What to do post-State SC Clerkship Forum

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clerkshipinterest

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What to do post-State SC Clerkship

Post by clerkshipinterest » Thu May 12, 2022 11:02 pm

Hi all,

I'm going to be clerking for my home state supreme court (NJ/MA/CA) starting this summer. I went to a t14 and did very well academically. I had a lot of criminal law experience and a fair amount of civil rights litigation exposure as well.

My long-term goals are a bit unclear--I want to work in government, litigate (at least to begin), and do good, either in civil rights, housing, or criminal work. I think I would enjoy being in the city solicitor's office for a progressive and innovative city. I might also enjoy working for a state AG that had similar vibes. I could see myself doing some public defense work (especially if I could do a fair amount of appellate stuff). And I could also be very happy at a civil rights firm. Down the road, I'd hope to be in a position where I could either be doing important affirmative litigation (either as a top person for an AG or at a civil rights firm) and possibly some criminal/capital representation on the side. Maybe, eventually, I'd transition to policy.

I know my interests are all over the place, but I wanted to ask about the first next steps. I've thought about a federal district court clerkship (there are several in my home city/state, and it's pretty common for clerks from the SC to do this afterwards). I've also thought a lot about my home state AG's honors program, which would definitely get me into court doing a variety of things. Lastly, I've thought about firms, either civil rights firms (that probably would want more experience) or even, if there could be a good fit, a big law firm that would give me some good training and have some pro bono opportunities.

Is there any sense that one of these next steps would be best? Or is it just a matter of what feels right?

Thanks.

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Re: What to do post-State SC Clerkship

Post by Anonymous User » Thu May 12, 2022 11:27 pm

Don’t do biglaw. The whole “pro bono” thing is highly exaggerated and your pro bono involvement will never make up for the fact that the majority of your time will be spent representing corporations against the little guy (or gal). If you sincerely want to do good, you probably won’t be happy. It’s only really a good option if you’re the sole person supporting multiple dependents or drowning in debt with no way out or something like that, or if you really just want to be rich (which doesn’t sound like you).

All the other options you identify are great, and I would also add a public interest fellowship like Skadden or Equal Justice Works to the mix. Private public interest firms like Sanford Heisler Sharp, Emery Celli, Lieff Cabraser, etc. are especially good options because they pay generous salaries as far as public interest goes. (You typically get into the 150K range as you approach the mid-level years, and there are usually bonuses on top of that.)

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Re: What to do post-State SC Clerkship

Post by Wild Card » Fri May 13, 2022 1:00 am

You should keep clerking, for circuit and district judges.

State AG and SG are quite selective. New York, at least. They want folks with at least three years of litigation experience.

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Re: What to do post-State SC Clerkship

Post by Anonymous User » Fri May 13, 2022 10:21 am

Congrats on the clerkship! A few thoughts for you. I agree with the poster that said big law is likely not the best path for your goals, assuming finances are not a primary driver of your decision-making.

As to a second clerkship versus straight into government service, I think that's a question that your justice can help you with. It's not abundantly clear how a federal trial court clerkship would help advance your standing for appellate work beyond just it being another credential. How many folks in the offices you're interested in have district court clerkships on their resume? That might help you determine how they're valued. Also, in most instances the justices will know the state AG's office quite well and will likely have former clerks working there so they can connect you or at least give you an idea of the caliber of candidates who get hired versus those who don't.

One minor point is that the states you listed are quite different along these lines. The NJ and CA AG offices are substantially more active in the kinds of cases your original post described versus MA. That is the solicitors' offices in the former two states are frequently before SCOTUS and their respective SSCs leading or defending high profile cases. This isn't to diminish the important work of the MA AGs office; it's just to say that NJ and CA are leading the charge as it relates to progressive government work and are two very active offices. Both have honors fellowships in various departments, including the solicitors office. Additionally, there is a fellowship program called public rights project that funds and helps place folks in AG and other government offices to do the type of work it sounds like you're interested in. But again, I'd lean on your justices network a bit to see what you can find, especially because it sounds like you have good grades.

clerkshipinterest

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Re: What to do post-State SC Clerkship

Post by clerkshipinterest » Sat May 14, 2022 1:39 pm

These are all incredibly helpful comments, so thank you. I agree that big law doesn't seem like it'd be good for me at all. I'm not motivated by making lots of money, thankfully do not have much debt to pay off, and want to do actual good. I guess I've been lured into the idea by friends going into big law who are pitching the idea that pro bono is a satisfactory outlet (they probably have been doing this largely to convince themselves).

I guess my first next step is to research people at (1) my state AG and (2) good civil rights firms, who have positions I'd like to have, and identify whether a second clerkship, in federal district court, would be necessary or helpful in getting there. If so, I'll have to home in on that process. If not, then I'll have to come up with a list of positions to apply to elsewhere. And it's certainly true that my justice will be a great resource in researching this.

Thanks again to all!

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Re: What to do post-State SC Clerkship

Post by lavarman84 » Sun May 15, 2022 4:03 am

Just something to flag for you since you want to do good, city attorneys/solicitors can get stuck with some really shitty cases if you're a progressive who wants to do good, even progressive cities. If you're in the right department at a state AG, that's less likely. Although, with it being the government, it still might happen. Even liberal states take really regressive stances from time to time.

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Re: What to do post-State SC Clerkship

Post by clerkshipinterest » Mon May 16, 2022 8:32 am

^unquestionably. Thanks for that reminder.

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Re: What to do post-State SC Clerkship

Post by gf2139 » Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:12 am

I wanted to jump on this thread because I feel that I was in a similar situation when I first got out.

The first thing I wanted to say was that, I think you should spend some time discerning what "doing good" as a lawyer looks like for you. Generally, young attorneys don't have the freedom to choose their clients. It was said elsewhere on this thread that even if you work for a progressive AG's office, they may still take hard stances in certain areas. One example may be in prisoner litigation. Your client is the jail/jail official in the mountain of lawsuits that are brought against them. Although you may be in a state that places a higher value on restorative/rehabilitative criminal justice programs, you may still be put in a position where you have to defend an institution whose employees committed some pretty horrible acts. Moreover, the reality is that you will likely win in these cases because incarcerated individuals don't have access to quality representation, and there are an abundance of ways in which government entities can invoke immunity.

I didn't have a good sense of what "doing good" meant to me until I was several years out of law school. I am now a federal public defender, after clerking (state SC and USDC) and serving as a state public defender. To me, "doing good" is giving humanity to my clients. In most instances, I can only mitigate their situation and legal victories are few and far between. However, I have opportunities every day to provide some humanity and compassion to my clients, and 99 time out of 100, clients appreciate that more than most legal wins you could secure (unless of course you can get them out of prison!).

Given that you don't yet have a clear focus on where you want to end up, you cannot go wrong by trying for a federal clerkship. State clerkships are great, but they expose you to only a piece of the full scope of litigation you could do in the areas you describe. Moreover, a second clerkship would give you an opportunity to further develop your identity as an advocate. So for now, I would say try for a federal clerkship. Take time to develop your skills and a researcher and writer and gain experience. Once I had a USDC clerkship, applying for jobs became much easier and my response rate skyrocketed.

However, if you have an in with a more progressive State AG, you couldn't go wrong by working there either. However, the benefit of a clerkship is that you have a set end date and if you don't like the work, there is usually no stigma about leaving a clerkship after a year. However, if you don't like working as an AG, you run the risk of hating it, and having to leave after only a short time.

Final point, you said you might be interested in doing capital work on the side. I exclusively do capital representation as an AFPD. CHU offices are in dire need of people and you could certainly get hired to do this work somewhere. However, the cases are incredibly difficult and its hard for some young lawyers to feel comfortable with the painstakingly slow pace that death penalty cases typically run. Just keep that in mind. Also, very few people can effectively do death penalty postconviction on the side.

Feel free to PM with questions.

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Re: What to do post-State SC Clerkship

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Aug 18, 2022 6:06 pm

I was working for a city/county attorney and liked it a lot. It may not be the right move if you are very left of center and feel your day job needs to promote your policy/moral values, but I really enjoyed the job and felt like on the whole my work was a net positive. 1983 litigation is part of these offices, although they may silo it off to a specific practice group. I did not work on those cases, but I wasn’t bothered by that part of the office anyways bc I’m not a progressive and happen to think many of those cases are total BS, with some glaring exceptions; and if/when these exceptional cases occurred, I felt like they got adequately dealt with through the internal investigation process at my municipality or through settlement.

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Re: What to do post-State SC Clerkship

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Oct 09, 2022 11:08 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Aug 18, 2022 6:06 pm
I was working for a city/county attorney and liked it a lot. It may not be the right move if you are very left of center and feel your day job needs to promote your policy/moral values, but I really enjoyed the job and felt like on the whole my work was a net positive. 1983 litigation is part of these offices, although they may silo it off to a specific practice group. I did not work on those cases, but I wasn’t bothered by that part of the office anyways bc I’m not a progressive and happen to think many of those cases are total BS, with some glaring exceptions; and if/when these exceptional cases occurred, I felt like they got adequately dealt with through the internal investigation process at my municipality or through settlement.
(emphasis mine)

This is a lengthy essay and screed. Sorry. But maybe it will inspire you or other like-minded law students or recent grads. I'm an older government lawyer who handles civil rights cases and wanted to jump in here, by responding to the highlighted comment in particular. I feel very strongly about social and moral issues. Donald Trump was and is a fascist who threatens our democracy. The George Floyd protests were a drop in the bucket of what work we still need to do to remedy police disparities. Law enforcement culture is in crisis and in desperate need of a massive, sweeping overhaul.

Oh, did I mention I work for the government?

My expertise basically is police procedures and their constitutionality. That's my bread and butter. And not only am I a government lawyer but most of my significant time as a civil rights defense lawyer was under an administration (local, state or federal, or some mix, over the years) whose politics I absolutely did not agree with. Good thing I don't work for a politician. I work for an institution, and ultimately the people who rely on that institution. They are my boss, as expressed through the Constitution. If forced to do anything that hurt their interests by violating that document, I would resign.

The government needs independent-thinking, fierce advocates for the truth within its ranks. I am a living breathing example of American democracy being vibrant enough still, despite all of the threats it has withstood, that lawyers who refuse to lie about law enforcement and who take their constitutional duties seriously are a core part of how government still functions. Frankly, the 2017-2021 nightmare we have all barely survived as a country would have destroyed our democracy if it weren't for government lawyers who refused to shirk their duties. Those lawyers and the choices they made were a key distinction between the American victory over fascism in 2020 versus the failure of past democracies in the 20th century, like Germany's Weimar Republic in 1933, and so many more. (But let's be clear: 2020 was just 2020. The battle continues and it's not over.) So yes, thank you ACLU and Adam Schiff and Liz Cheney and everyone else doing your part to fight this from the outside. But I send big sloppy kisses to all my unknown colleagues out there who are fighting the same fight from the inside.

Switching from my soap box and back to the real world of your choices as a young lawyer...

I don't take a strong position on whether someone with feelings similar to mine should work for the government or work for a civil rights law firm. You decide. But here's a list of things you need to think about before just jumping to the conclusion that the civil rights angle is automatically the right one to take:
  • Law firm economics suck. I hate them. You will too.
  • Working on what you think are cool and righteous cases will be a small and probably even tiny fraction of your day to day work on cases. Most of your time will be spent on very grey area, shady cases that probably lack merit, not to mention non-civil rights cases.
  • Working on such "cool and righteous cases" on behalf of the government is an honor and a privilege. I don't need some law firm attorney to file a lawsuit for me to right wrongs. The power of my office allows me to conduct my own damned investigations. I don't have to issue subpoenas or conduct time-consuming depositions that are subject to strict time limits and rules about what questions I may ask, like civil rights plaintiff lawyers. What I do is pick up the phone and call whoever I want, or show up in person to demand documents and interview government employees to find out the truth. Liars don't fare very well with me. I have zero tolerance for it.
  • After many years of doing this work, I have never had to take a bullshit defense case to trial or argued a bullshit appeal. When the government violates the Constitution on my watch, the government pays for its wrongdoing. I have taken many cases to trial where the merits of a plaintiff's case were shady. We tend to win those. Winning is fun!
  • You'd be surprised at how well government pay can be, especially when you throw in pension benefits, vacation time, etc. Given your status as an appellate law clerk from a good law school, you can probably get a fun job with the DOJ pretty early in your career. If you don't, you might have to suffer a few years of shoddy salary while you plug away at the county or state AG level doing this type of work. But if you love the work, this will still work out in the long run because you'll just end up at DOJ later.
Good luck and keep up the fight, wherever you choose to do it from.

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