DOJ Honors Program 2022-2023 Forum

[Anonymous User]

Can’t comment on odds, but when I went through this, I got an offer right after Thanksgiving. I think that year was a little later than normal, but I think second half of November rather than first half. (But I think it’s also possible that components do this slightly less in lockstep when I went through it.)

[Anonymous User]

What does it mean to be a “finalist.” Is there a callback interview? Or is that just a fancy way of saying your in the top few people?

[Anonymous User]

What does it mean to be a “finalist.” Is there a callback interview? Or is that just a fancy way of saying your in the top few people?

Finalists means either you’re getting an offer or you’re an alternate if one of those offers declines. There’s no call back interview, they make this decision based on the interviews you just found out about.

[Anonymous User]

What does it mean to be a “finalist.” Is there a callback interview? Or is that just a fancy way of saying your in the top few people?

Finalists means either you’re getting an offer or you’re an alternate if one of those offers declines. There’s no call back interview, they make this decision based on the interviews you just found out about.

Yeah, components have to send a list of their chosen finalists to OARM to get authorization to make them an offer. That’s what finalist means, OARM has authorized the component to make that person an offer. As noted, it doesn’t mean you get an offer, because components get authorization for more than they’ll actually hire, so they don’t have to go back and get more authorizations if their first choice(s) take other offers. (I think in the most competitive components being a finalist de facto means an offer, because everyone accepts, but some people do get multiple offers so there needs to be a little wiggle room.)

The OCIJ clerkships tend to have the most finalists who don’t end up with offers (there are more positions and matching people up with locations gets complicated - people who’d take the job in NYC or LA may not take it in Lumpkin, GA - so they have more alternates than other components, I believe).

[Anonymous User]

What does it mean to be a “finalist.” Is there a callback interview? Or is that just a fancy way of saying your in the top few people?

Finalists means either you’re getting an offer or you’re an alternate if one of those offers declines. There’s no call back interview, they make this decision based on the interviews you just found out about.

Yeah, components have to send a list of their chosen finalists to OARM to get authorization to make them an offer. That’s what finalist means, OARM has authorized the component to make that person an offer. As noted, it doesn’t mean you get an offer, because components get authorization for more than they’ll actually hire, so they don’t have to go back and get more authorizations if their first choice(s) take other offers. (I think in the most competitive components being a finalist de facto means an offer, because everyone accepts, but some people do get multiple offers so there needs to be a little wiggle room.)

The OCIJ clerkships tend to have the most finalists who don’t end up with offers (there are more positions and matching people up with locations gets complicated - people who’d take the job in NYC or LA may not take it in Lumpkin, GA - so they have more alternates than other components, I believe).

I disagree with the fact that finalist = offer. Competitive divisions/branches are competing with other competitive divisions/branches for the same positions. My branch designates 2X as many finalists as offers. When I went through the process, I had two friends going through at the same time who were finalists but didn’t end up getting offers (both in very competitive civil division components).

[Anonymous User]

What does it mean to be a “finalist.” Is there a callback interview? Or is that just a fancy way of saying your in the top few people?

Finalists means either you’re getting an offer or you’re an alternate if one of those offers declines. There’s no call back interview, they make this decision based on the interviews you just found out about.

Yeah, components have to send a list of their chosen finalists to OARM to get authorization to make them an offer. That’s what finalist means, OARM has authorized the component to make that person an offer. As noted, it doesn’t mean you get an offer, because components get authorization for more than they’ll actually hire, so they don’t have to go back and get more authorizations if their first choice(s) take other offers. (I think in the most competitive components being a finalist de facto means an offer, because everyone accepts, but some people do get multiple offers so there needs to be a little wiggle room.)

The OCIJ clerkships tend to have the most finalists who don’t end up with offers (there are more positions and matching people up with locations gets complicated - people who’d take the job in NYC or LA may not take it in Lumpkin, GA - so they have more alternates than other components, I believe).

I disagree with the fact that finalist = offer. Competitive divisions/branches are competing with other competitive divisions/branches for the same positions. My branch designates 2X as many finalists as offers. When I went through the process, I had two friends going through at the same time who were finalists but didn’t end up getting offers (both in very competitive civil division components).

Fair enough. I just haven’t seen as many people reporting finalist status who don’t get an offer in the non-OCIJ components, but it may be a function of when I went through it and which components I’m more familiar with.

[Anonymous User]

Can anyone tell me what kind of questions to expect during the interview? I'm very nervous and want to be prepared. EOIR if that helps

[Anonymous User]

Is salary negotiable for DOJ honors position offers? Question is specific for AUSA offices but happy to hear from anyone.

[Anonymous User]

Is salary negotiable for DOJ honors position offers? Question is specific for AUSA offices but happy to hear from anyone.

My strong impression is that it’s not, although I can’t guarantee that that’s universally true and not just a function of my own reluctance to negotiate. I don’t think there’s any harm at all in asking (politely) but I suspect you should be prepared to hear that it’s not.

(Slightly more technical answer: USAOs set your pay by years of experience and then within that range, by a percentile - for hypothetical example, someone with 2 years of experience can get paid between ~$57k and ~$97k (without locality pay). Each individual office decides what percentile on that range you get paid, and the offices where I’ve worked start you at the 25th percentile within that range, so ~$67k. But I do know of offices in high COL areas that set their baseline percentile higher, like 30 or 35%. Again, my impression is that they generally set that percentile for the whole office and everyone starting gets paid the same percentile of their own grade, so that there isn’t really room for negotiation, but again, I don’t want to be completely dogmatic because I am personally terrible with negotiating.)

[Anonymous User]

Is salary negotiable for DOJ honors position offers? Question is specific for AUSA offices but happy to hear from anyone.

My strong impression is that it’s not, although I can’t guarantee that that’s universally true and not just a function of my own reluctance to negotiate. I don’t think there’s any harm at all in asking (politely) but I suspect you should be prepared to hear that it’s not.

(Slightly more technical answer: USAOs set your pay by years of experience and then within that range, by a percentile - for hypothetical example, someone with 2 years of experience can get paid between ~$57k and ~$97k (without locality pay). Each individual office decides what percentile on that range you get paid, and the offices where I’ve worked start you at the 25th percentile within that range, so ~$67k. But I do know of offices in high COL areas that set their baseline percentile higher, like 30 or 35%. Again, my impression is that they generally set that percentile for the whole office and everyone starting gets paid the same percentile of their own grade, so that there isn’t really room for negotiation, but again, I don’t want to be completely dogmatic because I am personally terrible with negotiating.)

I'm an experienced AUSA who was hired not too long ago after many years of practice elsewhere. The idea of negotiating did not even remotely occur to me. I was already near the top of the available salary ranges for AUSAs anyway. When I got the offer from the boss, they explained that the salary offer was the result of a bunch of number-crunching formulas and calculations spit out by the HR folks over which the boss did not have much say. I was already inclined not to negotiate anyway, but in hindsight, that comment alone would have signaled me that negotiations would not be viewed favorably.

Personally, I would not negotiate unless I got a very clear, strong signal from someone (I dunno who) that it is invited.

[Anonymous User]

Is salary negotiable for DOJ honors position offers? Question is specific for AUSA offices but happy to hear from anyone.

My strong impression is that it’s not, although I can’t guarantee that that’s universally true and not just a function of my own reluctance to negotiate. I don’t think there’s any harm at all in asking (politely) but I suspect you should be prepared to hear that it’s not.

(Slightly more technical answer: USAOs set your pay by years of experience and then within that range, by a percentile - for hypothetical example, someone with 2 years of experience can get paid between ~$57k and ~$97k (without locality pay). Each individual office decides what percentile on that range you get paid, and the offices where I’ve worked start you at the 25th percentile within that range, so ~$67k. But I do know of offices in high COL areas that set their baseline percentile higher, like 30 or 35%. Again, my impression is that they generally set that percentile for the whole office and everyone starting gets paid the same percentile of their own grade, so that there isn’t really room for negotiation, but again, I don’t want to be completely dogmatic because I am personally terrible with negotiating.)

I'm an experienced AUSA who was hired not too long ago after many years of practice elsewhere. The idea of negotiating did not even remotely occur to me. I was already near the top of the available salary ranges for AUSAs anyway. When I got the offer from the boss, they explained that the salary offer was the result of a bunch of number-crunching formulas and calculations spit out by the HR folks over which the boss did not have much say. I was already inclined not to negotiate anyway, but in hindsight, that comment alone would have signaled me that negotiations would not be viewed favorably.

Personally, I would not negotiate unless I got a very clear, strong signal from someone (I dunno who) that it is invited.

Anon you’re replying to, and that’s completely fair. I’ve never heard of anyone negotiating and the salary has never been presented to me as open for discussion (when I changed offices, the USA said, “and our locality pay is higher than yours so you’ll get a raise!”), but I didn’t want to assume my disinclination to negotiate had nothing to do with it. Plus I don’t know other honors people to discuss it with.

I don’t think people would necessarily hold it against a new attorney if they asked something like “is there any negotiating the salary?” because people just don’t always know things, but agree that after a comment like what you got, it would not be appropriate.

For what it’s worth, when I got offered the job through the honors program the USA scarcely remembered to tell me the salary (they talked for a few minutes and then were like “oh - I suppose I should tell you what it pays”) and I did ask for, like, 20 minutes to talk to my spouse about the offer and even that seemed like a stretch (they were nice about it but clearly expected me to accept on the spot, which I did 20 minutes later. It’s not like I hadn’t discussed this at length my spouse already, it was just my one little expression of independence). So nothing about the offer experience at all encourages negotiation. I think now there’s a rule about holding the offer open for some period, but even that wasn’t the case when I applied and I’d be surprised if the culture had really changed.

[Anonymous User]

No. Pay is based on the federal pay scales. There's no discretion–to get higher pay you just have to satisfy the requirement for the higher scale.

[Anonymous User]

2 Questions: Does anyone know when they designate finalists? Or when they contact references? I know they are interviewing into next week but just wanted to check. The next month is about to be so stressful! ATR specifically.

[Anonymous User]

From a current Honors Attorney: Remember, this DOJ Honors cycle is not your only opportunity to apply for a DOJ Honors position. I’m sure you all know that certain clerkships and fellowships can extend your eligibility for the program. However, you may still be able to apply for DOJ Honors positions later this year, or even next year, regardless of whether you have an eligibility preserving activity.

I’m referring to informal DOJ Honors opportunities. As you saw on your application, there are certain components that participate informally because they may or may not hire through DOJ Honors. There are other informal opportunities, though. Later in the year, as components have increased need or increased funds, they will send out honors attorney vacancies to all applicants for your cycle—assuming you checked the box to get those offers. USAO-DC, for example, is hiring multiple DOJ Honors applicants from last cycle as AUSAs. I know ATF has also regularly posted honors attorney positions throughout the year for last cycle’s applicants. Before you ask, these positions carry the same prestige as those who get in during the formal process. You’ll still be an honors attorney, and no one will know the difference. Oftentimes, these later-added informal opportunities will be much less competitive than the positions posted during the formal cycle. They may also be much more niche; I have seen professional ethics attorneys, publications attorneys, and firearm regulation attorneys positions as informal vacancies.

My point is this: If it is your dream to work at DOJ straight out of law school and you don’t get hired through the main cycle, you will certainly have more opportunities to apply for specific positions over the next two years. I would expect there to be more of these informal opportunities than last year because many DOJ components are ramping up hiring.

If you have any questions about the informal processes or what my application looked like, I’m happy to answer :)

[Anonymous User]

2 Questions: Does anyone know when they designate finalists? Or when they contact references? I know they are interviewing into next week but just wanted to check. The next month is about to be so stressful! ATR specifically.

I know last year they designated finalists on November 18. Not sure about references.

[Anonymous User]

2 Questions: Does anyone know when they designate finalists? Or when they contact references? I know they are interviewing into next week but just wanted to check. The next month is about to be so stressful! ATR specifically.

They won’t designate finalists until the interviewing is complete.

Also, when they contact references can vary by component and candidate (for instance, when I went through this, my references were contacted after I interviewed, but I’ve heard of references for people who’ve done SLIP being contacted before even interviewing a candidate).

[Anonymous User]

2 Questions: Does anyone know when they designate finalists? Or when they contact references? I know they are interviewing into next week but just wanted to check. The next month is about to be so stressful! ATR specifically.

They won’t designate finalists until the interviewing is complete.

Also, when they contact references can vary by component and candidate (for instance, when I went through this, my references were contacted after I interviewed, but I’ve heard of references for people who’ve done SLIP being contacted before even interviewing a candidate).

Were your references checked shortly after your interview, or after the interviewing period closed?

[Anonymous User]

Is salary negotiable for DOJ honors position offers? Question is specific for AUSA offices but happy to hear from anyone.

My strong impression is that it’s not, although I can’t guarantee that that’s universally true and not just a function of my own reluctance to negotiate. I don’t think there’s any harm at all in asking (politely) but I suspect you should be prepared to hear that it’s not.

(Slightly more technical answer: USAOs set your pay by years of experience and then within that range, by a percentile - for hypothetical example, someone with 2 years of experience can get paid between ~$57k and ~$97k (without locality pay). Each individual office decides what percentile on that range you get paid, and the offices where I’ve worked start you at the 25th percentile within that range, so ~$67k. But I do know of offices in high COL areas that set their baseline percentile higher, like 30 or 35%. Again, my impression is that they generally set that percentile for the whole office and everyone starting gets paid the same percentile of their own grade, so that there isn’t really room for negotiation, but again, I don’t want to be completely dogmatic because I am personally terrible with negotiating.)

I'm an experienced AUSA who was hired not too long ago after many years of practice elsewhere. The idea of negotiating did not even remotely occur to me. I was already near the top of the available salary ranges for AUSAs anyway. When I got the offer from the boss, they explained that the salary offer was the result of a bunch of number-crunching formulas and calculations spit out by the HR folks over which the boss did not have much say. I was already inclined not to negotiate anyway, but in hindsight, that comment alone would have signaled me that negotiations would not be viewed favorably.

Personally, I would not negotiate unless I got a very clear, strong signal from someone (I dunno who) that it is invited.

Anon you’re replying to, and that’s completely fair. I’ve never heard of anyone negotiating and the salary has never been presented to me as open for discussion (when I changed offices, the USA said, “and our locality pay is higher than yours so you’ll get a raise!”), but I didn’t want to assume my disinclination to negotiate had nothing to do with it. Plus I don’t know other honors people to discuss it with.

I don’t think people would necessarily hold it against a new attorney if they asked something like “is there any negotiating the salary?” because people just don’t always know things, but agree that after a comment like what you got, it would not be appropriate.

For what it’s worth, when I got offered the job through the honors program the USA scarcely remembered to tell me the salary (they talked for a few minutes and then were like “oh - I suppose I should tell you what it pays”) and I did ask for, like, 20 minutes to talk to my spouse about the offer and even that seemed like a stretch (they were nice about it but clearly expected me to accept on the spot, which I did 20 minutes later. It’s not like I hadn’t discussed this at length my spouse already, it was just my one little expression of independence). So nothing about the offer experience at all encourages negotiation. I think now there’s a rule about holding the offer open for some period, but even that wasn’t the case when I applied and I’d be surprised if the culture had really changed.

Can I ask which office this was re: expectation to accept on the spot?

I had some interviews and didn’t realize this was a norm. I figured I would reasonably take a week or two to think about it after getting any offer. So additionally, if you have any more information on these expectations, whether they are widespread, and what office you got the offer with it’d be helpful. I would hate to the mistake of asking for a week when that’s not acceptable, ha!

[Anonymous User]

Is salary negotiable for DOJ honors position offers? Question is specific for AUSA offices but happy to hear from anyone.

My strong impression is that it’s not, although I can’t guarantee that that’s universally true and not just a function of my own reluctance to negotiate. I don’t think there’s any harm at all in asking (politely) but I suspect you should be prepared to hear that it’s not.

(Slightly more technical answer: USAOs set your pay by years of experience and then within that range, by a percentile - for hypothetical example, someone with 2 years of experience can get paid between ~$57k and ~$97k (without locality pay). Each individual office decides what percentile on that range you get paid, and the offices where I’ve worked start you at the 25th percentile within that range, so ~$67k. But I do know of offices in high COL areas that set their baseline percentile higher, like 30 or 35%. Again, my impression is that they generally set that percentile for the whole office and everyone starting gets paid the same percentile of their own grade, so that there isn’t really room for negotiation, but again, I don’t want to be completely dogmatic because I am personally terrible with negotiating.)

I'm an experienced AUSA who was hired not too long ago after many years of practice elsewhere. The idea of negotiating did not even remotely occur to me. I was already near the top of the available salary ranges for AUSAs anyway. When I got the offer from the boss, they explained that the salary offer was the result of a bunch of number-crunching formulas and calculations spit out by the HR folks over which the boss did not have much say. I was already inclined not to negotiate anyway, but in hindsight, that comment alone would have signaled me that negotiations would not be viewed favorably.

Personally, I would not negotiate unless I got a very clear, strong signal from someone (I dunno who) that it is invited.

Anon you’re replying to, and that’s completely fair. I’ve never heard of anyone negotiating and the salary has never been presented to me as open for discussion (when I changed offices, the USA said, “and our locality pay is higher than yours so you’ll get a raise!”), but I didn’t want to assume my disinclination to negotiate had nothing to do with it. Plus I don’t know other honors people to discuss it with.

I don’t think people would necessarily hold it against a new attorney if they asked something like “is there any negotiating the salary?” because people just don’t always know things, but agree that after a comment like what you got, it would not be appropriate.

For what it’s worth, when I got offered the job through the honors program the USA scarcely remembered to tell me the salary (they talked for a few minutes and then were like “oh - I suppose I should tell you what it pays”) and I did ask for, like, 20 minutes to talk to my spouse about the offer and even that seemed like a stretch (they were nice about it but clearly expected me to accept on the spot, which I did 20 minutes later. It’s not like I hadn’t discussed this at length my spouse already, it was just my one little expression of independence). So nothing about the offer experience at all encourages negotiation. I think now there’s a rule about holding the offer open for some period, but even that wasn’t the case when I applied and I’d be surprised if the culture had really changed.

Can I ask which office this was re: expectation to accept on the spot?

I had some interviews and didn’t realize this was a norm. I figured I would reasonably take a week or two to think about it after getting any offer. So additionally, if you have any more information on these expectations, whether they are widespread, and what office you got the offer with it’d be helpful. I would hate to the mistake of asking for a week when that’s not acceptable, ha!

Experienced AUSA here. Not even SDNY would literally expect you to accept on the spot. The discussion here is about negotiating your salary amount, not instantaneous acceptance. Two different things. The idea of landing a dream job if fantastic, but you are still entitled to love your spouse more than a United States Attorney on the phone conveying an HR communication. Talk to your family. Think and reflect if you want to. I've never heard anyone anywhere suggest that you are literally expected to accept on the spot.

It is true at many USAOs around the country that many lawyers are prepared to accept on the spot because becoming an AUSA is a pretty cool gig and a fun job, even if you're taking a pay cut, which many experienced lawyers choose to take. But this is a purely personal decision on your part, presumably because you've already talked through the significant issues with your family. Plus, the annoying security clearance process has dragged things out for months anyway. Some offerees don't feel the need to sit around anymore.

[Anonymous User]

p.s. To the last post above which is mine: I guess you won't normally get that call from the USAtty after your clearance. You usually get it before the clearance. So self-correction on my part on that detail. Still, the government is always damned slow to act. The time from my initial application to the call from the USAtty was approximately 4 months.

[Anonymous User]

Is salary negotiable for DOJ honors position offers? Question is specific for AUSA offices but happy to hear from anyone.

My strong impression is that it’s not, although I can’t guarantee that that’s universally true and not just a function of my own reluctance to negotiate. I don’t think there’s any harm at all in asking (politely) but I suspect you should be prepared to hear that it’s not.

(Slightly more technical answer: USAOs set your pay by years of experience and then within that range, by a percentile - for hypothetical example, someone with 2 years of experience can get paid between ~$57k and ~$97k (without locality pay). Each individual office decides what percentile on that range you get paid, and the offices where I’ve worked start you at the 25th percentile within that range, so ~$67k. But I do know of offices in high COL areas that set their baseline percentile higher, like 30 or 35%. Again, my impression is that they generally set that percentile for the whole office and everyone starting gets paid the same percentile of their own grade, so that there isn’t really room for negotiation, but again, I don’t want to be completely dogmatic because I am personally terrible with negotiating.)

I'm an experienced AUSA who was hired not too long ago after many years of practice elsewhere. The idea of negotiating did not even remotely occur to me. I was already near the top of the available salary ranges for AUSAs anyway. When I got the offer from the boss, they explained that the salary offer was the result of a bunch of number-crunching formulas and calculations spit out by the HR folks over which the boss did not have much say. I was already inclined not to negotiate anyway, but in hindsight, that comment alone would have signaled me that negotiations would not be viewed favorably.

Personally, I would not negotiate unless I got a very clear, strong signal from someone (I dunno who) that it is invited.

Anon you’re replying to, and that’s completely fair. I’ve never heard of anyone negotiating and the salary has never been presented to me as open for discussion (when I changed offices, the USA said, “and our locality pay is higher than yours so you’ll get a raise!”), but I didn’t want to assume my disinclination to negotiate had nothing to do with it. Plus I don’t know other honors people to discuss it with.

I don’t think people would necessarily hold it against a new attorney if they asked something like “is there any negotiating the salary?” because people just don’t always know things, but agree that after a comment like what you got, it would not be appropriate.

For what it’s worth, when I got offered the job through the honors program the USA scarcely remembered to tell me the salary (they talked for a few minutes and then were like “oh - I suppose I should tell you what it pays”) and I did ask for, like, 20 minutes to talk to my spouse about the offer and even that seemed like a stretch (they were nice about it but clearly expected me to accept on the spot, which I did 20 minutes later. It’s not like I hadn’t discussed this at length my spouse already, it was just my one little expression of independence). So nothing about the offer experience at all encourages negotiation. I think now there’s a rule about holding the offer open for some period, but even that wasn’t the case when I applied and I’d be surprised if the culture had really changed.

Can I ask which office this was re: expectation to accept on the spot?

I had some interviews and didn’t realize this was a norm. I figured I would reasonably take a week or two to think about it after getting any offer. So additionally, if you have any more information on these expectations, whether they are widespread, and what office you got the offer with it’d be helpful. I would hate to the mistake of asking for a week when that’s not acceptable, ha!

This was one of the USAOs. To the post directly above this one, I think getting hired through the honors program is a little different from getting hired as an experienced attorney (it sounded kind of like you were talking about the latter), just because it’s part of a larger hiring process across DOJ on a set timetable, not simply a hire made when the USAO decides to hire. If you were talking about honors, though, never mind!

To the person who’s post I’ve quoted - I don’t mean to freak you out, and like I think I said, when I applied there was no specific statement that they had to hold the offers open for any length of time. They now say they’ll hold the offer for 14 days so I don’t think they can hold it against you if you actually hold them to that. Especially if you have had a few interviews, it’s completely fair to see how that shakes out.

But certainly at the time I applied, there was very much a culture of immediate acceptance, reported pretty widely on these kinds of forums. I can’t say exactly how much was an actual expectation on the part of the components and how much was an assumption on the part of applicants, who were ready to commit right away. I think they changed the policy to create the 14-day offer in part to address this.

I posted the anecdote in the context of the question about negotiating salary just as a data point about the culture/expectations around the offer. If you’re expected to accept on the spot, you’re certainly not expected to negotiate salary.

(But I didn’t mean to suggest you actually have to accept on the spot. It is worth noting this history just in case you’re dealing with someone who’s been hiring since before the 14-day thing.) (I also feel like fewer people had multiple interviews when I was applying which may have encouraged immediate acceptance? Anyway.)

[Anonymous User]

Has anyone had their references checked yet? ATR specifically but am curious about other sections as well.

[Anonymous User]

2 Questions: Does anyone know when they designate finalists? Or when they contact references? I know they are interviewing into next week but just wanted to check. The next month is about to be so stressful! ATR specifically.

Does anyone know whether the DOJ component interviewers contacting your reference is a sign that a candidate is prospectively moving forward, or if it's routine for all applicants?

[Anonymous User]

I got the distinct impression when I got hired by ATR that acceptance on the spot was expected. That said, I told them I needed a day or two to talk it over with the family, and I took the time - it was just a little awkward, not the end of the world.

Now, more awkward was having to tell the component that hired me real early I was going to take the whole two weeks out of respect for the other components interviewing me. They weren't happy because everyone understood it was a "sure, I'd love to if no one better comes through," and I did end up somewhere else, but that's the risk of moving early for them I guess - and they honored the two weeks. No regrets on my end, but it was awkward.

[Anonymous User]

I know antitrust has conducted at least some reference checks.