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How common is it to move around in the DOJ? For example, if you start in a torts section but then want to go to crim or antitrust.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 25, 2022 12:12 pm

How common is it to move around in the DOJ? For example, if you start in a torts section but then want to go to crim or antitrust.

I don’t have a clear answer for you, but my concern would be that Main Justice jobs tend to be very specialized, and unless you get hired through the honors program, they tend to hire only experienced laterals (doesn’t have to be exact - I know people who’ve gone from a USAO to a specialized crim section that they had relatively little experience with - but at least in the ballpark). So it would likely depend on what experience you got in the torts section and whether any of the skills could transfer. Certainly it would help to be in DOJ to start, but if you’re in torts you’re not likely to have much contact with crim or antitrust.

I don’t want to say it’s impossible and I hope others will weigh in with more concrete details. But those would be my concerns.

Former Main Justice CRM Trial Attorney
Based on my experience in CRM, it is very, very common to move within sections, organizations, etc. I know attorneys that have gone from CRM to other sections within CRM. CRM to USAOs all over the country. CRM attorneys to CIV. CRM attorneys to NSD. CRM attorneys to FBI/DEA/ATF/CIA. CRM to ODAG. CRM to OLP.

Once you are in DOJ, and if you do good work (and have a good rep), you can go to 90% of places if you really try. The other 10% are reserved for political appointees and their friends.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 25, 2022 4:22 pm

Former Main Justice CRM Trial Attorney
Based on my experience in CRM, it is very, very common to move within sections, organizations, etc. I know attorneys that have gone from CRM to other sections within CRM. CRM to USAOs all over the country. CRM attorneys to CIV. CRM attorneys to NSD. CRM attorneys to FBI/DEA/ATF/CIA. CRM to ODAG. CRM to OLP.

Once you are in DOJ, and if you do good work (and have a good rep), you can go to 90% of places if you really try. The other 10% are reserved for political appointees and their friends.

Current USAO AUSA with many years of experience. 100% agree with this. I know CRM lawyers who switched to CIV, and CIV lawyers who switched to CRM. Small town AUSAs who work in national security, and national security lawyers who took a 100% telecommuting job with higher salary because they want to work in their pajamas every day.

There are a few rules you have to follow to do this. This sounds preachy and soap-boxy but, I'm really serious, if you take these literally, you will thrive: Always thoroughly research and analyze the law. Write very good motions. Be very ethical to the point of telling a superior who wants you to be unethical to fuck off, if it comes to that. Be very nice to staff. Be very nice to colleagues. Don't be a dick to opposing counsel except in very controlled circumstances where it is absolutely vital to the protection of the government's interests and even then only in the most measured, most ethical, and most civilized manner possible. Calm the hell down and consider that you might be wrong, and then admit you're wrong if you are. And finally: never forget that your duties are to the public, not to your goddamned ego or to your resume.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 25, 2022 4:22 pm

Former Main Justice CRM Trial Attorney
Based on my experience in CRM, it is very, very common to move within sections, organizations, etc. I know attorneys that have gone from CRM to other sections within CRM. CRM to USAOs all over the country. CRM attorneys to CIV. CRM attorneys to NSD. CRM attorneys to FBI/DEA/ATF/CIA. CRM to ODAG. CRM to OLP.

Once you are in DOJ, and if you do good work (and have a good rep), you can go to 90% of places if you really try. The other 10% are reserved for political appointees and their friends.

Do a lot of people move between CRM and CIV? I can see all the others - within CRM, CRM to USAOs or NSD or agencies or more policy positions. I just always have the impression that crim/civ crossover is tougher (caveat: speaking as someone who went straight to a USAO and doesn’t have the civil litigation experience of someone who came to DOJ from biglaw).

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 26, 2022 7:15 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 25, 2022 4:22 pm

Former Main Justice CRM Trial Attorney
Based on my experience in CRM, it is very, very common to move within sections, organizations, etc. I know attorneys that have gone from CRM to other sections within CRM. CRM to USAOs all over the country. CRM attorneys to CIV. CRM attorneys to NSD. CRM attorneys to FBI/DEA/ATF/CIA. CRM to ODAG. CRM to OLP.

Once you are in DOJ, and if you do good work (and have a good rep), you can go to 90% of places if you really try. The other 10% are reserved for political appointees and their friends.

Do a lot of people move between CRM and CIV? I can see all the others - within CRM, CRM to USAOs or NSD or agencies or more policy positions. I just always have the impression that crim/civ crossover is tougher (caveat: speaking as someone who went straight to a USAO and doesn’t have the civil litigation experience of someone who came to DOJ from biglaw).

It’s more common than you may think. For example, some CIV components do criminal work (consumer protection). Further, there’s kind of a rough transition between BL and government work so agencies often are more willing to hire government people (and all those BL folks are mostly dealing with Civil too).

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 26, 2022 7:48 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 26, 2022 7:15 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 25, 2022 4:22 pm

Former Main Justice CRM Trial Attorney
Based on my experience in CRM, it is very, very common to move within sections, organizations, etc. I know attorneys that have gone from CRM to other sections within CRM. CRM to USAOs all over the country. CRM attorneys to CIV. CRM attorneys to NSD. CRM attorneys to FBI/DEA/ATF/CIA. CRM to ODAG. CRM to OLP.

Once you are in DOJ, and if you do good work (and have a good rep), you can go to 90% of places if you really try. The other 10% are reserved for political appointees and their friends.

Do a lot of people move between CRM and CIV? I can see all the others - within CRM, CRM to USAOs or NSD or agencies or more policy positions. I just always have the impression that crim/civ crossover is tougher (caveat: speaking as someone who went straight to a USAO and doesn’t have the civil litigation experience of someone who came to DOJ from biglaw).

It’s more common than you may think. For example, some CIV components do criminal work (consumer protection). Further, there’s kind of a rough transition between BL and government work so agencies often are more willing to hire government people (and all those BL folks are mostly dealing with Civil too).

Thanks for answering!

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 26, 2022 7:15 am

Do a lot of people move between CRM and CIV? I can see all the others - within CRM, CRM to USAOs or NSD or agencies or more policy positions. I just always have the impression that crim/civ crossover is tougher (caveat: speaking as someone who went straight to a USAO and doesn’t have the civil litigation experience of someone who came to DOJ from biglaw).

USAO AUSA here, and yes, but I should clarify I'm talking about the USAO world here. Not Main Justice which I just don't know the culture of as well. (I deal with Main Justice all the time. I just don't work there.)

It is a challenge to switch especially from CRM to CIV in my opinion, but it's just like any other challenge: if you're diligent, it's doable, and not really discouraged if that's what you're interested in. The DOJ has a very strong culture of providing training support and peer collegiality, in my experience. If you're a criminal prosecutor joining civil, it's not like you get dumped in your office while everyone around you brings out the popcorn to watch you drown. As for civil to criminal, there is a cultural adjustment needed there too, but many civil AUSAs have to delve into criminal matters so it's not really a foreign land to them. I'm in civil and have handled numerous criminal matters that turned into civil lawsuits. See, e.g., Bivens et al.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 26, 2022 3:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 26, 2022 7:15 am

Do a lot of people move between CRM and CIV? I can see all the others - within CRM, CRM to USAOs or NSD or agencies or more policy positions. I just always have the impression that crim/civ crossover is tougher (caveat: speaking as someone who went straight to a USAO and doesn’t have the civil litigation experience of someone who came to DOJ from biglaw).

USAO AUSA here, and yes, but I should clarify I'm talking about the USAO world here. Not Main Justice which I just don't know the culture of as well. (I deal with Main Justice all the time. I just don't work there.)

It is a challenge to switch especially from CRM to CIV in my opinion, but it's just like any other challenge: if you're diligent, it's doable, and not really discouraged if that's what you're interested in. The DOJ has a very strong culture of providing training support and peer collegiality, in my experience. If you're a criminal prosecutor joining civil, it's not like you get dumped in your office while everyone around you brings out the popcorn to watch you drown. As for civil to criminal, there is a cultural adjustment needed there too, but many civil AUSAs have to delve into criminal matters so it's not really a foreign land to them. I'm in civil and have handled numerous criminal matters that turned into civil lawsuits. See, e.g., Bivens et al.

Anon above, and yeah, I was talking specifically about main justice, since that’s what the OP was asking about. I was particularly curious about the prospect of going from torts to criminal, for instance, just because CRM in main justice seems so specialized and seems like it would be hard to jump from torts straight to, say, child exploitation or computer crime or the like.

I know what you mean about within USAOs - I haven’t seen it happen a lot but I definitely know people who’ve gone from one to the other (my experience has been mostly with people beginning in criminal then going to civil, and sometimes going back again, not so much the other way around. If I’m brutally honest most of the people I’ve seen do it have been angling for judgeships, not that there’s anything wrong with that).

FWIW, I agree with all your preachy rules.

Lol, I definitely sound preachy. Oh well. You yung'ns need preachin'. In the meantime, I don't think the general universal rules that apply to the legal profession are somehow different in Main Justice: the way to move around within the DOJ is to just stick to the basics of professionalism, courtesy, and good work. If you're a good litigator who knows what you're doing, making the switch from handling antitrust civil cases over to prosecuting child pornography cases is not impossible if you are patient. You'll have to think about a time scope of 5 to 10 years though. You're not going to work antitrust for a year and then the following year find yourself in charge of prosecuting Steve Bannon.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 26, 2022 7:13 pm

Lol, I definitely sound preachy. Oh well. You yung'ns need preachin'. In the meantime, I don't think the general universal rules that apply to the legal profession are somehow different in Main Justice: the way to move around within the DOJ is to just stick to the basics of professionalism, courtesy, and good work. If you're a good litigator who knows what you're doing, making the switch from handling antitrust civil cases over to prosecuting child pornography cases is not impossible if you are patient. You'll have to think about a time scope of 5 to 10 years though. You're not going to work antitrust for a year and then the following year find yourself in charge of prosecuting Steve Bannon.

I was serious about agreeing with you! And everything else makes sense, thanks.