Military Law Forum

[Patrick Bateman]

I'm wondering about current deployment times for JAG in Army/AF Reserve or Guard. Anyone with any current information would be appreciated

If by "times" you mean the duration of the deployment - AF Reserve is the same as the RegAF with 179s and 365s. Right now deployment opportunities are shrinking considerably - you will have to be lucky to land a Reserve deployment these days.

[Asilvaesq]

I'm wondering about current deployment times for JAG in Army/AF Reserve or Guard. Anyone with any current information would be appreciated

If by "times" you mean the duration of the deployment - AF Reserve is the same as the RegAF with 179s and 365s. Right now deployment opportunities are shrinking considerably - you will have to be lucky to land a Reserve deployment these days.

Yes, I meant duration. Thanks for the response.

[JCDante]

I am currently 3 years enlisted (about to reenlist for 4 years for Hawaii) in the Army as an E5 and with my bachelor's degree. Based on my situation, I am wondering if I would be a better fit for Army JAG or Air Force JAG.

For Army JAG, the plan would be to go to Hawaii and acquire some NCOERs (since I just became a NCO). After a couple of years, I would apply to FLEP (they just opened it up to Army enlisted).

Alternatively, I leave the military after 7 years and attend law school on the GI Bill. I would then apply for a direct commission for Air Force JAG.

My only issue is the difference in cultures between the branches. I have heard some negative things about the Army JAG Corps - mainly due to the "hooah" attitude. And I get it - being in a support MOS, I used to be one of those people. It's only recently that I've had a change of mindset and I like the Army stuff now - esprit de corps and all that. But I also want to be the best JAG Officer possible, and I heard the Air Force generally utilizes their JAG personnel better than the Army does.

Between the two branches, I am mainly concerned about:

1.) Overseas assignments (I've only deployed once and I want to get in as many as possible - as well as anything else far from the stateside military).

2.) Comradery (I know it won't be the same being enlisted vs officer, but I worry about the comments I have heard about the Air Force feeling more like corporate life, which I left for a reason).

3.) Becoming the best possible JAG Officer (this is where I believe the Army makes a mistake in retaining people - they say Soldier first, but it really gets in the way of some people learning and mastering their jobs. I know the Air Force does a lot better job of developing personnel in their profession. Regardless, I know after Captain you just manage the junior JAGs, which is fine too - but I wonder if the Air Force does even that better due to the way their command structure works - poor big Army makes life at the company level very frustrating due to the good idea fairies up at the Battalion and Brigade level)

4.) What to do after 20 years (I am a strong believer that you need to leave and make room for future NCOs and Officers after 20 years - that is coming from the intent of Congress. But as probably an O4/O5 generalist in a JAG slot, what do you do? I would be in my mid-40s - but I have to work. I don't have to be a lawyer at that point, but I need to do something of substance).

I know that's a lot, and obviously you can't have it all - but if anybody happens to have an intimate understanding of the differences between Army and Air Force JAGs, thanks in advance!

[Patrick Bateman]

I am currently 3 years enlisted (about to reenlist for 4 years for Hawaii) in the Army as an E5 and with my bachelor's degree. Based on my situation, I am wondering if I would be a better fit for Army JAG or Air Force JAG.

For Army JAG, the plan would be to go to Hawaii and acquire some NCOERs (since I just became a NCO). After a couple of years, I would apply to FLEP (they just opened it up to Army enlisted).

Alternatively, I leave the military after 7 years and attend law school on the GI Bill. I would then apply for a direct commission for Air Force JAG.

My only issue is the difference in cultures between the branches. I have heard some negative things about the Army JAG Corps - mainly due to the "hooah" attitude. And I get it - being in a support MOS, I used to be one of those people. It's only recently that I've had a change of mindset and I like the Army stuff now - esprit de corps and all that. But I also want to be the best JAG Officer possible, and I heard the Air Force generally utilizes their JAG personnel better than the Army does.

Between the two branches, I am mainly concerned about:

1.) Overseas assignments (I've only deployed once and I want to get in as many as possible - as well as anything else far from the stateside military).

2.) Comradery (I know it won't be the same being enlisted vs officer, but I worry about the comments I have heard about the Air Force feeling more like corporate life, which I left for a reason).

3.) Becoming the best possible JAG Officer (this is where I believe the Army makes a mistake in retaining people - they say Soldier first, but it really gets in the way of some people learning and mastering their jobs. I know the Air Force does a lot better job of developing personnel in their profession. Regardless, I know after Captain you just manage the junior JAGs, which is fine too - but I wonder if the Air Force does even that better due to the way their command structure works - poor big Army makes life at the company level very frustrating due to the good idea fairies up at the Battalion and Brigade level)

4.) What to do after 20 years (I am a strong believer that you need to leave and make room for future NCOs and Officers after 20 years - that is coming from the intent of Congress. But as probably an O4/O5 generalist in a JAG slot, what do you do? I would be in my mid-40s - but I have to work. I don't have to be a lawyer at that point, but I need to do something of substance).

I know that's a lot, and obviously you can't have it all - but if anybody happens to have an intimate understanding of the differences between Army and Air Force JAGs, thanks in advance!

This indeed a lot. I'll give you some USAF insight on the questions you pose. I am not sure anyone outside of someone that practiced as a JAG in both the Army and Air Force can really compare/contrast like you are asking - and even then I would be cautious with that because one experience does not fit all. I have some very different experiences between assignments and rank within the same USAF.

Overseas: We have a number of installations in Europe and the IndoPacific. You can look those up. They are obviously high in demand so it is a roll of the dice if you are lucky to land one as a first assignment JAG. Volunteering for Kunsan AB in Korea for your second assignment might get you more traction and then allow for a follow on assignment in your geographic area of preference in Europe/Pacific.

Deployments, as I posted recently, are much fewer than during the bad ol days in the aughts and early 2010s. There are opportunities for first/second assignment deployments for sure but not guaranteed.

Comradery: Yes. Whatever anecdotal stuff you may be relying on in terms of the AF being "corporate" and therefore not conducive to comradery is not accurate. I am still extremely close friends with my JASOC buddies from 12 years ago and all the assignments since.

Best Possible JAG Officer: I really don't understand what you are getting at here. Shit rolls down hill for us just like the Army. We have HHQ JAGs at the NAF/MAJCOM/Air Staff levels, just like the Army might at the Division/Corps/etc level. Some of the folks up top are excellent. Others are not. Welcome to any other large hierarchical structure.

What to do after 20: That is really outside the scope of this thread to the degree anyone can answer this. It depends on what you end up being good at, what you can specialize in, and what you actually want to do when you get out. Retired JAGs go into practice practice, hang a shingle, work for the Federal government at varying levels, move to a low cost of living area and drink beer all day, etc. The smart people work to develop expertise while on active duty to enable a smooth transition when they do retire (e.g., becoming a military judge in order to develop a resume that would make one marketable to become an Immigration Judge or ALJ when they retire).

[JCDante]

Ok, great! This is all good stuff. I think either branch sounds good then - it will be Army if I do FLEP, but if I get out and go the GI Bill route, I will likely just apply to the Army and Air Force and see what happens.

By any chance, have you heard of anybody making Reserve JAG work with a civilian career? The Reserves and Guard have a bad name with interfering with civilian careers unless you are in government, shift work, or defense contracting. I was also considering working at a DA's office and doing Army Reserve JAG on the side - of course, coming from Active Duty, I am biased toward being a full-time, but who knows if the grass is greener.

[howell]

Ok, great! This is all good stuff. I think either branch sounds good then - it will be Army if I do FLEP, but if I get out and go the GI Bill route, I will likely just apply to the Army and Air Force and see what happens.

That sounds like a good plan.

By any chance, have you heard of anybody making Reserve JAG work with a civilian career? The Reserves and Guard have a bad name with interfering with civilian careers unless you are in government, shift work, or defense contracting. I was also considering working at a DA's office and doing Army Reserve JAG on the side - of course, coming from Active Duty, I am biased toward being a full-time, but who knows if the grass is greener.

Being an Air Force Reserve JAG will work well with most careers. You almost assuredly will never deploy, and you only have to provide the minimum amount of time. Government jobs usually provide some number of paid days off for military leave. There are even JAGs in the Reserves at large law firms.

The worst part is that the Air Force will still "PCS" you every 3-4 years as a Reservist. So you might start by drilling in your home state, but you could be forced to drill at a base a few states away next time. They try to work with you, and most people seem to handle it okay. I'm in the Guard, so I will never have to leave the state.

I think the Army might be more challenging to integrate with civilian practice. I know in our state, the Army Guard JAGs are at least strongly encouraged to deploy. Those of us on the Air Guard side will likely never be allowed to deploy. I'm not sure if the Army Reserves is the same way.

The intent of the Reserve Components is to allow for this, but it's worth finding people who have done what you think you might want to do so you know how they handled it.

[Anonymous User]

Ok, great! This is all good stuff. I think either branch sounds good then - it will be Army if I do FLEP, but if I get out and go the GI Bill route, I will likely just apply to the Army and Air Force and see what happens.

That sounds like a good plan.

By any chance, have you heard of anybody making Reserve JAG work with a civilian career? The Reserves and Guard have a bad name with interfering with civilian careers unless you are in government, shift work, or defense contracting. I was also considering working at a DA's office and doing Army Reserve JAG on the side - of course, coming from Active Duty, I am biased toward being a full-time, but who knows if the grass is greener.

Being an Air Force Reserve JAG will work well with most careers. You almost assuredly will never deploy, and you only have to provide the minimum amount of time. Government jobs usually provide some number of paid days off for military leave. There are even JAGs in the Reserves at large law firms.

The worst part is that the Air Force will still "PCS" you every 3-4 years as a Reservist. So you might start by drilling in your home state, but you could be forced to drill at a base a few states away next time. They try to work with you, and most people seem to handle it okay. I'm in the Guard, so I will never have to leave the state.

I think the Army might be more challenging to integrate with civilian practice. I know in our state, the Army Guard JAGs are at least strongly encouraged to deploy. Those of us on the Air Guard side will likely never be allowed to deploy. I'm not sure if the Army Reserves is the same way.

The intent of the Reserve Components is to allow for this, but it's worth finding people who have done what you think you might want to do so you know how they handled it.

Interesting. Thank you for providing that perspective. I do like the idea of being a reservist (since I don't want to just leave the military in the past even with life after Active Duty) - but I don't want to half-ass two careers. As you said, I could see how that complicates things.

[u603756]

For people familiar with the Air Force JAG process, how much can a good SJA writeup help you overcome weaknesses in other areas on your overall application (such as low GPA)?

[Anonymous User]

For people familiar with the Air Force JAG process, how much can a good SJA writeup help you overcome weaknesses in other areas on your overall application (such as low GPA)?

A good SJA writeup is more or less a requirement even without a glaring weakness on your application. That being said, the SJA interview is the best opportunity to give your side of the story to the board.

You can touch upon it in your personal statement and stuff, but having a well articulated explanation on your SJA record is ideal.

[Aapark]

Anyone else apply for the November AF JAG board?

[Anonymous User]

Anyone else apply for the November AF JAG board?

I did. Hoping we hear back before Thanksgiving. I am not optomistic at all though.

[swharre]

5th times a charm for AF JAG, probably not...

[thriller1122]

5th times a charm for AF JAG, probably not...

I believe in you. 5th times for me as well.

[evilxs]

I am currently 3 years enlisted (about to reenlist for 4 years for Hawaii) in the Army as an E5 and with my bachelor's degree. Based on my situation, I am wondering if I would be a better fit for Army JAG or Air Force JAG.

For Army JAG, the plan would be to go to Hawaii and acquire some NCOERs (since I just became a NCO). After a couple of years, I would apply to FLEP (they just opened it up to Army enlisted).

Alternatively, I leave the military after 7 years and attend law school on the GI Bill. I would then apply for a direct commission for Air Force JAG.

My only issue is the difference in cultures between the branches. I have heard some negative things about the Army JAG Corps - mainly due to the "hooah" attitude. And I get it - being in a support MOS, I used to be one of those people. It's only recently that I've had a change of mindset and I like the Army stuff now - esprit de corps and all that. But I also want to be the best JAG Officer possible, and I heard the Air Force generally utilizes their JAG personnel better than the Army does.

Between the two branches, I am mainly concerned about:

1.) Overseas assignments (I've only deployed once and I want to get in as many as possible - as well as anything else far from the stateside military).

2.) Comradery (I know it won't be the same being enlisted vs officer, but I worry about the comments I have heard about the Air Force feeling more like corporate life, which I left for a reason).

3.) Becoming the best possible JAG Officer (this is where I believe the Army makes a mistake in retaining people - they say Soldier first, but it really gets in the way of some people learning and mastering their jobs. I know the Air Force does a lot better job of developing personnel in their profession. Regardless, I know after Captain you just manage the junior JAGs, which is fine too - but I wonder if the Air Force does even that better due to the way their command structure works - poor big Army makes life at the company level very frustrating due to the good idea fairies up at the Battalion and Brigade level)

4.) What to do after 20 years (I am a strong believer that you need to leave and make room for future NCOs and Officers after 20 years - that is coming from the intent of Congress. But as probably an O4/O5 generalist in a JAG slot, what do you do? I would be in my mid-40s - but I have to work. I don't have to be a lawyer at that point, but I need to do something of substance).

I know that's a lot, and obviously you can't have it all - but if anybody happens to have an intimate understanding of the differences between Army and Air Force JAGs, thanks in advance!

Army:

1. Getting an overseas assignment right out of the gate is absolutely possible. 6 of us in my class were initial assignment overseas. I mean, really if it is that important to you just put Korea on the list and done.

2. Comradery: I don't see the AF JAGs having any less comradery than we do. In fact, the closest AF Base is very close so a lot of JAG things I go to (after-hours hanging stuff) have some AF JAGs too. They are just like us.

3. I disagree with your perception of Army JAG development. I think it is very fair to say that even as a major you will have a legal workload, not just be "managing junior JAs". I cannot compare how we stack up to the AF as I am not an AF JAG, but I can say that considering where I have been assigned I have definitely had a higher share of hooah than most Army JAs and it in no way interfered with my legal work. Our hooah time is spent doing legal tasks. When we do exercises we are practicing operational and international law, not leading soldiers... A typical exercise event would have you "deploy" out into the field with the other troops, but you're still a JA. The problems brought to you will be detainee legal issues, weapons use, collateral damage, etc. All legal focused. When you're practicing law at the battlefield command post that doesn't feel too particularly overly hooah, it feels like being the military attorneys we signed up to be. We often have joint exercises with some Air Force members with us. This hooah stuff is not just an Army thing. The Air Force absolutely practices via military exercises. I went to Osan during their last exercise, and yeah that's a thing.

4. Very personal decision that none of us can advise on.

Army vs. Air Force -I honestly do not think you could go wrong with either. I actually thought I would have preferred Air Force when I began applying in law school. Later I met an old Army JAG who convinced me of how wonderful his career had been, so I threw my hat back in the ring to the Army. I am incredibly grateful it is the Army who picked me up as I had no idea how truly great their side is. I was tainted by feedback and opinions of folks who probably had not even been on this side of the fence. In every way, the Army has been a fantastic experience practice wise for an attorney who wants to practice in the military.

[Anonymous User]

Hey everyone,

I'm a 3L and my hope is to join the JAG corps for the Army, Navy, or Air Force after I graduate. I've already sent in my applications for this cycle and expect to hear back from them by the end of December (November for Air Force).

Unfortunately I've gone through some tough shit lately. My fiance broke off our engagement unexpectedly in September, my uncle passed away that same week, and my parents just announced they're getting a divorce. Also my pet rabbit died. (Not to mention the pandemic, obviously).

I'm really starting to feel like I need to take some time off to process everything before I return to the grind of law school. Plus my younger siblings are not handling the divorce well at all and I'd like to be closer to them to help them out.

I do know that the military looks pretty closely at things like this and with how competitive JAG is already, I'm worried that taking a semester or two off will just kill my chances of getting in. Does anyone have any experience in this area?

[Patrick Bateman]

Hey everyone,

I'm a 3L and my hope is to join the JAG corps for the Army, Navy, or Air Force after I graduate. I've already sent in my applications for this cycle and expect to hear back from them by the end of December (November for Air Force).

Unfortunately I've gone through some tough shit lately. My fiance broke off our engagement unexpectedly in September, my uncle passed away that same week, and my parents just announced they're getting a divorce. Also my pet rabbit died. (Not to mention the pandemic, obviously).

I'm really starting to feel like I need to take some time off to process everything before I return to the grind of law school. Plus my younger siblings are not handling the divorce well at all and I'd like to be closer to them to help them out.

I do know that the military looks pretty closely at things like this and with how competitive JAG is already, I'm worried that taking a semester or two off will just kill my chances of getting in. Does anyone have any experience in this area?

I'm sorry to hear about all that.

Short answer - no idea if anyone on the board has direct experience on taking a semester off and then returning but I cannot imagine it would be fatal to a JAG application. JAGs come from a variety of backgrounds with a variety of life experiences. There is no mandate that one's life prior to applying is without any sort of blemish. I would just be prepared to explain it in the SJA interview as I am sure it will come up.

I would also give some thought on how to frame everything because life can still come at you hard when on active duty and that is a situation where you cannot just take a few months off. If I was the interviewing SJA, I might be wondering if you are someone that could handle being deployed to a stressful environment and the daily challenges that can come with that.

[Aapark]

We made it through the week without AF rejection emails! Good luck to everyone waiting on AF JAG next week. My guess is results will be out Thanksgiving week, but still holding my breath next week.

[thriller1122]

We made it through the week without AF rejection emails! Good luck to everyone waiting on AF JAG next week. My guess is results will be out Thanksgiving week, but still holding my breath next week.

Still waiting for the update email. My guess is that comes M,T,W this week and then calls maybe early next week?

[Aapark]

I’m thinking most likely early next week, but possibly this week. I didn’t know they did an update email. Thanks for the heads up. Without it, I would have assumed any email was a rejection.

[Anonymous User]

Just got an acceptance call from Active Dury Army JAG. The board won’t be posted this year, but letters are being sent out this Friday.

After 5 denials from the Air Force, I got Army on my first attempt!

Now I just need to get in a little better shape

[Anonymous User]

Just got an acceptance call from Active Dury Army JAG. The board won’t be posted this year, but letters are being sent out this Friday.

After 5 denials from the Air Force, I got Army on my first attempt!

Now I just need to get in a little better shape

That is great news, I am waiting on Army National Guard results after 4 ADUSAF rejections! Hope to hear good news!

[WaitingforNJ25]

Congrats to everyone who got selected for army today. Big day!

[Anonymous User]

Congrats on being selected! Was the call from your FSO?

Applied to this board and now anxiously awaiting an answer.

[WaitingforNJ25]

Fso

[Anonymous User]

Just got an acceptance call from Active Dury Army JAG. The board won’t be posted this year, but letters are being sent out this Friday.

After 5 denials from the Air Force, I got Army on my first attempt!

Now I just need to get in a little better shape

That is great news, I am waiting on Army National Guard results after 4 ADUSAF rejections! Hope to hear good news!

Do you know if they are going to release results today as well?