Military Law Forum

[holajerin]

I called the AF JAG line 5x yesterday but I haven't been able to get a hold of someone. Left a message. I'll keep trying today. Have to hear by tomorrow or I'll need to take the unpaid Navy internship (which I know I'd be happy with anyway but it would be nice to get paid).

Good to know I'm not the only one still in that boat.

[bouakedojo]

I was offered a position as an intern for the AF JAG! They gave me a couple of days to decide which base I wanted to work at. Does anyone know what the benefits or downsides are working at HQ at Andrews vs. being stationed at a regular base?

Congrats. That's interesting that they let you choose. I had thought it was just in DC.

Edit: Are you a 2L?

[shock259]

I spoke with a gentlemen from the Air Force JAG line. He said that the internship app decisions have not yet been made and didn't think they would be made within the next day. As such, he wasn't able to give an answer on the status of my application.

I'll be accepting the Navy offer. And not opening the letter I get from the Air Force in two weeks.

Good luck to everyone!

[bouakedojo]

I spoke with a gentlemen from the Air Force JAG line. He said that the internship app decisions have not yet been made and didn't think they would be made within the next day. As such, he wasn't able to give an answer on the status of my application.

I'll be accepting the Navy offer. And not opening the letter I get from the Air Force in two weeks.

Good luck to everyone!

I'm sorry to hear that shock. I know you were really wanting it (as we all are).

I hope your Navy internship rocks your socks off.

[leedleed]

I spoke with a gentlemen from the Air Force JAG line. He said that the internship app decisions have not yet been made and didn't think they would be made within the next day. As such, he wasn't able to give an answer on the status of my application.

I'll be accepting the Navy offer. And not opening the letter I get from the Air Force in two weeks.

Good luck to everyone!

Navy internship should be a good experience -- which location did you get?

[billaboy12]

So is there any truth to Euronupe's notification on the Air Force internship? I'm not at all trying to call him/her out, just confused following Shock's call.

[bouakedojo]

So is there any truth to Euronupe's notification on the Air Force internship? I'm not at all trying to call him/her out, just confused following Shock's call.

I believe Euronupe is a 2L, but I'm not for sure on that.

Shock's a 1L, so maybe the 2L decisions are made before the 1L decisions?

[northerniowan]

Last week I was selected to be a Marine Corps Judge Advocate. I'll be heading to Quantico this summer for 10 weeks. I'm a 1L at a T2.

I'll answer any questions anyone might have about the Marine Corps application process.

DD352,

I'm going in front of the selection boards on April 5th. I have a 265 PFT. What is your PFT score? Also, my OSO had me fill out a SF86. Is that usually done only for selects?

Thank You

[Euronupe]

Thanks holajerin! I heard from AF JAG on Wednesday and they gave me until today to decide so I'm assuming some more acceptance emails will be sent out soon. (I'm a 2L btw)

[kellettp]

According to the Air Force JAG Corps' Facebook page, notifications for the summer internship will be going out next week.

http://www.facebook.com/USAFJAG

[justitiasuperomnia]

Hey, y'all

0L here, interested in JAG but not sure which branch. I'm partial to Army and USMC due to family, but am open to learn about USN and AF, too. What are the best resources to find out more about all of them? Some of their websites seem to be lacking information about getting involved before DA and all of the stipulations.

Right now, I want to get into IP/International/Litigation, so I'm hoping all branches would be good for Int'l/Lit, but if one would be better, please don't hesitate to share.

Don't know if I'm starting too early or too late, but am definitely seriously considering this post-grad. Should I start talking to recruiters now, apply for summer internships, or just DA during 3L?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[shock259]

This thread is probably one of the best sources of information on the JAG programs on the Internet. You will definitely want to take the time to read through it to get a sense of what JAGs do, how to apply, etc.

If you are serious about applying to the branches, you will need to start early. Selection rates are in single digits for most programs. If you wait until 3L to start applying to programs, there's a great chance you won't get picked up before you graduate.

[Patrick Bateman]

Hey, y'all

0L here, interested in JAG but not sure which branch. I'm partial to Army and USMC due to family, but am open to learn about USN and AF, too. What are the best resources to find out more about all of them? Some of their websites seem to be lacking information about getting involved before DA and all of the stipulations.

Right now, I want to get into IP/International/Litigation, so I'm hoping all branches would be good for Int'l/Lit, but if one would be better, please don't hesitate to share.

Don't know if I'm starting too early or too late, but am definitely seriously considering this post-grad. Should I start talking to recruiters now, apply for summer internships, or just DA during 3L?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Justitia,

As always, my perspective is limited to my experiences in the Air Force.
I have to agree with Shock here. In terms of the volume of information from a variety of different perspectives from different services, this thread is hard to beat. There are some things that are easiest to get directly from the official websites though. For example, the AF JAG website makes it very easy to investigate the different programs available, from Direct Appointment for 3Ls/barred attorneys, to OYCP for 2Ls, GLP for 1Ls, and the internship program. You can also pull the applications, requirements, and other details associated with each program.

With my time as an AF JAG, I cannot see you getting any significant intellectual property. I have seen it come up now and again (“Can X organization use the Thunderbirds logo for Y?”) but it is not common. International Law is a pretty squishy title. If you are stationed at RAF Lakenheath and prosecute/defend an Airman for DUI, does that qualify as international law? While deployed to Guantanamo, I dealt with a variety of individuals and issues that involved foreign countries. International, yes. Law, yes. But international law? Eh. Opportunities for more “clear” international law can come up as you get more senior in rank (Major, Lieutenant Colonel).
If trial work and criminal litigation is what you mean by litigation, you will get that in spades in the Air Force.

Each JAG Corps is a direct reflection of the service to which they are a part. Even as staff officers, our day to day is directly impacted by the culture of the service we are in. I think it would be a mistake to pick the Army or Air Force because you could get more trial work or other subject matter experience if your passion has you serving in the Navy.

[weevil]

Was recently accepted to the AF intern program via phone, so tagging this thread. Very excited for the opportunity

Does anyone have any input about which bases might be preferable? I'm thinking about HQ in DC at the moment (is that Bolling or Andrews or neither?) but am open to other locations.

[Patrick Bateman]

Was recently accepted to the AF intern program via phone, so tagging this thread. Very excited for the opportunity

Does anyone have any input about which bases might be preferable? I'm thinking about HQ in DC at the moment (is that Bolling or Andrews or neither?) but am open to other locations.

Congrats!

*Disclaimer: Spent my internship at a base legal office and loved every second of it.*

The benefit of HQ is it is may give you the chance to meet, albeit briefly, a lot of the movers, shakers, and brass within the JAG Corps. From TJAG through all the JA_ directorates (JAX included), they are all located in the NCR. I have no idea how much exposure you will get, or where they would possibly assign you, but it would no doubt be a good place to make friends and influence people.

The benefit of base legal is that it gives you a true look at what you will be signing up for in terms of the first four years. You'll be in it with all the Captain types and will see the good and the bad. After my 10 weeks, I knew exactly what I was signing up for when I applied for DAP and that was a good feeling. You'll also get to know a group of CGOs that can form a sort of network for you as you are starting out. Your JASOC class will form your closest relationships but I always found it great to know some JAGs that had 2-3 years on me and were in the more senior ADC, STC, and other positions. I still stay in touch with the Captains that I interned with and similarly have stayed in touch with former interns, some that commissioned and others that went on to other things.

There is no real right/wrong answer. Each will have pros/cons. If you to go to a base legal office, find out what that base does. If you are hoping to see courts-martial and help with witness interviews, going to a Space Command base like Patrick AFB will not be the right move. If you have specific interests, there is no harm in asking JAX if they can recommend/place you in a base office that works in that field.

[justitiasuperomnia]

Thanks for the feedback. Have been steadily making my way through the previous posts in this thread - all very helpful.

[holajerin]

Hi everyone,

I know there's some information on this in the thread already, but I haven't seen the question posed quite this way yet (though I'm still working my way through the thread). I'm a 1L (very excited that will be doing the Navy JAG internship this summer!) and will need to make some decisions in the near future about what extracurriculars I want to pursue next year. Could any of the current/former JAGs give a rough rank-order of these options as to how positive they would look for OYCP/DAP applicants:

1. Mock trial
2. Moot court
3. Criminal defense clinic
4. Other type of clinic (like a refugee & asylum law clinic)
5. Primary journal
6. Secondary journal (on something like either criminal or immigration law)
7. In-semester JAG externship
8. In-semester other-organization externship (such as DOJ, DA's office, etc.)
9. Student organization leadership
10. Research assistant for professor
11. Judicial externship/clerkship
12. Various legal volunteer work (ex.: legal aid)
13. Various non-legal volunteer work (ex.: student mentoring)
14. Other ( ____ )

Thanks!

[Groundie]

Army Reserve application should be online by April 15, 2012.

[toster19]

I just accepted a Navy JAG summer internship in San Diego. Any idea when we will get information as to dates of the program? I need to try to schedule some of my other commitments around JAG, but dont know when I will be working.

[Fed_Atty]

I just accepted a Navy JAG summer internship in San Diego. Any idea when we will get information as to dates of the program? I need to try to schedule some of my other commitments around JAG, but dont know when I will be working.

Generally the intern program is pretty flexible. Most likely you will hear from the intern coordinator for that office in the future. Hard to speculate on when that will be.

[Patrick Bateman]

Hi everyone,

I know there's some information on this in the thread already, but I haven't seen the question posed quite this way yet (though I'm still working my way through the thread). I'm a 1L (very excited that will be doing the Navy JAG internship this summer!) and will need to make some decisions in the near future about what extracurriculars I want to pursue next year. Could any of the current/former JAGs give a rough rank-order of these options as to how positive they would look for OYCP/DAP applicants:

1. Mock trial
2. Moot court
3. Criminal defense clinic
4. Other type of clinic (like a refugee & asylum law clinic)
5. Primary journal
6. Secondary journal (on something like either criminal or immigration law)
7. In-semester JAG externship
8. In-semester other-organization externship (such as DOJ, DA's office, etc.)
9. Student organization leadership
10. Research assistant for professor
11. Judicial externship/clerkship
12. Various legal volunteer work (ex.: legal aid)
13. Various non-legal volunteer work (ex.: student mentoring)
14. Other ( ____ )

Thanks!

I do not have the energy to rack and stack this list but here are my thoughts. As always, limited to my AF JAG experience.

I've never thought the Student Bar Association (or whatever the law school govt body is called) really matters in any professional sense. I can see an argument that if you end up as President of a group of fellow "insecure overachievers with a bachelor of arts (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... 05HnXomG88), that you have some leadership skills. That, or you were successful in spending SBA funds on open bar nights when you were SBA Treasurer or Vice President. Patrick Bateman's opinion when reviewing a JAG applicant's resume and reading SBA: "Meh."

"Meh" status also goes to being a research assistant for a professor. There may be exceptions to this, such if you help on a major publication and get some sort of footnote shoutout or if this professor has some influence (for example, Texas Tech Law seems to have a ton of retired JAG Colonels and GOs on their faculty). If this position helps the prof get to know you better and turns into a solid letter of rec, might be worth it as well.

I think moot court is a must. It is competitive selection based on writing ability and oral advocacy - JAG likes a winner, even better when it is a pain in the ass and is on based skills you will need throughout your entire career. This is an important consideration for new JAGs that will spend their first four years in the courtroom. For what it is worth, my interviewing SJA showed absolutely zero interest in my position as the managing editor (#2) of a secondary journal but was thrilled with my success on moot court.

See above for secondary journals. I cannot say one way or the other if legit law review status helps at all, at least for selection. If you are interested in working in your service's appellate law shop (senior Captain level position in the AF), law review might matter, but not really a consideration at the applicant level. That said, if JAX is monitoring this thread: Patrick Bateman, appellate government, summer of 2014.

Externship with a local JAG office can be huge, assuming you are a good fit and do a good job. For applicants to all programs (DAP, OYCP, etc), a major question is always "will this person make a good officer?" While law review and GPA might help show who will be the best attorney in a BigLaw or Fed clerkship sense, the elements of a good officer applicant can be hard to identify. Spending time with JAGs who can then vouch for you on the intangibles that make a solid officer can go a long way.

Any time that gets you involved with the courtroom in terms of a clinic or externship will also help. As noted above, the Air Force is looking at people that want to litigate; anything you can demonstrate interest/experience will only help you. On the Fed side, there are a fair share of AUSAs that are reserve JAGs and reserve/former JAGs can be found throughout Main Justice, DoD Gen Counsel, and all the other three letter agencies. Not only will it be a valuable experience, but these folks will be good to know when applying. Working government, be it Fed/state/local, also helps demonstrate a commitment to public service vice chasing BigLaw money.

At the end of the day, something is always better than nothing. Volunteer, extern, and get yourself involved with a program that you have a passion for and will allow you to demonstrate your skills/talents. I am someone that loves the courtroom so I tend to project and focus on the criminal side of JAG. If you have the choice between a criminal defense clinic which you are not excited about but can also do something worthwhile with an environmental law program, and you just love environmental law, go for that. Both of my assignments at the base legal level had involvement with significant environmental law issues. The Air Force has an entire Field Support Center with like minded attorneys that practice just environmental law. If I were an SJA, I would recommend someone that pursued X Clinic/Program because they had a passion for it and did some great things as a law student versus the applicant that half halfheartedly took some crim clinic just to check the box.

As in all employment matters, know your potential employer - you'll notice my rambling advice above more or less turn on litigation and ability to serve as an officer. I would recommend looking into the following: Anything from Mauet for trial litigation; Armed Force Officer's Guide and the Air Force [or whatever lesser service] Officer's Guide for a Cliff's Notes look at the quasi-philosophical on serving with an officer's commission; One Bullet Away (Flick), Joker One (Campbell), Matterhorn (Marlantes), and House-to-House (Bellavia) for the infantry officer perspective on serving an officer (NCO for Bellavia, but still an absolutely incredible perspective on combat leadership in the Post 9/11 world). And before any of you with combat arms experience gets all antsy-in-your-pantsy: I am not comparing serving as a JAG to being an actual door kicker. That said, I think it is important for even staff officer types to understand the ultimate client we are serving and that post 9/11, not even us Chairborne Rangers are immune from some of the dangers in the AOR.

Looking back, probably would have been faster to rack and stack your list.

[holajerin]

Looking back, probably would have been faster to rack and stack your list.

Hey PB,

That's kinda funny. I put it in the list form since I thought it would be easier to respond to than just asking for your thoughts on each of those things. Nevertheless, I'm very grateful for the extensive response! Thanks again!

[DD352]

Last week I was selected to be a Marine Corps Judge Advocate. I'll be heading to Quantico this summer for 10 weeks. I'm a 1L at a T2.

I'll answer any questions anyone might have about the Marine Corps application process.

DD352,

I'm going in front of the selection boards on April 5th. I have a 265 PFT. What is your PFT score? Also, my OSO had me fill out a SF86. Is that usually done only for selects?

Thank You

I had a 269 when I got in. Granted, this is pretty low, but I had some pretty appealing soft factors which I think helped me significantly. I got a 278 on my PFT last week, so mid 280's is my goal before I ship.

SF86 is a security form. From what I'm told, it is required in order to get the clearance we will need (Secret, I believe). I don't think it is a per se indicator for selection. I have filled out an SF86 before for a Navy program I applied to, and completing the file requires an FBI background check. Your OSO might just want to get the ball rolling because it takes so damn long, just like everything else. I wouldn't put too much stock in it, if I were you. You're not in until you complete OCS. Anything up until then is just another means to the end.

Good luck.

Edit: typo

[Doc Review Lifer]

Any other AF DAP applicants awaiting the April Selection Board?

[DaveCA]

Any other AF DAP applicants awaiting the April Selection Board?

Impatiently waiting as always.