Military Law Forum

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Re: Military Law

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:32 pm

Nice to see some other replies in here over the last couple days. The Selection Board machine has clearly been churning through the applications.

I got the email last Thursday 12/2 that I was selected a primary for Army Reserve. This is my second time going through this process, and second time being selected - I was also selected for Air Force Active Duty in 2017, which I decided to turn down in the end. That first time around, I received a phone call from my FSO (Lt. Col.), so I believe the notification system is not consistent across branches. I wasn't expecting to hear so soon in December this time, but I'm not complaining, either.

Similar to a previous post, I also received a quick follow-up email from the Army last Thursday, stating that we have until Dec. 10th to submit out Statement of Intent. FYI, for licensed attorneys selected for Army Active Duty, you have the option to select accelerated commissioning in April or August 2022, if any of you don't want to wait until January/April/August 2023.

Thanks to everyone here for keeping this thread going. It was extremely valuable four years ago, and is still valuable today.

jppilat@syr.edu

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Re: Military Law

Post by jppilat@syr.edu » Tue Dec 14, 2021 8:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:19 pm
kdial wrote:
Thank you, I will for sure do this. Should I be doing anything right now concerning Army paperwork or anything? I just want to make sure I am on top of all of this before I start studying for the bar.
Speaking from experience - the most important thing on the alternate list is to knock out the medical as fast as possible. Being medically cleared significantly improves your chances of being picked up from the alternate list. As soon as possible schedule everything and stay on top of it. It resulted in me being picked up. :mrgreen:
Recently selected USAR JAG alternate, should I advise the Board/JARO that while previously considering Navy Reserves (non-JAG INTEL), I was medically cleared at MEPS through the Navy? I understand these physicals last two years and this was approximately one year ago now. While I hear it’s not preferable/and difficult, physicals can be transferable. Thoughts?

MSUN5

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Re: Military Law

Post by MSUN5 » Wed Dec 15, 2021 8:25 am

This is a totally random question about DCC but I’m curious whether anyone in here has an answer for me.

So I’m starting training on January 9 but I’m also in the middle of teaching myself a foreign language. Kind of a long explanation as to why but it’s also very fun. How much time do you have to yourself in DCC to, hypothetically, study and do your own thing? 5 weeks of just not practicing at all would suck.

Also — broadening the scope of the Q a bit — how much general time to yourself do you have to exercise/lift weights/etc.?

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Re: Military Law

Post by HocVice » Sun Dec 19, 2021 9:52 pm

MSUN5 wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 8:25 am
This is a totally random question about DCC but I’m curious whether anyone in here has an answer for me.

So I’m starting training on January 9 but I’m also in the middle of teaching myself a foreign language. Kind of a long explanation as to why but it’s also very fun. How much time do you have to yourself in DCC to, hypothetically, study and do your own thing? 5 weeks of just not practicing at all would suck.

Also — broadening the scope of the Q a bit — how much general time to yourself do you have to exercise/lift weights/etc.?
I was in the April 2021 class. Most days you'll be busy from 0400ish until dinner time. After dinner, the rest of the evening is yours and you typically don't have any more obligations. Depending on when you go to bed, you at least have a few hours of free time each night. A lot of people jog in the evenings, but weight equipment availability was hit or miss. Charlottesville more than makes up for that though with a tiny gym in the building, and a UVA campus gym a few blocks away.

DCC is also full of "hurry up and wait" style downtime. So you'll also have plenty of time to kill while sitting in hallways, bleachers, etc. waiting for things to happen.

MSUN5

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Re: Military Law

Post by MSUN5 » Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:06 pm

Cool. Thanks for the info.

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Re: Military Law

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:01 pm

I am wondering if anyone can speak to getting medical waiver and what the process/likelihood is. I have a potentially disqualifying condition and I am worried that I won't be able to get a waiver. Please feel free to PM me. Thanks so much.

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Re: Military Law

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jan 03, 2022 4:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:01 pm
I am wondering if anyone can speak to getting medical waiver and what the process/likelihood is. I have a potentially disqualifying condition and I am worried that I won't be able to get a waiver. Please feel free to PM me. Thanks so much.
Can’t PM an Anon AFAIK. But I just went through the waiver process and I might be able to help.

MSUN5

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Re: Military Law

Post by MSUN5 » Mon Jan 03, 2022 4:59 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 4:57 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:01 pm
I am wondering if anyone can speak to getting medical waiver and what the process/likelihood is. I have a potentially disqualifying condition and I am worried that I won't be able to get a waiver. Please feel free to PM me. Thanks so much.
Can’t PM an Anon AFAIK. But I just went through the waiver process and I might be able to help.
Of course I then proceeded to accidentally post that reply as an Anon. Oops. Feel free to PM me.

eat_pray_sue

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Re: Military Law

Post by eat_pray_sue » Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:58 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:01 pm
I am wondering if anyone can speak to getting medical waiver and what the process/likelihood is. I have a potentially disqualifying condition and I am worried that I won't be able to get a waiver. Please feel free to PM me. Thanks so much.
Didn't know I can't be PM'ed as an anonymous but ofc it makes sense. Please PM me if anyone else has any insight to the waiver process. Much thanks!

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Re: Military Law

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:41 am

Hey there everyone! I was hoping someone may bring us some insight. My husband has applied for Direct Appointment Air Force Jag twice now and was declined both times. A contact that once was in Army Jag felt it was because of our large family size. (We have 5 kids all under the age of 10.) Could this be true? Could he be getting denied based on our family size?!? If this is true—is there any point of us pursuing it and trying again?

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Patrick Bateman

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Re: Military Law

Post by Patrick Bateman » Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:58 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:41 am
Hey there everyone! I was hoping someone may bring us some insight. My husband has applied for Direct Appointment Air Force Jag twice now and was declined both times. A contact that once was in Army Jag felt it was because of our large family size. (We have 5 kids all under the age of 10.) Could this be true? Could he be getting denied based on our family size?!? If this is true—is there any point of us pursuing it and trying again?
Your husband is not being denied because you all have kids.

There are a lot of reasons folks end up not selected for the JAG Corps, but family size is not one of them. I don't see how this would even be something before the selection board in the first place.

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Re: Military Law

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Jan 23, 2022 12:01 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:41 am
Hey there everyone! I was hoping someone may bring us some insight. My husband has applied for Direct Appointment Air Force Jag twice now and was declined both times. A contact that once was in Army Jag felt it was because of our large family size. (We have 5 kids all under the age of 10.) Could this be true? Could he be getting denied based on our family size?!? If this is true—is there any point of us pursuing it and trying again?
He is most certainly not being denied because of your family size. These positions are not just handed out. I am speaking from my experience on the Navy side, but I would bet that it applies across all branches. Being appointed to the officer ranks and getting a commission is a competitive process. JAG is no exception here. I was denied four times before I was finally selected for commission.

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Re: Military Law

Post by ubersaurusrex » Fri Jan 28, 2022 1:48 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:41 am
Hey there everyone! I was hoping someone may bring us some insight. My husband has applied for Direct Appointment Air Force Jag twice now and was declined both times. A contact that once was in Army Jag felt it was because of our large family size. (We have 5 kids all under the age of 10.) Could this be true? Could he be getting denied based on our family size?!? If this is true—is there any point of us pursuing it and trying again?
There are limits on the number of dependents you can have to enlist. Your contact might have just gotten the two confused.

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Re: Military Law

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jan 28, 2022 5:10 pm

Random question, current 1L at UVA that is attending through Army FLEP (4 yrs as Infantry officer). I obviously owe a hefty duty obligation on the back end of my time in school, but am curious if there is anything I can do during my time in school and as as JAG to best position myself for a transition to big law? I read the thread about post-JAG career transitions and it seems like the transition to big law can be difficult. Also, would it be worth it to earn an MBA prior to exiting the Army? I figure it might be useful at least as a signal to prospective employers. Thank you for any advice!

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howell

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Re: Military Law

Post by howell » Sat Jan 29, 2022 9:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 5:10 pm
Random question, current 1L at UVA that is attending through Army FLEP (4 yrs as Infantry officer). I obviously owe a hefty duty obligation on the back end of my time in school, but am curious if there is anything I can do during my time in school and as as JAG to best position myself for a transition to big law? I read the thread about post-JAG career transitions and it seems like the transition to big law can be difficult. Also, would it be worth it to earn an MBA prior to exiting the Army? I figure it might be useful at least as a signal to prospective employers. Thank you for any advice!
First, congrats; you're in amazing situation. Good on you.

I do not have the lockdown on how to go from JAG to biglaw, and I am not overly familiar with Army assignment options, but I can discuss avenues I have seen work. A UVA degree will likely open more doors than most JAGs will get, but I can't speak to that directly.

Clerkships - Certainly using a real federal clerkship after one's JAG time can be a way to transition. I know there are some Air Force clerk positions, but they're all criminally-related (AFCCA). Related, certainly try to do what you can in school academically and through law review/journals. Your degree alone is likely enough, but more never hurts.

Contracts - These might not always be your traditional biglaw firms, but there are plenty of large law firms who represent federal contractors. It is a busy, fast-paced area. You can get direct experience in most of the JAG Corps, and the Army is generally thought to be the best at training JAGs (and even others) in this area.

Labor/employment - This might be one of the easier ways. It is what I did. Again, L&E firms aren't always thought of as traditional biglaw, but it's very similar. You can get experience working with unions and working in front of the EEOC. This, plus your general litigation experience you'll get as a JAG, can give you a good chance at L&E firms and/or departments.

The L&E firm I went to doesn't do lockstep classes based on your year group, either (which might be one of your bigger challenges). They just have levels for associates, and they assign you to a level based on your relevant experience. So it's not like you'll have to come in as a 7th-year associate and make partner in 18 months or gtfo.

There might be some national security options, but I don't know as many people who have gone that route. A more fun and slightly more risky option is going the space/cyber route. My friends who have done the space/cyber LLMs indicate a lot of interest, but mostly from corporations. It sounds like getting an LLM in bird law, but it is what I would have tried had I stayed active longer.

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Patrick Bateman

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Re: Military Law

Post by Patrick Bateman » Sun Jan 30, 2022 12:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 5:10 pm
Random question, current 1L at UVA that is attending through Army FLEP (4 yrs as Infantry officer). I obviously owe a hefty duty obligation on the back end of my time in school, but am curious if there is anything I can do during my time in school and as as JAG to best position myself for a transition to big law? I read the thread about post-JAG career transitions and it seems like the transition to big law can be difficult. Also, would it be worth it to earn an MBA prior to exiting the Army? I figure it might be useful at least as a signal to prospective employers. Thank you for any advice!
A number of my friends/peers that have left the Air Force criminal litigation world at the 6-8 year mark (Circuit Trial Counsel, Appellate Counsel, etc) and wanted BigLaw have appeared to do very well lateraling into white collar defense or more general litigation associate jobs.

If you can get a lot of trial experience in the Army, I expect you will be in very good shape marketing that (esp with UVA creds), though obviously some markets can be much more competitive than others.

Howell does a great job of offering some additional paths to firms - I am a bit of the "everything looks like a nail to the hammer" given how my career has gone with primarily a foot in the criminal litigation world. I would say the most important resume line if you are looking to go white collar/general litigation in the firm environment is your litigation body count - you will want as much of the first chair experience in complex courts-martial as you can rack up. I think getting to the appellate shops can add a valuable element to that experience but is not a make-or-break type requirement.

Howell raises the often overlooked consideration of a Federal clerkship after leaving active duty - this remains my biggest regret in terms of options not explored when I was making my transition to the civilian side. Assuming you end up with a good record and experience, I imagine district and circuit clerkships would be within reach and would instantly remove any lingering Army stink/suspicions from your resume if you are shooting for a Wachtell or Cravath level firm.

While second hand, I will say that my friends' experiences in large market BigLaw (NYC, DC) have been extremely mixed. You have a lot of time to figure if that is what you ultimately want to do. Good luck!

eat_pray_sue

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Re: Military Law

Post by eat_pray_sue » Thu Feb 10, 2022 5:38 pm

Did anyone start doing drug test, alcohol test, urinalysis, HIV test for the medical?
I know we have to pay for those out of our pockets (at least for the Army).
Where is a good place to get those tested? And what's the estimate cost for those tests?

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Re: Military Law

Post by JPhillips99 » Thu Feb 10, 2022 7:11 pm

Hi everybody,

I'm a 3L just starting the process of applying for the Air Force active-duty JAG, and was wondering if anyone could advise on my odds. I'm at a public state school in the 80-120 ranking category, class rank is 17/73, GPA 3.69, on Law Review, semi-finalist in an ABA moot court, one state gov internship and two public interest non-profit internships. I'd appreciate any input!

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Re: Military Law

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Feb 10, 2022 9:31 pm

eat_pray_sue wrote:
Thu Feb 10, 2022 5:38 pm
Did anyone start doing drug test, alcohol test, urinalysis, HIV test for the medical?
I know we have to pay for those out of our pockets (at least for the Army).
Where is a good place to get those tested? And what's the estimate cost for those tests?
I went to Labcorp for mine. It's a huge nation wide chain so there's probably one near you. I paid $173 for all required tests.

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Patrick Bateman

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Re: Military Law

Post by Patrick Bateman » Sun Feb 13, 2022 5:56 pm

JPhillips99 wrote:
Thu Feb 10, 2022 7:11 pm
Hi everybody,

I'm a 3L just starting the process of applying for the Air Force active-duty JAG, and was wondering if anyone could advise on my odds. I'm at a public state school in the 80-120 ranking category, class rank is 17/73, GPA 3.69, on Law Review, semi-finalist in an ABA moot court, one state gov internship and two public interest non-profit internships. I'd appreciate any input!
You should be competitive - those are all positive elements and you don't indicate any major red flags in your record.

Review the thread for discussions on the SJA interview, letters of rec, and the other elements that will go into your application package.

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howell

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Re: Military Law

Post by howell » Mon Feb 14, 2022 10:06 am

JPhillips99 wrote:
Thu Feb 10, 2022 7:11 pm
Hi everybody,

I'm a 3L just starting the process of applying for the Air Force active-duty JAG, and was wondering if anyone could advise on my odds. I'm at a public state school in the 80-120 ranking category, class rank is 17/73, GPA 3.69, on Law Review, semi-finalist in an ABA moot court, one state gov internship and two public interest non-profit internships. I'd appreciate any input!
I certainly echo what Patrick Bateman said.

One question you should be able to answer is why you're starting to apply now. There are great answers to that question, of course, but from looking at what you told us, how would you argue there's daylight between you and a 3L who didn't land the job they wanted and is now looking for a backup? I doubt an SJA will directly ask you this, but one thing I saw that turned me off as an interviewer was, "I've always wanted to serve/be a JAG," while the applicant missed multiple chances to apply throughout their law school career.

I'm not picking on you or implying that you don't have an answer to this. Like I said, there are many great answers to this, and I certainly missed a lot of applications during law school. Applicants in general just need to make sure their narrative is consistent.

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Re: Military Law

Post by JPhillips99 » Mon Feb 14, 2022 5:02 pm

howell wrote:
Mon Feb 14, 2022 10:06 am
JPhillips99 wrote:
Thu Feb 10, 2022 7:11 pm
Hi everybody,

I'm a 3L just starting the process of applying for the Air Force active-duty JAG, and was wondering if anyone could advise on my odds. I'm at a public state school in the 80-120 ranking category, class rank is 17/73, GPA 3.69, on Law Review, semi-finalist in an ABA moot court, one state gov internship and two public interest non-profit internships. I'd appreciate any input!
I certainly echo what Patrick Bateman said.

One question you should be able to answer is why you're starting to apply now. There are great answers to that question, of course, but from looking at what you told us, how would you argue there's daylight between you and a 3L who didn't land the job they wanted and is now looking for a backup? I doubt an SJA will directly ask you this, but one thing I saw that turned me off as an interviewer was, "I've always wanted to serve/be a JAG," while the applicant missed multiple chances to apply throughout their law school career.

I'm not picking on you or implying that you don't have an answer to this. Like I said, there are many great answers to this, and I certainly missed a lot of applications during law school. Applicants in general just need to make sure their narrative is consistent.
Thank you both for your feedback! The JAG programs have been on my radar since I started law school, but I only started to seriously consider applying last winter break. I've been interested in working in government the whole time I've been in school, but was leaning administrative law. My course load has been very transactional/administrative law heavy--the only litigation class I've taken was Trial Practice & Evidence (which I really enjoyed). More recently though, I've realized that I really want to gain litigation experience and start my career off with general practice rather than specializing early. The JAG program seems like a great opportunity to work in public interest without needing to specialize in some regulatory area or commit to a career in pure criminal law like a prosecutor.

I'm interested in joining the Air Force specifically because I like aerospace and could see a post-service career in that industry, but I'm definitely open to applying for the other branches as well.

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Re: Military Law

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:45 pm

JPhillips99 wrote:
Mon Feb 14, 2022 5:02 pm
howell wrote:
Mon Feb 14, 2022 10:06 am
JPhillips99 wrote:
Thu Feb 10, 2022 7:11 pm
Hi everybody,

I'm a 3L just starting the process of applying for the Air Force active-duty JAG, and was wondering if anyone could advise on my odds. I'm at a public state school in the 80-120 ranking category, class rank is 17/73, GPA 3.69, on Law Review, semi-finalist in an ABA moot court, one state gov internship and two public interest non-profit internships. I'd appreciate any input!
I certainly echo what Patrick Bateman said.

One question you should be able to answer is why you're starting to apply now. There are great answers to that question, of course, but from looking at what you told us, how would you argue there's daylight between you and a 3L who didn't land the job they wanted and is now looking for a backup? I doubt an SJA will directly ask you this, but one thing I saw that turned me off as an interviewer was, "I've always wanted to serve/be a JAG," while the applicant missed multiple chances to apply throughout their law school career.

I'm not picking on you or implying that you don't have an answer to this. Like I said, there are many great answers to this, and I certainly missed a lot of applications during law school. Applicants in general just need to make sure their narrative is consistent.
Thank you both for your feedback! The JAG programs have been on my radar since I started law school, but I only started to seriously consider applying last winter break. I've been interested in working in government the whole time I've been in school, but was leaning administrative law. My course load has been very transactional/administrative law heavy--the only litigation class I've taken was Trial Practice & Evidence (which I really enjoyed). More recently though, I've realized that I really want to gain litigation experience and start my career off with general practice rather than specializing early. The JAG program seems like a great opportunity to work in public interest without needing to specialize in some regulatory area or commit to a career in pure criminal law like a prosecutor.

I'm interested in joining the Air Force specifically because I like aerospace and could see a post-service career in that industry, but I'm definitely open to applying for the other branches as well.
In 3L spring, applying to other branches might be good just to cast a wide net! I think the lack of litigation classes can be compensated by the fact that you did moot court. One advice is start getting letters of recommendations from past employers and those who know you well personally. AF allows you to submit 5 and it only increases the odd if you submit all 5. I understand it is not that easy to compile them, but that might be one way you can show that you are serious and show your character that is otherwise not demonstrated in resume. Best of luck!

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Re: Military Law

Post by Mpow1571 » Tue Feb 15, 2022 5:36 pm

Hello all, hoping someone can shed some light on the following specific questions:

1) anyone have experience being full time fed gov attorney and joining JAG reserves with no prior military experience? If so, please DM! Considering joining and wanted to know what experience is like.

2) which branches allow applicants to apply to JAG reserve without any prior experience and forego the full time active duty (e.g. just complete the two separate training courses- officer and JAG law)? Basically, I know that I won’t be able to go AD for 4 years, but happy to do a 4,6,8 year service commitment so long as it only encompasses the initial training and then regular monthly/yearly 2 week training.

3) How does the initial training period work with your existing employer? I know they can’t discriminate etc… while you are only a reserve JAG for the initial training are you considered active duty and thus you have to be excused from work? Must both training courses take place within a certain time/window? (Eg. Do you need to do 5 weeks and then say 9-12 depending on branch) back to back? Or can you split them up to go back to civilian job in between?)

4) how does pay/benefits work during initial training and later if you are a fed gov employee? Do you get paid by military or civilian employer? Benefits?

5) How much experience is required to join with no prior military experience (eg is there a rough minimum number of years in practice they look for, generally?)

Thanks!!

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Re: Military Law

Post by Patrick Bateman » Wed Feb 16, 2022 5:13 pm

You will need to put some time into researching some of these issues. There is plenty of information available online. Each service handles Reserve accessions and Reserve service differently.
Mpow1571 wrote:
Tue Feb 15, 2022 5:36 pm
2) which branches allow applicants to apply to JAG reserve without any prior experience and forego the full time active duty (e.g. just complete the two separate training courses- officer and JAG law)? Basically, I know that I won’t be able to go AD for 4 years, but happy to do a 4,6,8 year service commitment so long as it only encompasses the initial training and then regular monthly/yearly 2 week training.
The Air Force does allow a direct commission into the reserve - it is extremely competitive.

You will need to get smart on the two primary flavors of Reserve service - Individual Mobilization Augmentee (IMA) and Traditional Reservist (TR) (Category B and Cat A, respectively, at least in AF JAG parlance), as those have very different commitment expectations and executions.
Mpow1571 wrote:
Tue Feb 15, 2022 5:36 pm
3) How does the initial training period work with your existing employer? I know they can’t discriminate etc… while you are only a reserve JAG for the initial training are you considered active duty and thus you have to be excused from work? Must both training courses take place within a certain time/window? (Eg. Do you need to do 5 weeks and then say 9-12 depending on branch) back to back? Or can you split them up to go back to civilian job in between?)
Read up on USERRA. If you are a Federal attorney, you can read about Military Leave and all that jazz on the OPM website.

The timing of the training courses will depend on a variety of factors - you will know in advance but probably won't have a ton of say when you go (they are called "orders" for a reason).
Mpow1571 wrote:
Tue Feb 15, 2022 5:36 pm
4) how does pay/benefits work during initial training and later if you are a fed gov employee? Do you get paid by military or civilian employer? Benefits?
OTS/OCS/or whatever officer training program you go to is the same as any other military duty - you will be activated on military orders for the duration.

Federal employees can "double dip" if they are on a military leave/annual leave/sick leave status and collect both their civilian pay check and military pay check. If there is no leave to use, you go on a Leave Without Pay status and collect only military pay (and BAH/BAS, other entitlements, etc, depending on the orders).

The OPM website breaks this down.
Mpow1571 wrote:
Tue Feb 15, 2022 5:36 pm
5) How much experience is required to join with no prior military experience (eg is there a rough minimum number of years in practice they look for, generally?)
Requirements are going to be available for each service on their respective websites - put down some shoe leather researching this stuff.

https://afreserve.com/JAG/attorney.php

As noted above, a direct commission into the Reserve is extremely difficult. You will need a resume that makes you competitive enough. But there is no set amount of years that will for sure get you there.

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

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