Military Law Forum

[Patrick Bateman]

Does anyone have an idea of how many spots are available each year for the JAG (ARMY, NAVY, AF)? Not looking for exact just a ballpark estimate.

I believe Air Force JAG is 120 a year. Keep in mind this is from a variety of sources: ROTC/USAF Academy Grads/Active Duty Officers in the FLEP/ELP/Ed Delay programs, law students in the GLP/OYCP programs, direct commission 3Ls/civilians, etc.

If the USAF academy is anything like USMA, then they will not be able to join JAG until after they have served for at least 2 years.

That's right. I'm not sure what the official requirement is but USAFA grads generally seem to be at least junior captains (0-3) before they get picked up for FELP/ELP.

[Penrosa]

what do you know about inactive duty with JAG? i just finished my second year in law school and have been offered a post grad job with navy jag. i also only plan to do it for 4 years and then transition into something like the us attorneys office. i've been asking recruiters about the chances of being called up during the four year inactive commitment, but i can't get a straight answer (very surprising, i know). i know you are doing air force, but i'm curious what they have told you about it.

[Patrick Bateman]

what do you know about inactive duty with JAG? i just finished my second year in law school and have been offered a post grad job with navy jag. i also only plan to do it for 4 years and then transition into something like the us attorneys office. i've been asking recruiters about the chances of being called up during the four year inactive commitment, but i can't get a straight answer (very surprising, i know). i know you are doing air force, but i'm curious what they have told you about it.

I've had "total force" classes (Air National Guard & Reserves) in both OTS and JASOC and I still cannot make any sense of it. There are many colors of Reserves in the AF and it seems needlessly complicated. That said, I do know that after our initial 4, if we punch out, we are Inactive Reserve. This is the absolute last line and in the JAG realm, is never (at least so far) tapped. You have to figure that with, at best, 10% selection rates, it is not like JAG Corps hurts for numbers. That said, it is not beyond the realm of possibility. I was actually talking about this with one of the E-7 paralegals last week. he could not fathom a JAG being recalled from inactive reserve short of a Russia/China level conflict.

Regardless, you are protected by USERRA if such a situation were to occur. You cannot get fired or discriminated against for your reserve status/commitment. USAO and other federal lawyering positions are filled with former JAGs, many that are still active reservists and I have never heard of it ever being an issue.

[TonyDigital]

what do you know about inactive duty with JAG? i just finished my second year in law school and have been offered a post grad job with navy jag. i also only plan to do it for 4 years and then transition into something like the us attorneys office. i've been asking recruiters about the chances of being called up during the four year inactive commitment, but i can't get a straight answer (very surprising, i know). i know you are doing air force, but i'm curious what they have told you about it.

The reason why the recruiters can't give you a straight answer is because the nature of the inactive reserve is to have a pool of trained professionals available in instances of emergency manning shortages. That means during a time of war basically (or a major conflict). So since recruiters can't predict when a war will pop off...the only straight answer they could really give you is...during your inactive reserve time, you could be called up. That's it.

I was active for 6 years and inactive for 2 with the USAF (enlisted IT career field). FWIW, the only people I've heard of getting recalled from inactive reserve with the AF were Intelligence folks. I've also seen IT folks stop-lossed. Not sure if JAGs can get stop-lossed or not but I'm sure Uncle Sam can if he wanted to.

[Rotor]

what do you know about inactive duty with JAG? i just finished my second year in law school and have been offered a post grad job with navy jag. i also only plan to do it for 4 years and then transition into something like the us attorneys office. i've been asking recruiters about the chances of being called up during the four year inactive commitment, but i can't get a straight answer (very surprising, i know). i know you are doing air force, but i'm curious what they have told you about it.

I've been around over 20 years and in that time no one has been called up from the inactive reserves. (well at least I haven't heard of it and that would be national news worthy...)

So a) make sure the terms of your agreement say inactive reserves rather than Individual Ready Reserve (people sometimes confuse IR with IRR, but IR makes sense in this case) and b) sign on with confidence that should the nation need to dip into the inactive reserves, you'll have bigger concerns than just whether or not you get called up.

[hanshi]

Right now I can pass the air force fitness test, but only score like a 79, with a 75 being the lowest "good" rating. Hey, I'm working on it. Would the fact that I can barely pass it hurt my chances of being selected? Or is it just, hey, he passed, thats good enough?

[Patrick Bateman]

Right now I can pass the air force fitness test, but only score like a 79, with a 75 being the lowest "good" rating. Hey, I'm working on it. Would the fact that I can barely pass it hurt my chances of being selected? Or is it just, hey, he passed, thats good enough?

Your PT scores have zero impact on your selection (assuming you are going for direct appointment). You do want to look fit for your interview with the SJA though.

OTS and JASOC will be a far more pleasant experience the closer you are to the 90s.

[Penrosa]

what do you know about inactive duty with JAG? i just finished my second year in law school and have been offered a post grad job with navy jag. i also only plan to do it for 4 years and then transition into something like the us attorneys office. i've been asking recruiters about the chances of being called up during the four year inactive commitment, but i can't get a straight answer (very surprising, i know). i know you are doing air force, but i'm curious what they have told you about it.

I've been around over 20 years and in that time no one has been called up from the inactive reserves. (well at least I haven't heard of it and that would be national news worthy...)

So a) make sure the terms of your agreement say inactive reserves rather than Individual Ready Reserve (people sometimes confuse IR with IRR, but IR makes sense in this case) and b) sign on with confidence that should the nation need to dip into the inactive reserves, you'll have bigger concerns than just whether or not you get called up.

Thanks for the info. I figured that was the case but I could not find any statistics on it. I'm only concerned about the inactive period because I'm a girl and apparently will need to have a kid in the next 8 years...not that you can't be in the military with a kid, but it's nice to have an accurate picture of the length of commitment.

[Drew2010]

I was reading that in the Marines and Air Force JAG officers are also line officers, and I was wondering if anyone had information about how this works? For example, in the Marines, can A JAG officer also serve as an infantry officer? How would that work in the air force? Thanks for any info!

Also, I'm sorry if this has already been addressed, but if you go straight to JAG from law school would you still have a shot at big law when you finish? (assuming you had a shot to begin with)

[J-Rod]

I was reading that in the Marines and Air Force JAG officers are also line officers, and I was wondering if anyone had information about how this works? For example, in the Marines, can A JAG officer also serve as an infantry officer? How would that work in the air force? Thanks for any info!

Also, I'm sorry if this has already been addressed, but if you go straight to JAG from law school would you still have a shot at big law when you finish? (assuming you had a shot to begin with)

I know that in the Marines, you are a line officer first, and a JAG second . . . so it's possible, though not likely that you might never do any legal work in the Marines, in the Marines you also do the same basic as everyone else, not a separate one for JAGS.

And you would have a shot at biglaw, but it would be harder . . . you'd have to apply laterally, and odds are you wouldn't have several years of specialty focus in one area of law, so you'd probably have to aim for litigation departments, etc. Perhaps maritime law if you did Navy JAG.

[E\/ERLAST]

As to the Marines - yes you can, and very well might serve as an infantry officer depending on where your stationed. Individual I know joined Marine JAG and served as an infantry officer. I've also heard of JAG officers that have never served in the JAG capacity at all. All depends on what the Marines need at the time.

Also, if you accept a Marine commission (assuming you pass OCS), you are obligated to serve regardless of whether or not you pass the bar.

As to Biglaw, I have no idea. I want to say it will help you slightly. But I imagine a lot of the litigations skills you gain in JAG might not transfer over as well to Biglaw unless you join a heavy litigation biglaw firm.

[J-Rod]

What are the re-enlistment bonuses like for Air Force and Navy? I know the Army is 20K for 2 years, then 40k for another 4 after that, but I can't find the info for the other two branches

[brownshoe]

What are the re-enlistment bonuses like for Air Force and Navy? I know the Army is 20K for 2 years, then 40k for another 4 after that, but I can't find the info for the other two branches

Navy is also 60K - not sure about the exact years, but it's very similar to what you quoted for the Army.

[Rotor]

What are the re-enlistment bonuses like for Air Force and Navy? I know the Army is 20K for 2 years, then 40k for another 4 after that, but I can't find the info for the other two branches

Navy is also 60K - not sure about the exact years, but it's very similar to what you quotedfor the Army.

Word of caution though. Don't base decisions as if the retention bonuses are guaranteed. Rumor is that bonuses will be extremely limited in the future. True, JAG bonus will probably stay, it may not stay at the same rate. May affect enlisted personnel more than officers in this economy, but wanted to make sure you knew the $ situation is in flux.

Edit: quote challenged

[Patrick Bateman]

USAF is also $60K, essentially $10,000 a year. $20K to stay on from 4 years to 6. $40K to stay on from 6 years to 10.

And not to be petty, but it is not re-enlistment to stay on as an officer. Officers are commissioned, taking an oath of office. We simply do not resign our commissions. Enlisted take an oath of enlistment and subsequently re-enlist.

Not trying to spark an officer v. enlisted debate, just trying to clear up the term.

[J-Rod]

USAF is also $60K, essentially $10,000 a year. $20K to stay on from 4 years to 6. $40K to stay on from 6 years to 10.

And not to be petty, but it is not re-enlistment to stay on as an officer. Officers are commissioned, taking an oath of office. We simply do not resign our commissions. Enlisted take an oath of enlistment and subsequently re-enlist.

Not trying to spark an officer v. enlisted debate, just trying to clear up the term.

cool, thanks for the heads up

[chief915]

For AF JAG, are letters of recommendation required? Even if not required, who should they come from - law school professors?

[Patrick Bateman]

For AF JAG, are letters of recommendation required? Even if not required, who should they come from - law school professors?

You can check out the application requirements on the AF JAG page:

--LinkRemoved--

I would strongly recommend LORs. I was in the 2L internship program so two of my letters came from Active Duty Field Grades that were in my office (Deputy SJA, Deputy Chief of Civil Law). My third came from a reserve Army JAG 0-6 who was one of my law professors.

[3milesup]

Does anyone have an idea of how many spots are available each year for the JAG (ARMY, NAVY, AF)? Not looking for exact just a ballpark estimate.

Navy has been about 70-80/year recently. About 5-7 of those are active duty (LEP) and about 5-7 are direct commissions (practicing lawyers). The rest are student program, meaning they are offered as 2Ls or 3Ls.

Is that right?? Only 5 to 7 accepted via DA annually? So what/who do I have to be to be among the elected? An admiral's son? Wow. I really want to apply for Navy JAGC but with those low numbers I'd have a better chance of making a White House Fellowship!

Notwithstanding, any advice on the personal statement (w/o it sounding too rah-rah?).

Thanks!

[J-Rod]

Does anyone have an idea of how many spots are available each year for the JAG (ARMY, NAVY, AF)? Not looking for exact just a ballpark estimate.

Navy has been about 70-80/year recently. About 5-7 of those are active duty (LEP) and about 5-7 are direct commissions (practicing lawyers). The rest are student program, meaning they are offered as 2Ls or 3Ls.

Is that right?? Only 5 to 7 accepted via DA annually? So what/who do I have to be to be among the elected? An admiral's son? Wow. I really want to apply for Navy JAGC but with those low numbers I'd have a better chance of making a White House Fellowship!

Notwithstanding, any advice on the personal statement (w/o it sounding too rah-rah?).

Thanks!

For my personal statement for the ARMY JAG internship, I was just honest about my desire to serve my country, why I wanted to, etc. Seems as though they want people who want to serve, not people who aren't sure, or those who use JAG as a back-up in a bad economy. JAG applications have gone up substantially in this economy, so it is more competitive now than ever

[BHL]

Does anyone have an idea of how many spots are available each year for the JAG (ARMY, NAVY, AF)? Not looking for exact just a ballpark estimate.

Navy has been about 70-80/year recently. About 5-7 of those are active duty (LEP) and about 5-7 are direct commissions (practicing lawyers). The rest are student program, meaning they are offered as 2Ls or 3Ls.

Is that right?? Only 5 to 7 accepted via DA annually? So what/who do I have to be to be among the elected? An admiral's son? Wow. I really want to apply for Navy JAGC but with those low numbers I'd have a better chance of making a White House Fellowship!

Notwithstanding, any advice on the personal statement (w/o it sounding too rah-rah?).

Thanks!

For my personal statement for the ARMY JAG internship, I was just honest about my desire to serve my country, why I wanted to, etc. Seems as though they want people who want to serve, not people who aren't sure, or those who use JAG as a back-up in a bad economy. JAG applications have gone up substantially in this economy, so it is more competitive now than ever

I'm not so sure about that. I know a few people who received JAG offers this past year who only applied because their biglaw firm didn't give them an offer. Yes, JAG doesn't seem to care as much about law school rank, but it still matters. I remember WUSTL having stats on its students who applied to JAG and I think all if not close to all of them received offers (though this was before the economy meltdown). The selection process still remains somewhat of a mystery to me.

As for what to write in a personal essay, I agree with just being honest. A lot of people seem to stress their desire to serve, but if that's not your thing, then write about something else. I did. Mine mostly focused on my interest in traveling and living in different places and wanting to work somewhere that's more of a family than just a place to get a paycheck. The SJA will probably ask you a few questions about your statement, so be prepared to discuss the reasons you gave during the interview. If you're being honest, then it's easier. Additionally, most attorneys know how to cut through the bullshit, so they probably won't buy yours if you try to serve it.

[Rotor]

Additionally, most attorneys know how to cut through the bullshit, so they probably won't buy yours if you try to serve it.

+1

Most lawyers and practically every seasoned officer I've served with regardless of service, JAG or not. Certainly no senior officer like the SJA is going to buy phoney commitment in a PS or interview.

It's a delicate balance you have to strike, because any of us who serve for any real length of time understand how committed we are...and to have some noob try to say he/she has more and is better/stronger/faster than anyone ever can be a put off.

I've been on numerous officer program screening interviews during my career and those who are genuine always win out over the one trying to tell the board what they want to hear. (at least what they think the board wants to hear...)

Good luck.

[3milesup]

Thanks for the advice.

As a follow up, any idea what my letters of recommendation should include/not include? My recommenders have been asking. I told them to comment on my legal skills, leadership ability, etc.

[J-Rod]

legal skills, leadership ability, motivation, integrity, etc. the usual stuff

[Rotor]

Thanks for the advice.

As a follow up, any idea what my letters of recommendation should include/not include? My recommenders have been asking. I told them to comment on my legal skills, leadership ability, etc.

In addition to ^, make sure the recommender gives a sense of how well he/she knows you & how closely you've worked/how long. This establishes the credibility of the author.

Ask them to compare you with others who have been/are in similar positions, but only if it would be a very positive comment. Good but not great here could damn you with faint praise.

Finally, CONCRETE EXAMPLES of why he/she says such good things about you.

Oh, and it all has to be done in a page.