DOJ Honors Least Competitive Forum

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DOJ Honors Least Competitive

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:19 am

What are generally the least competitive DOJ Honors Sections? I’ve heard the EOIR is, but I’m applying after a few years of clerking (Dist & COA) and want to maximize my chances. I’m quite interested in Criminal and Tax (Crim), but I wanted to see how I should rank these.

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Re: DOJ Honors Least Competitive

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:52 am

The conventional wisdom is EOIR is less competitive, criminal and civil rights are the most competitive, and some of the more competitive sections won't consider you if you don't rank them #1. Unclear how true that is. However, you are clearly in a position to get a good job of some kind. Make sure you actually want to work for the components you're applying for. DOJ Honors encompasses a lot of different kinds of work.

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Re: DOJ Honors Least Competitive

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:22 am

EOIR is in a pure numbers sense, because it usually hires more attorneys than other components do, and (with all due respect to people who love these places) because it places people into locations like Lumpkin GA, Florence AZ, and Port Isabel TX (lots of more popular big cities as well, but someone's got to work in Lumpkin and probably fewer T14 grads want to). But those jobs are also the OCIJ jobs, which are great for people who know they want to work in immigration law and are willing to do a term clerkship first; I think the positions in DC are more competive. Also, to the extent that EOIR is less interested in traditional markers of prestige, it cares about experience in/commitment to immigration work, so you would have to be competitive on those grounds, or you'd have to be able to sell them on your interest and transferable skills.

I will say that if you have DCt and COA clerkships, you probably have decent credentials. It's very hard to get those jobs without decent grades, and DOJ is often pretty ecumenical about schools. I would say that generally, they're more interested in what you've done and how well you've done than where you went to school (although I'd also say there's a preference for T1, or at least strong regional flagships. I know the list of schools here https://www.justice.gov/legal-careers/law-schools includes SLIP hires as well as Honors hires, but I think it gives you some idea).

The other thing I want to point out is that people get worked up about applying to "DOJ Honors" and maximizing their chances of entry, but you're not applying to work for "DOJ" in a general sense, you're applying to work for a specific component(s). Working for EOIR is going to be really different from working for Antitrust which is going to be really different from working for BOP, and getting hired in one of those components isn't necessarily going to provide a path to moving to another. So EOIR might be the least competitive in the traditional sense, but if what you really want is to work for Crim or Tax, and you don't have an interest in immigration law long term, EOIR isn't going to be a great option for you even if they're more willing to hire you. So I think people are much better off looking at the individual components, what work they do, and how they describe their honors positions, and focusing on making the best application possible to those that match an applicant's interest/skills, rather than whatever will maximize the chance of getting *anything.* It may sound a little naive, but I think people are best off applying to/ranking components based on their genuine interests, rather than trying to game the ranking.

In any case, I have been told that Crim will only hire people who rank them first, but I also think that's a bit overblown and that a good candidate is a good candidate. I also think that Crim and Tax are a relatively good pairing b/c you can make a decent pitch for being legitimately interested in both those things, because I think one of the issues with ranking isn't so much the ranking itself as the essays you write in support of your interests. It may not be that ranking Crim last is an issue, so much as if you rank (say) Civil first and ENRD second and Crim last, it's hard to write convincing essays about why you really want to do all three of those things and Crim ends up unconvinced that you really want to work in Crim (so they just go with people who ranked Crim first and had essays all about how much/why they want to work for Crim).

Gun to my head, I'd rank Crim first and Tax second, and talk in my essays about my deep interest in white collar crime because it allows me to combine my love for both criminal and tax law. I mean, I'd work up something way better than that, but to the extent possible, you want an essay that can show how your interests naturally flow to both areas and how your career so far has prepared you to deal with them. Even if you are genuinely interested in, say, BOP and environmental litigation, it's going to be tougher to talk about both those things together, if that makes any sense. (And maybe you don't have to - you may be a great enough candidate that you can say "I want to do A for these reasons and I want to do B for these reasons" and have no overlap and no one will care; I just think the more you can present a coherent whole in the application, the better.) And then rank whatever else best fits the way you're describing your interests/abilities third (like maybe you can make it all about justice/protecting the little guy and toss in Civill Rights, or maybe Antitrust is a better fit).

I wouldn't rank EOIR just because you think it's less competitive - only do so if the jobs they offer appeal to you.

(sorry for the long rant. anon b/c I did honors and long rant because it's stuff I wish I'd realized when I'd applied.) (edited to add: basically, what the person above me said in about 1/8 the space)

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Re: DOJ Honors Least Competitive

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:10 pm

If you had Dist and COA clerkships, you're necessarily competitive for all but, maybe, Civil Appellate and OSG.

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Re: DOJ Honors Least Competitive

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:58 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:22 am
EOIR is in a pure numbers sense, because it usually hires more attorneys than other components do, and (with all due respect to people who love these places) because it places people into locations like Lumpkin GA, Florence AZ, and Port Isabel TX (lots of more popular big cities as well, but someone's got to work in Lumpkin and probably fewer T14 grads want to). But those jobs are also the OCIJ jobs, which are great for people who know they want to work in immigration law and are willing to do a term clerkship first; I think the positions in DC are more competive. Also, to the extent that EOIR is less interested in traditional markers of prestige, it cares about experience in/commitment to immigration work, so you would have to be competitive on those grounds, or you'd have to be able to sell them on your interest and transferable skills.

I will say that if you have DCt and COA clerkships, you probably have decent credentials. It's very hard to get those jobs without decent grades, and DOJ is often pretty ecumenical about schools. I would say that generally, they're more interested in what you've done and how well you've done than where you went to school (although I'd also say there's a preference for T1, or at least strong regional flagships. I know the list of schools here https://www.justice.gov/legal-careers/law-schools includes SLIP hires as well as Honors hires, but I think it gives you some idea).

The other thing I want to point out is that people get worked up about applying to "DOJ Honors" and maximizing their chances of entry, but you're not applying to work for "DOJ" in a general sense, you're applying to work for a specific component(s). Working for EOIR is going to be really different from working for Antitrust which is going to be really different from working for BOP, and getting hired in one of those components isn't necessarily going to provide a path to moving to another. So EOIR might be the least competitive in the traditional sense, but if what you really want is to work for Crim or Tax, and you don't have an interest in immigration law long term, EOIR isn't going to be a great option for you even if they're more willing to hire you. So I think people are much better off looking at the individual components, what work they do, and how they describe their honors positions, and focusing on making the best application possible to those that match an applicant's interest/skills, rather than whatever will maximize the chance of getting *anything.* It may sound a little naive, but I think people are best off applying to/ranking components based on their genuine interests, rather than trying to game the ranking.

In any case, I have been told that Crim will only hire people who rank them first, but I also think that's a bit overblown and that a good candidate is a good candidate. I also think that Crim and Tax are a relatively good pairing b/c you can make a decent pitch for being legitimately interested in both those things, because I think one of the issues with ranking isn't so much the ranking itself as the essays you write in support of your interests. It may not be that ranking Crim last is an issue, so much as if you rank (say) Civil first and ENRD second and Crim last, it's hard to write convincing essays about why you really want to do all three of those things and Crim ends up unconvinced that you really want to work in Crim (so they just go with people who ranked Crim first and had essays all about how much/why they want to work for Crim).

Gun to my head, I'd rank Crim first and Tax second, and talk in my essays about my deep interest in white collar crime because it allows me to combine my love for both criminal and tax law. I mean, I'd work up something way better than that, but to the extent possible, you want an essay that can show how your interests naturally flow to both areas and how your career so far has prepared you to deal with them. Even if you are genuinely interested in, say, BOP and environmental litigation, it's going to be tougher to talk about both those things together, if that makes any sense. (And maybe you don't have to - you may be a great enough candidate that you can say "I want to do A for these reasons and I want to do B for these reasons" and have no overlap and no one will care; I just think the more you can present a coherent whole in the application, the better.) And then rank whatever else best fits the way you're describing your interests/abilities third (like maybe you can make it all about justice/protecting the little guy and toss in Civill Rights, or maybe Antitrust is a better fit).

I wouldn't rank EOIR just because you think it's less competitive - only do so if the jobs they offer appeal to you.

(sorry for the long rant. anon b/c I did honors and long rant because it's stuff I wish I'd realized when I'd applied.) (edited to add: basically, what the person above me said in about 1/8 the space)
I agree with all of this. Just came off the most recent application cycle. I know many people who ranked tax second who ended up getting an offer. The same is not true for crim. I’d rank Crim first then Tax second. It seems Tax Crim is more competitive than Tax Civil, but that’s probably because this past cycle there were three more positions in tax civil.

I also really want to urge you to apply for the jobs you actually want to have. People get caught up in how competitive the process is (and it is) but it’s also very holistic. I had a DC clerkship in a flyover state and went to a non-T1 school and received an offer in a competitive division. My best advice is to focus a ton of energy on your essays and if you get to the interview round do a ton of mock interviews with other law clerks.

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