cardinal08]

also got JR1 email today. very exciting