Military Law

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Patrick Bateman

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Re: Military Law

Post by Patrick Bateman » Tue May 19, 2020 3:52 pm

howell wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 3:42 pm
15atay wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 11:57 am
1) I want to be a public defender and thus I want to work in military justice. In all the promo videos of all the branches they show JAGs in the courtroom but which branch am I most likely to be assigned there? I know the needs of the force always come first. I'm ok also serving as a prosecutor if I am also able to be a defender in those 4 years.
I'm not as familiar with your odds in the Navy, but of the rest of the services, I would go with the Air Force. The Army rotates you through a different section in each of your first 4 years, so you might be doing only legal assistance for your first year. Then maybe admin law for another year. Then maybe the courtroom. I hope we have people to correct me if I am wrong, but there is not much certainty that you will see a lot of courtroom action as a Marine or Coast Guard JAG. It can certainly happen, though.

In the Air Force, you will be a prosecutor your first 2 years. You will juggle other duties at the same time, but you will be in the courtroom. Currently, many have the option to switch to defense in their second assignment (each assignment being 2 years). I've known only a few people who couldn't make the switch to defense if they really pursued it. Just make it known from the time they are finding your first assignment that you're interested in military justice. And don't be a terrible person. There are no guarantees, but I think your odds are very good of either switching to defense for your second assignment or, at the very least, switching to a larger base and getting even more courtroom experience as a prosecutor.

You might do your 4 and bounce, but you also might find that there is a lot of great defense work to do in the military.
2) I found my 3 years in the Army NG so boring and frustrating. For reference, I was a 42A and graduated as the distinguished honor grad without almost any effort, I feel like I read a book a day waiting on everyone else. And at my unit, they didn't even have enough computers for us to attempt to do our job so I just sat around doing homework or trying to look busy. Were these all functions of being enlisted/in the national guard. Or is it more of the same?
I was active duty Air Force and switched to the Air National Guard. The problems you describe sound more like the challenges I have faced in the Guard. Active Duty JAG life in the Air Force will not be like that. Sure, when you first get to a base, there might be a slow week or two, but you will be very well utilized your first few years.
Howell is on the money as usual. I also agree that the Air Force will give you the best shot at court-martial litigation from day one. Read through this thread and you will see this discussed previously, as well as the fact that some bases tend to have a higher litigation volume than others.

The first defense job you are eligible for is basically the sole federal defender for a base, though you will be part of a ~4 base region in which you will also be representing folks. This is the Area Defense Counsel (ADC). Following a tour as an ADC, you can continue on in the defense world as a Circuit Defense Counsel (CDC) (litigating and now supervising ~4 ADC offices) or at the Appellate Defense Shop at JB Andrews. Down the road as a Lt Col, you can be a Chief CDC, running an entire AOR (Western/Pacific, Central, Eastern/Europe) and assisting in the most sensitive/high profile cases.

Good luck.

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Re: Military Law

Post by Anonymous User » Tue May 19, 2020 4:39 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 3:52 pm
howell wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 3:42 pm
15atay wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 11:57 am
1) I want to be a public defender and thus I want to work in military justice. In all the promo videos of all the branches they show JAGs in the courtroom but which branch am I most likely to be assigned there? I know the needs of the force always come first. I'm ok also serving as a prosecutor if I am also able to be a defender in those 4 years.
I'm not as familiar with your odds in the Navy, but of the rest of the services, I would go with the Air Force. The Army rotates you through a different section in each of your first 4 years, so you might be doing only legal assistance for your first year. Then maybe admin law for another year. Then maybe the courtroom. I hope we have people to correct me if I am wrong, but there is not much certainty that you will see a lot of courtroom action as a Marine or Coast Guard JAG. It can certainly happen, though.

In the Air Force, you will be a prosecutor your first 2 years. You will juggle other duties at the same time, but you will be in the courtroom. Currently, many have the option to switch to defense in their second assignment (each assignment being 2 years). I've known only a few people who couldn't make the switch to defense if they really pursued it. Just make it known from the time they are finding your first assignment that you're interested in military justice. And don't be a terrible person. There are no guarantees, but I think your odds are very good of either switching to defense for your second assignment or, at the very least, switching to a larger base and getting even more courtroom experience as a prosecutor.

You might do your 4 and bounce, but you also might find that there is a lot of great defense work to do in the military.
2) I found my 3 years in the Army NG so boring and frustrating. For reference, I was a 42A and graduated as the distinguished honor grad without almost any effort, I feel like I read a book a day waiting on everyone else. And at my unit, they didn't even have enough computers for us to attempt to do our job so I just sat around doing homework or trying to look busy. Were these all functions of being enlisted/in the national guard. Or is it more of the same?
I was active duty Air Force and switched to the Air National Guard. The problems you describe sound more like the challenges I have faced in the Guard. Active Duty JAG life in the Air Force will not be like that. Sure, when you first get to a base, there might be a slow week or two, but you will be very well utilized your first few years.
Howell is on the money as usual. I also agree that the Air Force will give you the best shot at court-martial litigation from day one. Read through this thread and you will see this discussed previously, as well as the fact that some bases tend to have a higher litigation volume than others.

The first defense job you are eligible for is basically the sole federal defender for a base, though you will be part of a ~4 base region in which you will also be representing folks. This is the Area Defense Counsel (ADC). Following a tour as an ADC, you can continue on in the defense world as a Circuit Defense Counsel (CDC) (litigating and now supervising ~4 ADC offices) or at the Appellate Defense Shop at JB Andrews. Down the road as a Lt Col, you can be a Chief CDC, running an entire AOR (Western/Pacific, Central, Eastern/Europe) and assisting in the most sensitive/high profile cases.

Good luck.
Thank you both! I'm sure it will be competitive so fingers crossed :)

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Re: Military Law

Post by Anonymous User » Wed May 20, 2020 10:46 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 4:39 pm
Patrick Bateman wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 3:52 pm
howell wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 3:42 pm
15atay wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 11:57 am
1) I want to be a public defender and thus I want to work in military justice. In all the promo videos of all the branches they show JAGs in the courtroom but which branch am I most likely to be assigned there? I know the needs of the force always come first. I'm ok also serving as a prosecutor if I am also able to be a defender in those 4 years.
I'm not as familiar with your odds in the Navy, but of the rest of the services, I would go with the Air Force. The Army rotates you through a different section in each of your first 4 years, so you might be doing only legal assistance for your first year. Then maybe admin law for another year. Then maybe the courtroom. I hope we have people to correct me if I am wrong, but there is not much certainty that you will see a lot of courtroom action as a Marine or Coast Guard JAG. It can certainly happen, though.

In the Air Force, you will be a prosecutor your first 2 years. You will juggle other duties at the same time, but you will be in the courtroom. Currently, many have the option to switch to defense in their second assignment (each assignment being 2 years). I've known only a few people who couldn't make the switch to defense if they really pursued it. Just make it known from the time they are finding your first assignment that you're interested in military justice. And don't be a terrible person. There are no guarantees, but I think your odds are very good of either switching to defense for your second assignment or, at the very least, switching to a larger base and getting even more courtroom experience as a prosecutor.

You might do your 4 and bounce, but you also might find that there is a lot of great defense work to do in the military.
2) I found my 3 years in the Army NG so boring and frustrating. For reference, I was a 42A and graduated as the distinguished honor grad without almost any effort, I feel like I read a book a day waiting on everyone else. And at my unit, they didn't even have enough computers for us to attempt to do our job so I just sat around doing homework or trying to look busy. Were these all functions of being enlisted/in the national guard. Or is it more of the same?
I was active duty Air Force and switched to the Air National Guard. The problems you describe sound more like the challenges I have faced in the Guard. Active Duty JAG life in the Air Force will not be like that. Sure, when you first get to a base, there might be a slow week or two, but you will be very well utilized your first few years.
Howell is on the money as usual. I also agree that the Air Force will give you the best shot at court-martial litigation from day one. Read through this thread and you will see this discussed previously, as well as the fact that some bases tend to have a higher litigation volume than others.

The first defense job you are eligible for is basically the sole federal defender for a base, though you will be part of a ~4 base region in which you will also be representing folks. This is the Area Defense Counsel (ADC). Following a tour as an ADC, you can continue on in the defense world as a Circuit Defense Counsel (CDC) (litigating and now supervising ~4 ADC offices) or at the Appellate Defense Shop at JB Andrews. Down the road as a Lt Col, you can be a Chief CDC, running an entire AOR (Western/Pacific, Central, Eastern/Europe) and assisting in the most sensitive/high profile cases.

Good luck.
Thank you both! I'm sure it will be competitive so fingers crossed :)
Army is getting a lot better with placing you in a role you like at your first duty station. If you are good at the job, the SJA will even place you in the same position, or try to find you a job you would like on the second duty station. Army in general is getting really good. For example, my OBC class almost all got the jobs they wanted (except a few that wanted national security or op law). The duty stations - not necessarily. You are placed based on the needs of the army, but a few were lucky and got their first choice.

As far as trial experience, Army is expanding on TDS - a lot of us were assigned to TDS right out the gate. A lot of us in TC or MJA , surprisingly not so many admin or legal assistance.

As far as NG / Reserves, I was enlisted reserves for 4 years before coming onto active duty JAG and it sounds like NG / Reserves problem. You know the deal - inventory, inventory, PMCS, inventory... regardless of your mos. Active duty will be different - especially for JAGs. I also heard that NG / Reserve JAG also have a lot of positions in TDS in LODs. Reserves / NG JAs will actually get to do their jobs - which would be different from other branches.

- this is only for the Army though, I have no idea how AF, NAVY, or Coast Guard works. Good luck!

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Re: Military Law

Post by Anonymous User » Thu May 21, 2020 7:42 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 10:46 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 4:39 pm
Patrick Bateman wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 3:52 pm
howell wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 3:42 pm
15atay wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 11:57 am
1) I want to be a public defender and thus I want to work in military justice. In all the promo videos of all the branches they show JAGs in the courtroom but which branch am I most likely to be assigned there? I know the needs of the force always come first. I'm ok also serving as a prosecutor if I am also able to be a defender in those 4 years.
I'm not as familiar with your odds in the Navy, but of the rest of the services, I would go with the Air Force. The Army rotates you through a different section in each of your first 4 years, so you might be doing only legal assistance for your first year. Then maybe admin law for another year. Then maybe the courtroom. I hope we have people to correct me if I am wrong, but there is not much certainty that you will see a lot of courtroom action as a Marine or Coast Guard JAG. It can certainly happen, though.

In the Air Force, you will be a prosecutor your first 2 years. You will juggle other duties at the same time, but you will be in the courtroom. Currently, many have the option to switch to defense in their second assignment (each assignment being 2 years). I've known only a few people who couldn't make the switch to defense if they really pursued it. Just make it known from the time they are finding your first assignment that you're interested in military justice. And don't be a terrible person. There are no guarantees, but I think your odds are very good of either switching to defense for your second assignment or, at the very least, switching to a larger base and getting even more courtroom experience as a prosecutor.

You might do your 4 and bounce, but you also might find that there is a lot of great defense work to do in the military.
2) I found my 3 years in the Army NG so boring and frustrating. For reference, I was a 42A and graduated as the distinguished honor grad without almost any effort, I feel like I read a book a day waiting on everyone else. And at my unit, they didn't even have enough computers for us to attempt to do our job so I just sat around doing homework or trying to look busy. Were these all functions of being enlisted/in the national guard. Or is it more of the same?
I was active duty Air Force and switched to the Air National Guard. The problems you describe sound more like the challenges I have faced in the Guard. Active Duty JAG life in the Air Force will not be like that. Sure, when you first get to a base, there might be a slow week or two, but you will be very well utilized your first few years.
Howell is on the money as usual. I also agree that the Air Force will give you the best shot at court-martial litigation from day one. Read through this thread and you will see this discussed previously, as well as the fact that some bases tend to have a higher litigation volume than others.

The first defense job you are eligible for is basically the sole federal defender for a base, though you will be part of a ~4 base region in which you will also be representing folks. This is the Area Defense Counsel (ADC). Following a tour as an ADC, you can continue on in the defense world as a Circuit Defense Counsel (CDC) (litigating and now supervising ~4 ADC offices) or at the Appellate Defense Shop at JB Andrews. Down the road as a Lt Col, you can be a Chief CDC, running an entire AOR (Western/Pacific, Central, Eastern/Europe) and assisting in the most sensitive/high profile cases.

Good luck.
Thank you both! I'm sure it will be competitive so fingers crossed :)
Army is getting a lot better with placing you in a role you like at your first duty station. If you are good at the job, the SJA will even place you in the same position, or try to find you a job you would like on the second duty station. Army in general is getting really good. For example, my OBC class almost all got the jobs they wanted (except a few that wanted national security or op law). The duty stations - not necessarily. You are placed based on the needs of the army, but a few were lucky and got their first choice.

As far as trial experience, Army is expanding on TDS - a lot of us were assigned to TDS right out the gate. A lot of us in TC or MJA , surprisingly not so many admin or legal assistance.

As far as NG / Reserves, I was enlisted reserves for 4 years before coming onto active duty JAG and it sounds like NG / Reserves problem. You know the deal - inventory, inventory, PMCS, inventory... regardless of your mos. Active duty will be different - especially for JAGs. I also heard that NG / Reserve JAG also have a lot of positions in TDS in LODs. Reserves / NG JAs will actually get to do their jobs - which would be different from other branches.

- this is only for the Army though, I have no idea how AF, NAVY, or Coast Guard works. Good luck!
Are certain duty stations better known for particular roles? In other words, should I just pick my duty station based on where I'd like to be for the foreseeable future, or are there particular duty stations more conducive to being in certain practice areas?

...or is this all a moot point, because it seems that the first four years will just be a rotation through legal assistance, trial counsel, and admin law?

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Re: Military Law

Post by Anonymous User » Fri May 22, 2020 3:34 pm

For 212th JAOBC people, have you gotten the second email for e-QIP yet?

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Re: Military Law

Post by ceceruz » Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 3:34 pm
For 212th JAOBC people, have you gotten the second email for e-QIP yet?
If this is in regards to the background check, yes. Also, I'm looking to meet more people in the 212th class and maybe start a facebook group where we can share info, etc. I know the two classes before us did this, but they had to make the page themselves. You down?

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Re: Military Law

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:43 am

Did anyone get an assignment yet? I was hoping to hear something Friday...

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Re: Military Law

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:19 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:43 am
Did anyone get an assignment yet? I was hoping to hear something Friday...
I wouldn't be surprised if we hear back mid-July lol

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Re: Military Law

Post by ceceruz » Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:14 pm

I’ve been talking to a select in the 211, and they said some people found out as late as three days before reporting. If that’s consistent, I’m not expecting news for another month at least 🤷🏼‍♀️

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Re: Military Law

Post by 3dLawstudent » Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:50 pm

I emailed JARO last week and haven't heard back. Anyone else not hearing back?

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Patrick Bateman

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Re: Military Law

Post by Patrick Bateman » Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:14 pm

As an FYI, Air Force JAG is opening up FLEP (https://www.airforce.com/careers/specia ... y-military) to enlisted members in 2021. I'm sure JAX will have more official information out there soon enough but the basics:

-open to any AFSC
-2-6 years service a/o Fall 2021
-Meet the OTS commissioning program requirements (AFOQT, commander interview, etc.)
-Bachelor’s degree from accredited school
-Applications due 10 January 2021

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Re: Military Law

Post by howell » Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:42 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:14 pm
As an FYI, Air Force JAG is opening up FLEP (https://www.airforce.com/careers/specia ... y-military) to enlisted members in 2021. I'm sure JAX will have more official information out there soon enough but the basics:

-open to any AFSC
-2-6 years service a/o Fall 2021
-Meet the OTS commissioning program requirements (AFOQT, commander interview, etc.)
-Bachelor’s degree from accredited school
-Applications due 10 January 2021
I love this. We regularly had Airmen asking about how to become JAGs, and there was never a program offered for that transition. We might have kept some great paralegals in the JAG Corps with this.

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Re: Military Law

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:27 am

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Re: Military Law

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:18 pm

I'm looking into JAG in numerous Branches, but there is a job posting for USMC. Upon a search, I see this question was somewhat answered in 2017, but I wanted to ask. I went through undergrad, the LSAT, and started law school. Between my 2L to 3L years I was diagnosed with ADD and took generic Adderall for that. I'm now getting ready for the bar and thinking about applying, but given that I've taken the medication within the previous year I don't know if I should.

I know they generally want you to be free of the medication for a year, and to prove that you can perform without the medication. I'm thinking that my academics as well as LSAT performance could be evidence of that. But i'm not sure if they're reject me outright because of the late diagnosis.

Thank you for any advice!

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Re: Military Law

Post by kdial » Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:59 am

Just wondering if any Army selects have heard anything lately. I am currently slotted to go to training in Janurary, my bar exam has been now pushed back to October. I sent an email last week, but have not heard back.

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Re: Military Law

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:10 pm

How were you notified about your anticipated January start? Was it the initial acceptance letter?

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Re: Military Law

Post by chromefox » Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:32 pm

I was accepted in the Army December board and haven't even heard if I've cleared medical yet. I'm also taking the October bar but don't anticipate being able to attend training until May/Aug. 2021 at the earliest at this point.

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Re: Military Law

Post by mulligansoup » Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:56 pm

kdial wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:59 am
Just wondering if any Army selects have heard anything lately. I am currently slotted to go to training in Janurary, my bar exam has been now pushed back to October. I sent an email last week, but have not heard back.
Also an Oct. exam, slotted for January and haven't even cleared medical yet.

I sent an e-mail and CPT Green called a few days later -- I was told JARO is focusing on the 212th which is why they have been silent. The last section starts August 9. Once the 212th is sent to DCC, they will focus on the 213th and will be in contact throughout the whole process. If you haven't cleared medical yet either, they are also a little backed up there.

She mentioned that they might hit a situation where a lot of us passed but are not sworn in yet, so they might have to talk to their leadership to talk about that. I am just sitting here hoping that we are not pushed back to May.

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Re: Military Law

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:02 am

Anon for obvious reasons.

So, without giving away too much information, I'm a 3L at a T1 school who has been speaking to a recruiter recently about JAG. My grades are very good, my resume is solid, I'm in excellent physical shape, etc. Serving in the military has always been a dream of mine. I view this as essentially my last chance to do it.

The problem is that I've been to drug rehab and received psychological treatment (including taking an antidepressant). I've had other alcohol related legal issues as well.

The good news is that I've been sober for several years now (thanks to AA), haven't been on the antidepressant during that time, and genuinely think I've never been depressed a day in my life. The problem really was just substances. And don't get me started on the way American psychiatry convinces every person who has ever experienced a moment of unhappiness that they're depressed and should take this pill; it's bullshit on the deepest level. But I digress.

At any rate, my recruiters advice has been this: disclose the legal issues, explain that you've gotten sober and how (AA), but *do not* disclose the extent of the past drug use, your time in rehab, or that you've received psychological treatment.

My thought/question to all of you: I understand most people shade the truth at MEPS, and that in a way what he advises I disclose does tell like 90% of what matters -- I had a drinking problem, I'm sober now thanks to AA -- but these still seem like pretty big omissions. If I were to follow his advice on this, is this something that's likely to pop back up and haunt me later in my career on some more exacting background check?

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Re: Military Law

Post by ubersaurusrex » Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:38 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:02 am
Anon for obvious reasons.

So, without giving away too much information, I'm a 3L at a T1 school who has been speaking to a recruiter recently about JAG. My grades are very good, my resume is solid, I'm in excellent physical shape, etc. Serving in the military has always been a dream of mine. I view this as essentially my last chance to do it.

The problem is that I've been to drug rehab and received psychological treatment (including taking an antidepressant). I've had other alcohol related legal issues as well.

The good news is that I've been sober for several years now (thanks to AA), haven't been on the antidepressant during that time, and genuinely think I've never been depressed a day in my life. The problem really was just substances. And don't get me started on the way American psychiatry convinces every person who has ever experienced a moment of unhappiness that they're depressed and should take this pill; it's bullshit on the deepest level. But I digress.

At any rate, my recruiters advice has been this: disclose the legal issues, explain that you've gotten sober and how (AA), but *do not* disclose the extent of the past drug use, your time in rehab, or that you've received psychological treatment.

My thought/question to all of you: I understand most people shade the truth at MEPS, and that in a way what he advises I disclose does tell like 90% of what matters -- I had a drinking problem, I'm sober now thanks to AA -- but these still seem like pretty big omissions. If I were to follow his advice on this, is this something that's likely to pop back up and haunt me later in my career on some more exacting background check?
You should disclose everything relevant to the questions asked at your MEPS screening. Some of this stuff could be disqualifying, but its always going to be worse if it comes out later and they believe you were dishonest in your commissioning paperwork. Additionally, I feel like its worth mentioning that lots of people struggle with alcohol and depression in the military. The environment is often not well suited to dealing with people who have substance abuse and mental health problems and you should seriously consider whether joining is going to be good for your long term health.

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Re: Military Law

Post by Patrick Bateman » Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:02 am
Anon for obvious reasons.

So, without giving away too much information, I'm a 3L at a T1 school who has been speaking to a recruiter recently about JAG. My grades are very good, my resume is solid, I'm in excellent physical shape, etc. Serving in the military has always been a dream of mine. I view this as essentially my last chance to do it.

The problem is that I've been to drug rehab and received psychological treatment (including taking an antidepressant). I've had other alcohol related legal issues as well.

The good news is that I've been sober for several years now (thanks to AA), haven't been on the antidepressant during that time, and genuinely think I've never been depressed a day in my life. The problem really was just substances. And don't get me started on the way American psychiatry convinces every person who has ever experienced a moment of unhappiness that they're depressed and should take this pill; it's bullshit on the deepest level. But I digress.

At any rate, my recruiters advice has been this: disclose the legal issues, explain that you've gotten sober and how (AA), but *do not* disclose the extent of the past drug use, your time in rehab, or that you've received psychological treatment.

My thought/question to all of you: I understand most people shade the truth at MEPS, and that in a way what he advises I disclose does tell like 90% of what matters -- I had a drinking problem, I'm sober now thanks to AA -- but these still seem like pretty big omissions. If I were to follow his advice on this, is this something that's likely to pop back up and haunt me later in my career on some more exacting background check?
As an initial matter, congratulations on getting healthy. You've done a great job turning things around.

This is a tough situation and I don't know if you are going to find a great answer on this thread.
I don't think any of the currently serving JAGs on the thread, myself included, are going to suggest not being candid about your background. And the prospective JAGs out there really won't know what they are talking about.

Unfortunately I think you will have an uphill road with an application, something I think you already know. You should for sure apply and request the necessary waivers, while considering an alternate path if things don't go your way.

I disagree with the poster above that the military is somehow worse for someone with previous mental health or substance abuse issues, compared to say, practicing law on the civilian side. We are in not exactly in a profession known for positive mental health, be it wearing a uniform or a Brooks Brothers suit. And if the OP has been able to get into a T1 program and thrive, that certainly suggests he/she is more than capable of handling themselves.

Best of luck to you.

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