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twenty wrote:

Patrick Bateman wrote: Experience in labor, federal employment, and the like is very marketable. Information litigation (FOIA, Privacy Act, etc) is also extremely marketable and in demand. Ethics sells well, as does anything related to procurement/contracting/acquisitions. Folks with contracting experience will do very well when they get out. Having a TS or TS/SCI clearance is also very helpful, depending on where you want to go.

Hi Patrick, your comments on this thread has been infinitely helpful to someone (myself) looking to do JAG. I very much hope you decide to stick around even after you leave active duty.

Question concerning the above quoted; are those fields (ethics, contracting, etc.) difficult to get experience in within JAG? I can't help but think everyone and their cousin would want to do this kind of work for the exact reasons you articulated in your post.

Thanks.

Patrick Bateman wrote:Over the years, there have been a few times the "JAG exit options" question has come up on the thread. I'm now in a position to add my two cents. I'm punching out into the reserves and the warm embrace of Federal civil service at the end of the calendar year. I will be joining the general counsel’s office of a Fed law enforcement agency but am not going to elaborate beyond that, nor my reasons for the decision to leave active duty.

Bottom line - you will be competitive as a JAG with Federal hiring but your options will be directly related to your subject matter expertise. Those getting out need to cast a very wide net and be ready for a long, slow, occasionally arbitrary, and sometimes demoralizing process.

For JAGs with a trial background like me (ADCs, STCs, etc) , the job focus is traditionally at USAO and DOJ. I landed interviews and callbacks with both. There are more divisions and individual offices within DOJ than I ever knew starting out – some are highly specialized where you need experience in capital cases, digital forensic cases, wiretapping warrants, etc. Some folks will be lucky enough to get that experience in the JAG Corps, some will not. I took the offensive with all of my courtroom and appellate time and sold it was “you can’t teach someone to be an effective trial attorney but you can teach someone X in a matter of weeks.” That generally sold well.

Unless you have an unusual background for a JAG that features a Federal clerkship, prior experience at a top law firm, or an elite law school pedigree, do not hold your breath for an AUSA position with any of the major offices (EDVA, SDNY, NDIL, etc). They do hire former ADAs and other folks with real trial experience like JAGs but it can be hit and miss. In that OSI was largely incompetent in my experience and I ended up doing a lot of trial investigations on my own, in addition to running investigations when I ran military justice at a base office, I was able to sell the whole investigations piece of being an AUSA in addition to my trial work. We are sorely lacking when it comes to doing high-level litigation involving anything financial or white collar, which is a very big piece of what the major offices do. A lot can come down to luck. Expect a very, very long process with USAO (a close friend went 4 months after submitting his app before hearing from them about an interview).

For those very interested in working as an AUSA: USAO for D.C. has a unique structure with a huge amount of AUSAs that do ADA type work for 4 years (in that the District is all Fed, the AUSAs do all the normal prosecutions in Superior court) - still super competitive but they hire JAGs and it is more accessible than EDVA just down the street. The drawback is that you are not necessarily doing "real" AUSA level prosecutions but a foot in the door/courtroom is nothing to be overlooked. I have several friends who landed AUSA positions in more regional markets/less competitive districts as well. Those smaller offices really can come down to timing as they are only hiring now and again.

This same analysis applies if you are considering going to the white-collar practice division of any of the major law firms. You will have a number of strikes against you going in if you are the average JAG applicant (same reasons listed above – we are not what they traditionally hire) but it is very possible with a great trial background and a firm with an open mind. If you are considering this route, you need to work through a professional recruiter short of having an uncle who is already a partner at the firm. I was competitive with a half dozen impressive firms but had to make the lifestyle decision between a huge paycheck and a better GS lifestyle. Not sure if I made the right call or not.

There are a ton of other Federal positions, usually in general counsel offices. These are offices where exclusively trial experience can be a disadvantage because they don’t really litigate (that is what DOJ and USAO is for). Experience in labor, federal employment, and the like is very marketable. Information litigation (FOIA, Privacy Act, etc) is also extremely marketable and in demand. Ethics sells well, as does anything related to procurement/contracting/acquisitions. Folks with contracting experience will do very well when they get out. Having a TS or TS/SCI clearance is also very helpful, depending on where you want to go.

A big piece that I did not appreciate until I was there was the timing. Six years really appears to be the sweet spot in terms of marketability. Four years is simply too junior – you have not done enough at two base legal offices and maybe a year at ADC. You can sell it, for sure, and you may be fine (folks punch at four all the time). Eight years through ten can make you too senior and experienced for folks to be interested – they don’t want to have to pay you at the level your experience demands when they can get two mid-range people for the price of you. This applies double for law firms – six is the absolute sweet spot where you can still get hired as a senior associate two to three years before a partner decision.

The resume and cover letter cannot be overstated in terms of importance. They need to be perfect and that takes just hours upon hours of work. Further, they need to be individually tailored to each job with the right keywords. Kathryn Kraemer Troutman has a number of books available on Amazon that are extremely helpful – read them and also talk to anyone you know already in the Federal system.

Another piece is how good military pay is in terms of the tax benefits and all of the stuff we do not have to pay for (health insurance, etc). You really need to make a lot of money as a civilian to break even – I was absolutely shocked, even coming out as a O-3 with six years in. I was able to negotiate my way to a break-even salary, but it was not something initially expected. Run the numbers if you are toying with getting out.

Hopefully this helps. I have the feeling this will generate quite a few follow questions – I’m extremely busy at work over the next month or so, so I will do what I can, but take this as just a general guideline. I have zero interest in being the Federal hiring guru on this thread as there are just too many variables. That said, those wearing the uniform or endeavoring to should feel relatively comfortable that there are solid options on the outside. Good luck.

*Edits for clarity and more on the AUSA section.

dat209 wrote:Noticed that the Army JAG Reserve application deadline was extended 2 additional weeks and that the Active Duty deadline was extended by a few days. Does anyone know if this has any significance (potentially low volume of applications for reserves, etc?)?
Thanks

hoepner33 wrote:
Three questions:

1) How does the timing work? Do you decide to ETS and then start looking for a job, or does the government hire far enough out that you can already have a job lined up when you decide to ETS?

2) How geographically limited are the AUSA positions? Are people basically only applying in the district where their base is located, or are they applying all over the place (with the exception of the "competitive" districts)?

3) You mentioned it is often demoralizing in the job search. Can you go into any more details on this?

Appreciate the help.

mhylden wrote:Any rumors (or even better non-rumors) out there about Air Force Oct. DAP Board?

mhylden wrote:Any rumors (or even better non-rumors) out there about Air Force Oct. DAP Board?

The silence is killing me.....

eas123 wrote:Also rejected for AF JAG, 5th time.

You know...I've tried to do everything for the past 7 years with a focus on JAG. 3.8/T5 undergrad, 3.6/T14 law school, AF JAG internship & 2 USDOJ crim internships in DC, Vets Clinic director, Vets Law Society Board, vets alumni group co-founder, Chief Articles Editor journal experience, helped establish new veterans clinical course at the law school, prior DC military policy work, now legal fellow at a non-profit assisting homeless disabled vets. Long-distance runner, athlete, lots of fundraising for veterans causes. Every interview has been great, officers I've met have been very supportive, my current AF friends say it's all good to go. BUT THE COMMITMENT JUST DON'T MATTAH! #frustration #whining #herewegoagain

eas123 wrote:Not a joke. AF internship was awesome -- the SJA there has been a reference since '09. My suspicion: history of depression. I saw a college counselor as a first-year 7-8 years ago and then a therapist a handful of times about 5 years ago, and took a low-level med. (REALLY THREATENING STUFF.) Stupidly, I told every branch about it because I wanted to be honest -- dumb dumb dumb. I'm also in Navy medical processing limbo (I was chosen as an alternate in May) for that very reason. Navy is a different frustrating story entirely.

Does anyone also have any insight on whether being chosen as an alternate for Navy would have been a mark against me for AF...? Or maybe it really is all because of this scaaaary, scary mental health history. I don't know. So easy to say no to any of us these days.

Sincere congratulations to anyone accepted because I know how frustrating this process is, and how awesome it must be to hear "yes"!

eas123 wrote:Not a joke. AF internship was awesome -- the SJA there has been a reference since '09. My suspicion: history of depression. I saw a college counselor as a first-year 7-8 years ago and then a therapist a handful of times about 5 years ago, and took a low-level med. (REALLY THREATENING STUFF.) Stupidly, I told every branch about it because I wanted to be honest -- dumb dumb dumb. I'm also in Navy medical processing limbo (I was chosen as an alternate in May) for that very reason. Navy is a different frustrating story entirely.

Does anyone also have any insight on whether being chosen as an alternate for Navy would have been a mark against me for AF...? Or maybe it really is all because of this scaaaary, scary mental health history. I don't know. So easy to say no to any of us these days.

Sincere congratulations to anyone accepted because I know how frustrating this process is, and how awesome it must be to hear "yes"!

71723 wrote:

eas123 wrote:Not a joke. AF internship was awesome -- the SJA there has been a reference since '09. My suspicion: history of depression. I saw a college counselor as a first-year 7-8 years ago and then a therapist a handful of times about 5 years ago, and took a low-level med. (REALLY THREATENING STUFF.) Stupidly, I told every branch about it because I wanted to be honest -- dumb dumb dumb. I'm also in Navy medical processing limbo (I was chosen as an alternate in May) for that very reason. Navy is a different frustrating story entirely.

Does anyone also have any insight on whether being chosen as an alternate for Navy would have been a mark against me for AF...? Or maybe it really is all because of this scaaaary, scary mental health history. I don't know. So easy to say no to any of us these days.

Sincere congratulations to anyone accepted because I know how frustrating this process is, and how awesome it must be to hear "yes"!

Being completely serious, what prevents someone like you from just applying again and not listing that stuff. Do they keep records on your previous applications? It's absurd for a low-level, non-issue to preclude you from service.