Military Law Forum

[Anonymous User]

Recent National Guard select here. I'm curious to hear from any ARNG or Army Reserve folks about how much time one should spend in their first unit assignment before expressing interest in an active duty mobilization? Of course, my first priority is going to be performing well and diligently in whatever role I am assigned, but for career development purposes, I do think it would be valuable to volunteer for a mobilization - whether it be as an augmentee to a deploying unit or even a CONUS based active duty assignment. However, I want to be sure not to give off the impression like I just want to get on board and then forget about my primary assignment by volunteering for something. If its best to simply do my job in NG at whatever unit I'm assigned and sit tight for my state's unit to deploy, then so be it. I would just be curious to hear from someone who got the go ahead to volunteer for something outside of their assigned unit and how that went. Thanks all.

[Anonymous User]

I've been accepted into the Navy and Army JAG and wrapping up my documents for both (still undecided).

My long-term goals are to (1) be overseas (2) be in the courtroom (3) to eventually transition into a State Dept/DOJ Overseas Attache (ideally).

Can anyone give me some insight? I've talked to ex-JAGs of both services, but I get kind of wishy-washy answers. My main concern is Navy's two-year rotation where there's a lot of hand holding and taking it slow (maybe that's good). I haven't read anything like that for the Army (possible and probable). Anyway, if there's any anecdotal advice anyone can provide, it'd be much appreciated. I'm leaning Army right now for no real articulable reason.

I'm an ex-Army officer (not JAG) now going Navy JAG, so I have some sense of this, but take it with a grain of salt.

1) What do you mean by overseas? You want to deploy? If so, go Army. The opportunities to deploy are much more plentiful, and it's more a part of the Army's culture. Officers in the Army without a combat patch definitely have a credibility problem past a certain point. 2) I think the Navy probably gives you more opportunities to litigate, since a not of non-litigation stuff is handled by DoN civilians. But the Navy is also much smaller, so YMMV. As for 3) I have no idea.

I am going to have to respectfully disagree. I am a current Navy jag on active duty.

I am going to be completely honest with you, I wont try to sell you a pack of lies to make my job/service seem awesome, or to recruit you... the Navy is not a good place to be an attorney if you expect to professionally develop yourself, and become a better lawyer. The attorneys that stay in the Navy Jag Corps long term are shit attorney's; they aren't good litigators, their legal writing is garbage, and they become farther and farther removed from the real world law, and become wrapped up and engulfed in military bureaucracy, aka idiocy.

The two year FTJA program is a joke. The Navy is NOT the place to be to become a litigator or get any semblance of litigation experience; this is a lie that continues to be propagated . . . some how, and honestly the how is beyond me. The two year mandatory "internship" PROHIBITS me from getting into the courtroom but only one time for a small plea, which is essentially a five minute argument on sentencing, and MAYBE second chair ONCE on a super shitty misdemeanor level trial for something stupid like a marijuana pop or something. That puts me a FULL TWO years behind all of my other law school peers. After that two years I am basically starting at square one. I personally know attorneys who have been in the Jag Corps over a decade and have one or two super small trials, if that, and no motion writing/litigation experience. By the way, they don't make exceptions for exceptional lawyers either, with some rare exception for attorneys who practiced before the jag corps.

Aside from this two year courtroom moratorium, the case volume in the jag corps is super low, with low level stuff. I'm talking mostly low level domestic violence, shit sexual assaults, and a lot of special court martial drug pops. All of the good stuff the state takes, or the AUSA takes it, we get the scraps. The other jag corps positions are shit too. You're either doing wills all day for retirees, or helping some stupid E2 with a 40K Beamer he can't afford, or dealing with petty command bull shit at the SJA's office, like fund raising requests, DUI's etc. .

The ONLY thing good about my job is my pay is pretty good, and the benefits are good. I out earn most of my law school colleagues, for now. In about 10 years they will all surpass me. Additionally I get tax benefits, and I hardly work at all. Even the attorneys who have been in for years and years have these shit cases, so what do you think gets assigned to the people with five years or less? Even shittier cases, low level simple menial crap. The benefit of which is that I burn through my "work" super fast and I get A LOT of off time. So "work" life balance is awesome.

Good pay and hardly any real work to do is great in the short term, but like I said, I am not getting better as an attorney, and in the long run I will be far behind my peers professionally. I never thought professional development would be a gripe of mine, who the hell complains to get paid and sit around doing nothing?; but I am literally wasting my degree, talent, and intelligence on this organization, for nothing. Once I get out and get a real job I am going to be LOST; worse off even than a brand new lawyer because at least for them the black letter law will be fresh in their heads from the bar.

My advice, steer clear of the Navy Jag Corps for now. We seem to be going through a transition period right now with this FTJA program, and we will be in a world of trouble for about the next decade until whatever dumb ass who implemented it is retired, so that we can be free to also retire this stupid plan. I can't speak for the other branches, although I know Marines get real experience right out of the gate still, and the coast guard does too.

You've been warned.

I know this is an old post, but I wanted to share my experience.

I went through the Navy FTJA program and actually thought it was a decent experience. Did I do staff SJA work that I didn't want to do for 6 months? Yes. But that was 25% of the tour before I was able to go to criminal law and work on a domestic violence case and do a guilty plea on a child pornography case. I did legal assistance for 6 months too - wills, shady car dealers, etc. Wasn't that bad either - learned local state law and got to help a bunch of people.

THEN, second tour -- after realizing I enjoyed criminal law and the other stuff -- the Navy sent me to a busy litigation office where I did about 10 contested jury trials. The above poster complained about the "quality" of the cases. I represented a Navy SEAL facing 20+ years for sexual assault. I got to learn a ton about the SEAL community while driving in Coronado, CA a bunch. Yeah, I wasn't representing Fortune 500 companies, but I thought it was an interesting experience.

Third tour was my favorite - I got to do appellate work where I honed my legal writing skills and helped some guys out on appeal (even got one guy's sexual assault conviction reversed).

Also, the Navy has a military justice litigation career track, meaning if you are competent at trying cases during your second tour, you will be allowed to ONLY do military justice assignments the remainder of your Navy career - including trial judge, appellate judge eventually.

And finally, this has probably already been posted, but right now, Navy is rethinking FTJA program and considering getting rid of it altogether. They are also thinking of going back to the "old" model of having Trial Service Offices and Defense Service Offices for the litigators.

Let me know if anyone has any questions. I'm not a recruiter for this organization, and believe me, I have plenty of gripes. But it's good to hear multiple perspectives.

[Anonymous User]

Just went through my third AF interview. I had done the prior two at a base and felt like maybe I wasn't hitting it off with the interviewer. Switched bases for this time and it (appears) to have made a huge difference. The interviewer told me he was going to advocate for me and that I was very competitive. Hoping to get it this time around. Anyone else applying this go around?

[THISISFORREADINGONLY]

Just went through my third AF interview. I had done the prior two at a base and felt like maybe I wasn't hitting it off with the interviewer. Switched bases for this time and it (appears) to have made a huge difference. The interviewer told me he was going to advocate for me and that I was very competitive. Hoping to get it this time around. Anyone else applying this go around?

I am applying for AF JAG for the 4th time (GLP failed + 2 failed DAP applications) this round.

[Anonymous User]

Just went through my third AF interview. I had done the prior two at a base and felt like maybe I wasn't hitting it off with the interviewer. Switched bases for this time and it (appears) to have made a huge difference. The interviewer told me he was going to advocate for me and that I was very competitive. Hoping to get it this time around. Anyone else applying this go around?

I am applying for AF JAG for the 4th time (GLP failed + 2 failed DAP applications) this round.

This is my second time applying for AF JAG as well. I feel like the first interview (DAP student) went way better than this one (DAP licensed attorney).

This interviewer kept repeating some of my responses as if she didn’t believe I was being truthful or if she was looking for another answer. I tried to elaborate further hoping that my answers where to her satisfaction.

It also seemed like she was not prepared to do the interview and she was winging it. Some of the questions she asked made no sense to me.

[Str1genz]

Hey all,

I'm applying for JAG with the Navy, Army, and Air Force, and I was wondering if anyone had some advice/was willing to comment on my chances.

Median GPA at a T20
3.7 uGPA
Lots of extracurricular involvement (SBA, Ed board on a journal)
No law review, but staff editor for two other journals
Volunteer part-time with the VA
Clinic-experience
Judicial internship
LSAT 167

No prior military experience
No prior drug use
No arrests (just some speeding tickets)
Only speak English

My interview with the Army FSO is next week. Do any of you have advice or tips going in? What kind of questions can I expect? And should I leave out the fact that I'm applying to other branches? Or do they care?

[Str1genz]

Hey all,

I'm applying for JAG with the Navy, Army, and Air Force, and I was wondering if anyone had some advice/was willing to comment on my chances.

Median GPA at a T20
3.7 uGPA
Lots of extracurricular involvement (SBA, Ed board on a journal)
No law review, but staff editor for two other journals
Volunteer part-time with the VA
Clinic-experience
Judicial internship
LSAT 167

No prior military experience
No prior drug use
No arrests (just some speeding tickets)
Only speak English

My interview with the Army FSO is next week. Do any of you have advice or tips going in? What kind of questions can I expect? And should I leave out the fact that I'm applying to other branches? Or do they care?

I thought I'd also mention that I have a strong public service background, with lots of volunteering with different organizations. My main worry is that I have no experience with the military (outside of having many family and friends who have served--which is the case for everyone), so I'm worried they're going to think I'm just applying as 3L looking for a job. The truth is I really want to join, and almost joined the Marines after college instead of going to law school. I just have no idea how to convey that in a way that they'll believe.

[thriller1122]

Hey all,

I'm applying for JAG with the Navy, Army, and Air Force, and I was wondering if anyone had some advice/was willing to comment on my chances.

Median GPA at a T20
3.7 uGPA
Lots of extracurricular involvement (SBA, Ed board on a journal)
No law review, but staff editor for two other journals
Volunteer part-time with the VA
Clinic-experience
Judicial internship
LSAT 167

No prior military experience
No prior drug use
No arrests (just some speeding tickets)
Only speak English

My interview with the Army FSO is next week. Do any of you have advice or tips going in? What kind of questions can I expect? And should I leave out the fact that I'm applying to other branches? Or do they care?

I thought I'd also mention that I have a strong public service background, with lots of volunteering with different organizations. My main worry is that I have no experience with the military (outside of having many family and friends who have served--which is the case for everyone), so I'm worried they're going to think I'm just applying as 3L looking for a job. The truth is I really want to join, and almost joined the Marines after college instead of going to law school. I just have no idea how to convey that in a way that they'll believe.

Nothing glaring from what you posted. You did fine in law school at a good school, no prior drug use is a very good thing. Make sure you are squared away physically. I would have an answer to what your workout routine looks like.

As far as advice, all branches are looking for squared away individuals who are ready to be leaders. Anything you can do to show leadership experience or potential for leadership is going to help you. Probably the biggest difference between becoming an associate and becoming a JAG is where you will rank on the totem pole and what will be expected from you. While you will technically be a new hire, an O-2 is a leader. You immediately outrank all enlisted members and are expected to lead them. Make sure you highlight that aspect of yourself. Lastly, it's not going to matter at all that you don't have any military experience or connections. I mean, an internship would have helped you, but the military takes people everyday that have absolutely no experience with uniformed service. The military is a little unique in that they really don't care what you've done (unless it is a bar to service), they care what you will do. Show them that you are committed and you should have a really good chance. Best of luck! (P.S. have you looked into the Coast Guard?)

[Patrick Bateman]

Hey all,

I'm applying for JAG with the Navy, Army, and Air Force, and I was wondering if anyone had some advice/was willing to comment on my chances.

Median GPA at a T20
3.7 uGPA
Lots of extracurricular involvement (SBA, Ed board on a journal)
No law review, but staff editor for two other journals
Volunteer part-time with the VA
Clinic-experience
Judicial internship
LSAT 167

No prior military experience
No prior drug use
No arrests (just some speeding tickets)
Only speak English

My interview with the Army FSO is next week. Do any of you have advice or tips going in? What kind of questions can I expect? And should I leave out the fact that I'm applying to other branches? Or do they care?

I thought I'd also mention that I have a strong public service background, with lots of volunteering with different organizations. My main worry is that I have no experience with the military (outside of having many family and friends who have served--which is the case for everyone), so I'm worried they're going to think I'm just applying as 3L looking for a job. The truth is I really want to join, and almost joined the Marines after college instead of going to law school. I just have no idea how to convey that in a way that they'll believe.

I'll weigh in from the USAF perspective.

I think Thriller above offers solid analysis - good points all around there. I agree that on paper you will be competitive.

I have no idea how the other services handle things but the USAF interview is hugely important. If you want to learn more about the USAF DAP interview, dig through the thread. A few of us have posted over the years as to the questions generally covered. As I have noted in some of my posts, work on your answer as to why you want to serve generally and why you want to serve in the Air Force (vice USN/USA/USMC). That answer does not require having prior service - find a way to describe what is motivating you personally.

[Str1genz]

Hey all,

I'm applying for JAG with the Navy, Army, and Air Force, and I was wondering if anyone had some advice/was willing to comment on my chances.

Median GPA at a T20
3.7 uGPA
Lots of extracurricular involvement (SBA, Ed board on a journal)
No law review, but staff editor for two other journals
Volunteer part-time with the VA
Clinic-experience
Judicial internship
LSAT 167

No prior military experience
No prior drug use
No arrests (just some speeding tickets)
Only speak English

My interview with the Army FSO is next week. Do any of you have advice or tips going in? What kind of questions can I expect? And should I leave out the fact that I'm applying to other branches? Or do they care?

I thought I'd also mention that I have a strong public service background, with lots of volunteering with different organizations. My main worry is that I have no experience with the military (outside of having many family and friends who have served--which is the case for everyone), so I'm worried they're going to think I'm just applying as 3L looking for a job. The truth is I really want to join, and almost joined the Marines after college instead of going to law school. I just have no idea how to convey that in a way that they'll believe.

Nothing glaring from what you posted. You did fine in law school at a good school, no prior drug use is a very good thing. Make sure you are squared away physically. I would have an answer to what your workout routine looks like.

As far as advice, all branches are looking for squared away individuals who are ready to be leaders. Anything you can do to show leadership experience or potential for leadership is going to help you. Probably the biggest difference between becoming an associate and becoming a JAG is where you will rank on the totem pole and what will be expected from you. While you will technically be a new hire, an O-2 is a leader. You immediately outrank all enlisted members and are expected to lead them. Make sure you highlight that aspect of yourself. Lastly, it's not going to matter at all that you don't have any military experience or connections. I mean, an internship would have helped you, but the military takes people everyday that have absolutely no experience with uniformed service. The military is a little unique in that they really don't care what you've done (unless it is a bar to service), they care what you will do. Show them that you are committed and you should have a really good chance. Best of luck! (P.S. have you looked into the Coast Guard?)

Thanks for the advice. This is all really great.

I actually am considering the Coast Guard as well. I have a phone interview with a CGDCL later today. But my understanding is that the CG's DCL program is very small and has financial obligations that I'm unsure I'd be able to meet, insofar as I am graduating law school with heavy debt (maybe that's something I could obtain a waiver for? Maybe I'll ask about that later today).

[Str1genz]

Hey all,

I'm applying for JAG with the Navy, Army, and Air Force, and I was wondering if anyone had some advice/was willing to comment on my chances.

Median GPA at a T20
3.7 uGPA
Lots of extracurricular involvement (SBA, Ed board on a journal)
No law review, but staff editor for two other journals
Volunteer part-time with the VA
Clinic-experience
Judicial internship
LSAT 167

No prior military experience
No prior drug use
No arrests (just some speeding tickets)
Only speak English

My interview with the Army FSO is next week. Do any of you have advice or tips going in? What kind of questions can I expect? And should I leave out the fact that I'm applying to other branches? Or do they care?

I thought I'd also mention that I have a strong public service background, with lots of volunteering with different organizations. My main worry is that I have no experience with the military (outside of having many family and friends who have served--which is the case for everyone), so I'm worried they're going to think I'm just applying as 3L looking for a job. The truth is I really want to join, and almost joined the Marines after college instead of going to law school. I just have no idea how to convey that in a way that they'll believe.

I'll weigh in from the USAF perspective.

I think Thriller above offers solid analysis - good points all around there. I agree that on paper you will be competitive.

I have no idea how the other services handle things but the USAF interview is hugely important. If you want to learn more about the USAF DAP interview, dig through the thread. A few of us have posted over the years as to the questions generally covered. As I have noted in some of my posts, work on your answer as to why you want to serve generally and why you want to serve in the Air Force (vice USN/USA/USMC). That answer does not require having prior service - find a way to describe what is motivating you personally.

Yeah I've dug around this thread and found some nice advice about the USAF's DAP interview. I just haven't been able to schedule that yet because they ask for FIVE letters of rec (Who does that? )

[Anonymous User]

I actually am considering the Coast Guard as well. I have a phone interview with a CGDCL later today. But my understanding is that the CG's DCL program is very small and has financial obligations that I'm unsure I'd be able to meet, insofar as I am graduating law school with heavy debt (maybe that's something I could obtain a waiver for? Maybe I'll ask about that later today).

AFAIK nobody has issues with this for USCG as long as its normal law school debt and it'll be manageable with PAYE.

[usn26]

I actually am considering the Coast Guard as well. I have a phone interview with a CGDCL later today. But my understanding is that the CG's DCL program is very small and has financial obligations that I'm unsure I'd be able to meet, insofar as I am graduating law school with heavy debt (maybe that's something I could obtain a waiver for? Maybe I'll ask about that later today).

AFAIK nobody has issues with this for USCG as long as its normal law school debt and it'll be manageable with PAYE.

accidental anon

[Anonymous User]

Just went through my third AF interview. I had done the prior two at a base and felt like maybe I wasn't hitting it off with the interviewer. Switched bases for this time and it (appears) to have made a huge difference. The interviewer told me he was going to advocate for me and that I was very competitive. Hoping to get it this time around. Anyone else applying this go around?

I am applying for AF JAG for the 4th time (GLP failed + 2 failed DAP applications) this round.

This is my second time applying for AF JAG as well. I feel like the first interview (DAP student) went way better than this one (DAP licensed attorney).

This interviewer kept repeating some of my responses as if she didn’t believe I was being truthful or if she was looking for another answer. I tried to elaborate further hoping that my answers where to her satisfaction.

It also seemed like she was not prepared to do the interview and she was winging it. Some of the questions she asked made no sense to me.

I'm applying for the third time. My GLP and OYCP applications were rejected. I didn't feel great about either interview. Neither of interviewers seemed to know much about what was in my application, and one of them talked about himself for two hours straight. This is my first DAP application, and I interviewed with the SJA at a deployed location. This SJA knew my application forwards and backwards, and I feel like it went well. He even talked me through some adjustments to my application to get over some hurdles I have to being accepted. We'll see.

[Anonymous User]

After waiting so long and an email from JARO telling me I was missing things, I finally got my DODMERB determination which was a disqualification for a history of mood disorders.

The waiver process is my only hope right now I assume and, after reading some of the old posts on waivers (as far back as 2014), I just want to know if anyone now has Army waiver insight.

I had depression/anxiety and was on medication for about a year and was in counseling during two academic years at a university health center. It was all a result of home life and immaturity that comes from being 18-20 and getting used to being on your own. Everything improved once I moved away from my hometown permanently and I haven't gone to counseling or used meds since 2016 (I have a visit in September 2019 for administrative reasons because I never returned to the center and wanted an official end). Are individual session notes too much to include? Do I just need to submit the summary of treatment and letters of support and my explanations??

Any advice anyone has would be helpful because I want to be on top of this rather than racing to get things together.

[THISISFORREADINGONLY]

Are we feeling AF Sep DAP Board results this week? Yay or nay?

[thriller1122]

Are we feeling AF Sep DAP Board results this week? Yay or nay?

Idk, I feel like it has to be next week. This seems like it would be the right week, but the 14th or 15th just seems too early. Especially if the pandemic affects anything. Im going with Monday the 21st (my birthday coincidently).

[Anonymous User]

Are we feeling AF Sep DAP Board results this week? Yay or nay?

Idk, I feel like it has to be next week. This seems like it would be the right week, but the 14th or 15th just seems too early. Especially if the pandemic affects anything. Im going with Monday the 21st (my birthday coincidently).

I’m thinking next week too. However, I am hoping that the results will come out this week. I am not sure if the new chief of recruiting will give individual applicant feedback before the deadline in October if reapplying is necessary.

I would not want to resubmit the same application for the next board if there are improvements that need to be made such as the interview etc.

[THISISFORREADINGONLY]

Are we feeling AF Sep DAP Board results this week? Yay or nay?

Idk, I feel like it has to be next week. This seems like it would be the right week, but the 14th or 15th just seems too early. Especially if the pandemic affects anything. Im going with Monday the 21st (my birthday coincidently).

I’m thinking next week too. However, I am hoping that the results will come out this week. I am not sure if the new chief of recruiting will give individual applicant feedback before the deadline in October if reapplying is necessary.

I would not want to resubmit the same application for the next board if there are improvements that need to be made such as the interview etc.

In my experience, the chief of recruiting will not be willing to give you any advice about your interview. They twice refused to give me any advice about whether it would be in my interest to do a new one or not.

[Anonymous User]

Are we feeling AF Sep DAP Board results this week? Yay or nay?

Idk, I feel like it has to be next week. This seems like it would be the right week, but the 14th or 15th just seems too early. Especially if the pandemic affects anything. Im going with Monday the 21st (my birthday coincidently).

I’m thinking next week too. However, I am hoping that the results will come out this week. I am not sure if the new chief of recruiting will give individual applicant feedback before the deadline in October if reapplying is necessary.

I would not want to resubmit the same application for the next board if there are improvements that need to be made such as the interview etc.

In my experience, the chief of recruiting will not be willing to give you any advice about your interview. They twice refused to give me any advice about whether it would be in my interest to do a new one or not.

The former chief of recruiting did. After results came out, the former chief of recruiting allowed the applicants who were not selected to call and speak with him about improving their applications.

The first time I applied I called and spoke to him. He told me what areas needed improvement and what areas where already strong.

[Anonymous User]

Are we feeling AF Sep DAP Board results this week? Yay or nay?

Idk, I feel like it has to be next week. This seems like it would be the right week, but the 14th or 15th just seems too early. Especially if the pandemic affects anything. Im going with Monday the 21st (my birthday coincidently).

I’m thinking next week too. However, I am hoping that the results will come out this week. I am not sure if the new chief of recruiting will give individual applicant feedback before the deadline in October if reapplying is necessary.

I would not want to resubmit the same application for the next board if there are improvements that need to be made such as the interview etc.

In my experience, the chief of recruiting will not be willing to give you any advice about your interview. They twice refused to give me any advice about whether it would be in my interest to do a new one or not.

The former chief of recruiting did. After results came out, the former chief of recruiting allowed the applicants who were not selected to call and speak with him about improving their applications.

The first time I applied I called and spoke to him. He told me what areas needed improvement and what areas where already strong.

My understanding was that the Chief would not do that after the September board. I did it after the November board last year and after the Spring board. But last year after the September board results were released the email said there would be no opportunity for feedback prior to the November board. Maybe that was a one time thing though.

[thriller1122]

It's gotta be the week for AF, right?

[Legalbeagle4]

I got the call for Air Force JAG!

[Anonymous User]

I got the call for Air Force JAG!

AWESOME! Congrats! Had you applied before? Were you expecting to make it? Sorry for the questions but I, like many on this site, am eager to compare myself against a selectee. Any information you care to provide would be greatly appreciated. Congrats again.

[Anonymous User]

Just got the call for AF!