Military Law Forum

[Patrick Bateman]

Tip for those going Army or already selected for Army JAG from law school: where you take the bar exam matters. Training dates are assigned by preference, but mainly by who gets all their documents in first. One of those documents is the letter of good standing, which you can only get by passing the bar and being admitted as an attorney to a jurisdiction.

I was accepted to Army JAG last year, passed the bar this July, and will head to training in January (the earliest date for my cohort's training schedule).Training dates were this coming January, April, or August. I know some elected to go later, but if you want to start on the earliest possible date, make sure you get your stuff in and pick a state that releases bar exam scores early on. I took the bar in a state that releases results in early Sept./late August, so I was one of the first to get my score and letter of good standing sent in. But some people are waiting on late release states, which also had problems with the software, so they're looking at November/December/January until they just get their scores.

TL;DR: plan your bar exam application for states that release scores early.

This discussion has come up previously in the thread. The date of results is a factor, I guess, along with other soft factors like CLE and fee waivers for military.

But I would offer that people need to pick the right bar for them in terms of where they might actually practice if they separate - depending on individual situations, a decision to sit for Nebraska just because they come back sooner than say New York might be a bad call 4-8 years down the line.

[lurker13]

Does having a higher ranked officer interview help at all when they submit their recommendation letter? I.e. capt v lt col.

[Patrick Bateman]

Does having a higher ranked officer interview help at all when they submit their recommendation letter? I.e. capt v lt col.

It will depend on who the folks are and their relationship to you. Were you an intern at base legal and the Captain worked with you every day but the Lt Col does not really know you from the next gay/gal? Go with the captain (but for interns/externs, I would avoid using first/second assignment captain types if at all humanly possible).

But if both can say good, and substantive things, about you - go with the senior ranking member. They have more experience and their word will probably be given some additional weight.

[Anonymous User]

Does having a higher ranked officer interview help at all when they submit their recommendation letter? I.e. capt v lt col.

Are you asking about the SJA interview or a letter of recommendation?

[Anonymous User]

Question regarding post-bar, pre active-duty accessions process.

Anyone know if EADs for AFJAG come on a rolling basis as scores are received or are we waiting for all states to report bar scores before we are assigned?

[Patrick Bateman]

Question regarding post-bar, pre active-duty accessions process.

Anyone know if EADs for AFJAG come on a rolling basis as scores are received or are we waiting for all states to report bar scores before we are assigned?

When I came through, assignments and orders were rolling based on date of admission.

[Japaro]

So I've been trying to prep for the OYCP interview in a couple months. One question I have been struggling with is the inevitable "Why AF" and "Why AF JAG" question. It's just a tough question for me to answer in a meaningful way. I don't want to sound generic and answer that my grandfather was in the air force, he was a role model, etc. The "why" isn't so clear yet. Or, at least for me, it may be hard to articulate.

How have y'all brainstormed answers to these questions?

[ubersaurusrex]

So I've been trying to prep for the OYCP interview in a couple months. One question I have been struggling with is the inevitable "Why AF" and "Why AF JAG" question. It's just a tough question for me to answer in a meaningful way. I don't want to sound generic and answer that my grandfather was in the air force, he was a role model, etc. The "why" isn't so clear yet. Or, at least for me, it may be hard to articulate.

How have y'all brainstormed answers to these questions?

I think having a family connection, especially if you can explain why your grandfather was an important role model to you, is a pretty good answer to that question. Being able to talk about the differences in jobs and career progression between the branches, and why the AF is appealing based on that, would also be good.

[howell]

So I've been trying to prep for the OYCP interview in a couple months. One question I have been struggling with is the inevitable "Why AF" and "Why AF JAG" question. It's just a tough question for me to answer in a meaningful way. I don't want to sound generic and answer that my grandfather was in the air force, he was a role model, etc. The "why" isn't so clear yet. Or, at least for me, it may be hard to articulate.

How have y'all brainstormed answers to these questions?

The worst answer is a blank stare (I have seen this). A lot of people will have similar reasons when they answer this question, so don't feel the need to make it anything mind-blowing. Honesty is usually the best approach. Try your answer out with other people to see if they find it consistent or if they have follow-up questions. If you tell me that you have always had an overwhelming desire to serve, but the first time you have ever applied to the Air Force is right now in your mid-twenties, that might not come off as genuine (depending on how it's put across).

But something like this would be fine, depending on how detailed you want to get:

"My grandfather served in the Air Force, and he was a role model to me in so many ways. Watching him instilled the desire to serve in me, but I never knew how that would look for me. When I got to law school, I realized I could use the very skills I was learning to give back."

Then maybe roll into the differences ubersaurusrex listed.

[Japaro]

So I've been trying to prep for the OYCP interview in a couple months. One question I have been struggling with is the inevitable "Why AF" and "Why AF JAG" question. It's just a tough question for me to answer in a meaningful way. I don't want to sound generic and answer that my grandfather was in the air force, he was a role model, etc. The "why" isn't so clear yet. Or, at least for me, it may be hard to articulate.

How have y'all brainstormed answers to these questions?

The worst answer is a blank stare (I have seen this). A lot of people will have similar reasons when they answer this question, so don't feel the need to make it anything mind-blowing. Honesty is usually the best approach. Try your answer out with other people to see if they find it consistent or if they have follow-up questions. If you tell me that you have always had an overwhelming desire to serve, but the first time you have ever applied to the Air Force is right now in your mid-twenties, that might not come off as genuine (depending on how it's put across).

But something like this would be fine, depending on how detailed you want to get:

"My grandfather served in the Air Force, and he was a role model to me in so many ways. Watching him instilled the desire to serve in me, but I never knew how that would look for me. When I got to law school, I realized I could use the very skills I was learning to give back."

Then maybe roll into the differences ubersaurusrex listed.

As per the differences, would you happen to have a link to where I can research that? I suppose this thread would be a great place to start. That's just another question that is tough for me to answer. The family connection part is true for me. But beyond that, I've just heard the AF is better for JAGs overall. But I could add some substance to that, rather than just saying "AF is better."

I appreciate your insight. It's gotten my brain moving, for sure.

[ubersaurusrex]

So I've been trying to prep for the OYCP interview in a couple months. One question I have been struggling with is the inevitable "Why AF" and "Why AF JAG" question. It's just a tough question for me to answer in a meaningful way. I don't want to sound generic and answer that my grandfather was in the air force, he was a role model, etc. The "why" isn't so clear yet. Or, at least for me, it may be hard to articulate.

How have y'all brainstormed answers to these questions?

The worst answer is a blank stare (I have seen this). A lot of people will have similar reasons when they answer this question, so don't feel the need to make it anything mind-blowing. Honesty is usually the best approach. Try your answer out with other people to see if they find it consistent or if they have follow-up questions. If you tell me that you have always had an overwhelming desire to serve, but the first time you have ever applied to the Air Force is right now in your mid-twenties, that might not come off as genuine (depending on how it's put across).

But something like this would be fine, depending on how detailed you want to get:

"My grandfather served in the Air Force, and he was a role model to me in so many ways. Watching him instilled the desire to serve in me, but I never knew how that would look for me. When I got to law school, I realized I could use the very skills I was learning to give back."

Then maybe roll into the differences ubersaurusrex listed.

As per the differences, would you happen to have a link to where I can research that? I suppose this thread would be a great place to start. That's just another question that is tough for me to answer. The family connection part is true for me. But beyond that, I've just heard the AF is better for JAGs overall. But I could add some substance to that, rather than just saying "AF is better."

I appreciate your insight. It's gotten my brain moving, for sure.

Quality of life is a difference, but probably not the best to lead with. This thread, and other resources online, cover the differences in culture and mission between the branches. There are also differences in how each branch structures it's legal offices and new JAG responsibilities. You should be able to find most of that on the JAG recruiting pages. I don't know why you specifically want to be in the Air Force, but that should give you good topics to focus on.

[Anonymous User]

How is everyone doing?

I am currently finishing up my OYCP application. I believe the application is very-well put together, including the LORs. But I do have one HUGE obstacle that I will have to get over applying with any branch: when I was freshly 18, I was arrested for a felony drug possession charge (Penalty Group 1, less than 1 gram). I successfully complete community supervision afterward, and my charge was dismissed, and I got my record expunged. But, I obviously disclose this stuff on my applications.

Obviously, I am not the same man I once was as a teenager. I've been sober even since and haven't looked back. I have great supplements for the application I wrote explaining this situation, as well as my transformation. But I fear that this blemish will put me on the bottom of the pile. I earnestly believe honesty is the best policy, so I'm always forthright with this matter.

I understand the whole person concept. But does this absolutely kill my chances? I do believe becoming a JAG is my life calling. But should I not get my hopes up? Will I be automatically disqualified?

I'm just anxious, obviously. Sorry for the ramble. Thank you.

[ubersaurusrex]

How is everyone doing?

I am currently finishing up my OYCP application. I believe the application is very-well put together, including the LORs. But I do have one HUGE obstacle that I will have to get over applying with any branch: when I was freshly 18, I was arrested for a felony drug possession charge (Penalty Group 1, less than 1 gram). I successfully complete community supervision afterward, and my charge was dismissed, and I got my record expunged. But, I obviously disclose this stuff on my applications.

Obviously, I am not the same man I once was as a teenager. I've been sober even since and haven't looked back. I have great supplements for the application I wrote explaining this situation, as well as my transformation. But I fear that this blemish will put me on the bottom of the pile. I earnestly believe honesty is the best policy, so I'm always forthright with this matter.

I understand the whole person concept. But does this absolutely kill my chances? I do believe becoming a JAG is my life calling. But should I not get my hopes up? Will I be automatically disqualified?

I'm just anxious, obviously. Sorry for the ramble. Thank you.

First, I think you should ask if this is disqualifying to JAG recruiting directly. You can email them here airforcejagrecruiting@gmail.com or message them on Facebook. If it isn't, I don't think this will remove you from consideration or put you at the bottom of the pile. It sounds like you have a good explanation and have grown from the experience. Don't let personal doubts convince you to not apply.

[cfh1523]

Has anyone received a call from the Navy JAG student program Fall 2021 board yet?

[JerseyJag]

I am also a first-term Captain. I'm less salty. Here's my .02:

1. The idea you get work/life harmony or balance or whatever you want to call it in the AF JAG corps is not true. You’ll be working 60-80 hour weeks consistently and be pushing 100 during trials. Don’t plan on being able to take lunch or do basic self care appointments during the week.

This is completely dependent on the base, your leadership, and most importantly your role in the office. The gen law attorneys in my office work 8-4:30, take 1/2 hr lunches, and do not bring work home. I cannot say the same over in MJ. We stay in the office later, do not take lunches, and routinely bring work home on weeknights. I'd say 50-60 hr work weeks are the norm. Do they ramp up around trials? Yes. But I have never encountered an 80-100 hr work week and think this Captain is being a bit dramatic. I understand that the JAG Corps does pitch "work-life balance" but ultimately you're still an attorney and our balance is much, much better here than in firm life.

2. You’ll lose most or all of your cases. We can’t get convictions on sex assaults in most instances and that’s the majority of what you try. Be prepared to work your butt off and then see the dirtbag at the next all-call with a smug smile on his face.

Not wrong! We do a lot of 120 cases with less than stellar evidence and lose a lot of them. Arguing from the other side though- maybe we shouldn't be taking these to trial in the first place! My take is that trial experience is trial experience, win or lose.

Also, most JAGs are brand new attorneys with no courtroom experience. Assuming you fit this criteria, did you really think you were going to win every case? C'mon now.

3. Have 5k+ plus in savings when you commission because you’re not getting paid correctly for several months and no one in finance cares.

Again, not completely wrong. Have a couple thousand tucked away. You most likely won't get paid the full amount while in OTS. I got like $1200 paychecks throughout OTS and received back pay on my first or second paycheck after PCSing to my base.

4. Don’t think you’re working any kind of substantive operational law until you’ve done at least 6 years

Correct. I'm not sure who told him that he'd be in the CAOC immediately but they're wrong. If anything, I'm shocked he thought he'd be working in ops law in the same assignment he graduated OTS and JASOC. Gotta walk before you run.

5. Don’t expect much mentoring. Outside of the instructors at JASOC (who I think do a solid job). Be willing to learn everything on your own.

This is completely what you make of it. JASOC instructors are fantastic mentors but developing mentors is proactive and requires work- just like in the civ world. "Be willing to learn everything on your own." Now you're just being petty lol. If your paralegals aren't showing you the ropes, it might be you.

6. Get ready to do a lot of data entry and document drafting you’d normally have a law clerk or paralegal do.

Yes, I do way more admin work than I want to do. Again, this is true. But I also get to train at CATM, brief CC's, and get paid to exercise. Take the good with the bad, it's not a normal lawyer gig.

7. You’ll 100% feel proud every morning putting on the uniform knowing you’re serving honorably and doing your duty.

Facts.

Ultimately, nothing in their post is unfounded. Like all jobs, there are definitely negatives to being a JAG. I just suspect that we caught this Captain on a particularly bad day.

[Anonymous User]

When do we anticipate Army/AF to release their results? Any hope that it will be before Thanksgiving?

[Anonymous User]

Well, according to this thread, last year's Army's results came out around November 17, and Air Force around December 1. But, the Army sent out that email that we should hear results by December. Hopefully, we will hear soon!

[Anonymous User]

Hi all. Wondering if anyone has any insight into the Coast Guard SELSRES DCL program for somebody with no prior service. Currently a 2L at a decent law school on law review/moot court. Worked as a big law summer associate and have done a JAG externship. Will be working as a big law summer associate again at a different firm (V10). Reached out to the the JAG accessions team a few weeks ago just to get a sense of the application process, but have not gotten a reply back yet, even with followups.

Would love to get a sense of how competitive this is (understand that it recently started) and what exactly the application process is so I can start working on having a strong application. Thank you.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone hear from Army, Air Force, or Navy yet?

[Anonymous User]

No, haven't heard from Army. In their email confirming receipt of my application they said they hoped to get back mid-December.

[OneHopefulAttorney]

Longtime lurker here, and super grateful for this thread. Can any current or former JAG officers help with a question I have not seen answered?

I am a civilian attorney with a few years experience, and just finished a clerkship. I have saved some money and want to spend a couple months volunteering at a base legal office before starting my next job.

Many posts in this thread say that base legal offices are often overworked, and I thought that as a practicing lawyer I could offer some value as a volunteer. (My initial thought was that I could field legal assistance requests from enlisted personnel.) The experience could also be valuable both for me and for the JAG Corps to see if I am a good fit to apply for a commission.

In what ways might a temporary volunteer civilian lawyer be helpful in a base legal office? How should I go about trying to locate a base legal office to volunteer? Who should I talk to? Thanks!

[Anonymous User]

Longtime lurker here, and super grateful for this thread. Can any current or former JAG officers help with a question I have not seen answered?

I am a civilian attorney with a few years experience, and just finished a clerkship. I have saved some money and want to spend a couple months volunteering at a base legal office before starting my next job.

Many posts in this thread say that base legal offices are often overworked, and I thought that as a practicing lawyer I could offer some value as a volunteer. (My initial thought was that I could field legal assistance requests from enlisted personnel.) The experience could also be valuable both for me and for the JAG Corps to see if I am a good fit to apply for a commission.

In what ways might a temporary volunteer civilian lawyer be helpful in a base legal office? How should I go about trying to locate a base legal office to volunteer? Who should I talk to? Thanks!

Hi - I'll chime in here. I love the motivation, but it's highly unlikely that they would bring in a civilian lawyer as a volunteer. They do have civilians working as attorneys in most military legal offices (you can apply via usajobs.gov if interested), but they usually don't allow volunteers. You can try and call/email an office to see if they are willing to take on a volunteer, but I wouldn't get your hopes up. As many prior/current interns can attest - you have to go through a background check and complete some forms/certs before onboarding. The military won't allow just anyone on base to work (even if you're an experienced attorney). I highly encourage you to apply to the JAGC if you're interested - or you can find a POC on any JAGC application website and chat with a JAG to get some insight into the day to day of a judge advocate. The information on this page from prior/current judge advocates is also quite insightful. I recommend reading the thread in its entirety! Best of luck.

[Anonymous User]

I may be speculating here but the Air Force application now says "no active application" where it used to say when the DAP Board was meeting. Does anyone else's say that? I wonder if that means if results are coming out soon, or if that means I didn't get it

[Anonymous User]

I may be speculating here but the Air Force application now says "no active application" where it used to say when the DAP Board was meeting. Does anyone else's say that? I wonder if that means if results are coming out soon, or if that means I didn't get it

Mine changed like that too in the website, and got a call from AF yesterday! Seems like they might be calling people soon. Good luck to everyone!!!

[Patrick Bateman]

Longtime lurker here, and super grateful for this thread. Can any current or former JAG officers help with a question I have not seen answered?

I am a civilian attorney with a few years experience, and just finished a clerkship. I have saved some money and want to spend a couple months volunteering at a base legal office before starting my next job.

Many posts in this thread say that base legal offices are often overworked, and I thought that as a practicing lawyer I could offer some value as a volunteer. (My initial thought was that I could field legal assistance requests from enlisted personnel.) The experience could also be valuable both for me and for the JAG Corps to see if I am a good fit to apply for a commission.

In what ways might a temporary volunteer civilian lawyer be helpful in a base legal office? How should I go about trying to locate a base legal office to volunteer? Who should I talk to? Thanks!

Your first step is just contacting whatever base legal office you would want to volunteer at - you’ll talk to whomever is manning the front desk and will ultimately want to see about talking to the Deputy SJA or SJA about their interest/ability to support.

I have no idea how getting your NIPR and other network access would work (this represents the most significant potential LIMFAC in my mind) but I know I have seen a few folks volunteer over the years but I cannot comment on how the logistics were handled.