BigFed or 2/9/DC Clerkship? Forum
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BigFed or 2/9/DC Clerkship?
I realize I started this thread in the wrong subforum. I’m finishing up a district court clerkship in a prestigious district (SDNY/NDCal/DDC). Just completed interviews with my dream BigFed job (DOJ/SEC/FTC) and with judge on 2/9/DC. I’m afraid choosing one will forever preclude me from pursuing the other later down the road. Please help me choose.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Thu Nov 11, 2021 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BigFed or 2/9/DC Clerkship?
What do you want to do long term? Do you want appellate work? Do you want BigFed long term? If the fed gig is the dream job long term I don’t think it’s a terrible thing just to start the job and not to do the clerkship, but that depends on what a COA clerkship would do for your future goals (more specifically than “look shiny and prestigious,” although that’s not nothing and is fair enough if that’s what you want).
While people do move in and out of fed agencies (feds—>firm and back again usually), I think it’s hard to guarantee that and it’s hard to guarantee that on a specific timeline. I’ve also not seen people leave for clerkships and come back. While some honors gigs are “term” positions (one or two years), many of even those are still intended to put you in a permanent position. So if you took the fed gig and then wanted to leave to clerk, it would be quitting a permanent job and you’d have no guarantee of getting back in when your clerkship was over. (I also don’t think you could get both offers now and defer the feds for a year to do the clerkship, though I suppose it’s worth asking just to be absolutely certain, but pretty sure that’s not a thing.)
Which is a long way of saying if you want to do both, I think you have a better chance if you take the clerkship now and withdraw the BigFed application. You’d still be eligible to reapply through honors after the clerkship (assuming that’s how you’re applying now, and assuming you won’t age out of eligibility otherwise), and I don’t think an agency would hold withdrawing for a clerkship against you for the future - they’d understand that you’re going to have multiple applications out there right now and you might get another offer. Even if it’s a lateral position rather than honors, I don’t think they’d hold withdrawing against you, although you wouldn’t get the auto second bite at the apple for the end of the second clerkship unless the stars truly aligned, timing-wise (you’d have to wait for an opening).
Mind you, there’s no *guarantee* that if you passed up honors this year you’d have the same results with a future application, but I think your chances would be decent. It would probably be largely the same people making the decision and they already think you’re a good candidate because they interviewed you.
If you do end up missing the honors eligibility window, I also don’t think you’d burn any bridges for future lateral positions. You’d just need to get more experience elsewhere to be able to apply later down the road.
I do think the timing could be a bit awkward. If you get the fedgov offer first and you do want to try to clerk, I would be as transparent as possible about having a pending clerkship interview/application, ask for time, and contact the judge. (DOJ at least has to give you 2 weeks to decide but I think there’s still a culture of immediate acceptance so that’s why I’m saying be transparent from the start.) If you get the clerkship offer first, and you know you want to clerk,
I would just accept and withdraw from consideration with the feds. Don’t wait to see what happens with the federal app - I think that looks worse to all concerned than proactively withdrawing.
Again, this doesn’t *guarantee* you’d get another shot at the feds, but I don’t think there’s going to be any way to *guarantee* that. Pretty sure the feds won’t hold an honors gig open for you and while a judge might well defer you to the following term, doing honors for a year and then leaving for a clerkship isn’t a thing that will get you back to the feds. (Caveat: if the fedgov gig is one of the one-year positions with no clear expectation that you’ll stick around, like OCIJ, you could just ask the judge if they’d hire you for a future term instead, but I’m assuming it’s not or you’d have mentioned that.)
I’m showing my bias here, but I will say again that if the fed gig is your dream job and you can get it without the COA, it’s totally fine to skip the COA (there will doubtless be many voices saying that you ALWAYS do the shiny fancy thing because you never KNOW it won’t benefit you in future, and that’s fair enough, but if it’s partly a means to an end to get a certain kind of job and you can get the job without it… I’m just saying going straight to the feds is justifiable, especially if you think you might be a lifer and/or have personal circumstances like not wanting to move a family around or wanting a better salary sooner, although the latter makes more sense if you’re going to a firm). But it sounds like you want to do both and you haven’t mentioned any personal complications. So I’d say take the clerkship now and try for the feds again later, unless the uncertainty of being able to get back in right away would distress you more than the “what if…” of passing on the clerkship.
Assuming you get both offers of course!
While people do move in and out of fed agencies (feds—>firm and back again usually), I think it’s hard to guarantee that and it’s hard to guarantee that on a specific timeline. I’ve also not seen people leave for clerkships and come back. While some honors gigs are “term” positions (one or two years), many of even those are still intended to put you in a permanent position. So if you took the fed gig and then wanted to leave to clerk, it would be quitting a permanent job and you’d have no guarantee of getting back in when your clerkship was over. (I also don’t think you could get both offers now and defer the feds for a year to do the clerkship, though I suppose it’s worth asking just to be absolutely certain, but pretty sure that’s not a thing.)
Which is a long way of saying if you want to do both, I think you have a better chance if you take the clerkship now and withdraw the BigFed application. You’d still be eligible to reapply through honors after the clerkship (assuming that’s how you’re applying now, and assuming you won’t age out of eligibility otherwise), and I don’t think an agency would hold withdrawing for a clerkship against you for the future - they’d understand that you’re going to have multiple applications out there right now and you might get another offer. Even if it’s a lateral position rather than honors, I don’t think they’d hold withdrawing against you, although you wouldn’t get the auto second bite at the apple for the end of the second clerkship unless the stars truly aligned, timing-wise (you’d have to wait for an opening).
Mind you, there’s no *guarantee* that if you passed up honors this year you’d have the same results with a future application, but I think your chances would be decent. It would probably be largely the same people making the decision and they already think you’re a good candidate because they interviewed you.
If you do end up missing the honors eligibility window, I also don’t think you’d burn any bridges for future lateral positions. You’d just need to get more experience elsewhere to be able to apply later down the road.
I do think the timing could be a bit awkward. If you get the fedgov offer first and you do want to try to clerk, I would be as transparent as possible about having a pending clerkship interview/application, ask for time, and contact the judge. (DOJ at least has to give you 2 weeks to decide but I think there’s still a culture of immediate acceptance so that’s why I’m saying be transparent from the start.) If you get the clerkship offer first, and you know you want to clerk,
I would just accept and withdraw from consideration with the feds. Don’t wait to see what happens with the federal app - I think that looks worse to all concerned than proactively withdrawing.
Again, this doesn’t *guarantee* you’d get another shot at the feds, but I don’t think there’s going to be any way to *guarantee* that. Pretty sure the feds won’t hold an honors gig open for you and while a judge might well defer you to the following term, doing honors for a year and then leaving for a clerkship isn’t a thing that will get you back to the feds. (Caveat: if the fedgov gig is one of the one-year positions with no clear expectation that you’ll stick around, like OCIJ, you could just ask the judge if they’d hire you for a future term instead, but I’m assuming it’s not or you’d have mentioned that.)
I’m showing my bias here, but I will say again that if the fed gig is your dream job and you can get it without the COA, it’s totally fine to skip the COA (there will doubtless be many voices saying that you ALWAYS do the shiny fancy thing because you never KNOW it won’t benefit you in future, and that’s fair enough, but if it’s partly a means to an end to get a certain kind of job and you can get the job without it… I’m just saying going straight to the feds is justifiable, especially if you think you might be a lifer and/or have personal circumstances like not wanting to move a family around or wanting a better salary sooner, although the latter makes more sense if you’re going to a firm). But it sounds like you want to do both and you haven’t mentioned any personal complications. So I’d say take the clerkship now and try for the feds again later, unless the uncertainty of being able to get back in right away would distress you more than the “what if…” of passing on the clerkship.
Assuming you get both offers of course!
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Re: BigFed or 2/9/DC Clerkship?
OP here. The thoughtful response is much appreciated. To clarify, I applied as a lateral (spent a couple years at a firm after law school), not through the honors program. I do want to be a lifer. Also thankfully, no complications. No commitments/spouse/kids tying me to a specific location.
And both parties are informed of the other pending applications. I wish I could do both, but I get we can’t have it all.
And both parties are informed of the other pending applications. I wish I could do both, but I get we can’t have it all.
- Elston Gunn
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Re: BigFed or 2/9/DC Clerkship?
While fancy clerkships have a bunch nice side benefits, their main purpose is to help you get the job or jobs that you really want. I don’t really see the point of turning down your dream career job for a term clerkship, as enjoyable and beneficial as it might be.
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Re: BigFed or 2/9/DC Clerkship?
Anon from above - ah, I assumed it was honors just because it’s honors season right now. To be honest then I might personally be more inclined to take the fedgov gig, but that’s my bias toward locking down a permanent job at this point. But they’re both great options and I’m sure you’ll have a great outcome either way!
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Re: BigFed or 2/9/DC Clerkship?
I would still say the clerkship. You’ve never worked at the Fed job and you can’t know for sure you’ll never need or want to leave. Chances are you will leave at some point; most people do, for money, for a change, because they do eventually have complications that require them to relocate, etc. Unless you’ve climbed the ladder in government to a fairly senior position, the circuit clerkship will still be helpful down the road if you try to leave. The only way I think it would not be helpful is if your district court gig was with a very high profile judge already. Otherwise, I think it’s very likely the circuit clerkship will be beneficial for exits.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:03 amI do want to be a lifer. Also thankfully, no complications. No commitments/spouse/kids tying me to a specific location.
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Re: BigFed or 2/9/DC Clerkship?
I think the above can be true, but it varies a lot. There are a lot of lifers. And depending what you do, your future job prospects will depend a lot more on your practice experience than having another clerkship.
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Re: BigFed or 2/9/DC Clerkship?
I think I’m just skeptical that someone a few years out of school, with no current family responsibilities, and who genuinely wants the experience of a circuit clerkship, will actually end up being a lifer in a federal agency (even if they think they will now). It’s possible, of course, but I think much more likely the OP exits on a normal timetable (5-10 years, say). And I do think the COA clerkship would be a good career move, besides apparently being something the OP would really like to do.
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Re: BigFed or 2/9/DC Clerkship?
Probably depends on the agency.
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Re: BigFed or 2/9/DC Clerkship?
OP here. This was my initial lean. While I wish to be a lifer, I know that things can change. But I am concerned that if I don’t take the BigFed now, despite genuinely expressing in my interview that it is my end goal, it will be held against me later on. Also, given my credentials, I consider myself extremely lucky to have gotten interviews from either place. Had I chance-ed myself here on TLS, I would have been utterly destroyed. Hence, I recognize I may not get either opportunity again.lawfan2012 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 10:05 pmI think I’m just skeptical that someone a few years out of school, with no current family responsibilities, and who genuinely wants the experience of a circuit clerkship, will actually end up being a lifer in a federal agency (even if they think they will now). It’s possible, of course, but I think much more likely the OP exits on a normal timetable (5-10 years, say). And I do think the COA clerkship would be a good career move, besides apparently being something the OP would really like to do.
By the way, thanks all for weighing in.
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Re: BigFed or 2/9/DC Clerkship?
I think you really can’t go wrong here honestly. Either would be great. If you think you were very lucky to get the fed interview, I would probably lean toward taking the fed job if you get both offers.
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Re: BigFed or 2/9/DC Clerkship?
OP, what did you end up doing? I’m in the same boat and am so torn…
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Re: BigFed or 2/9/DC Clerkship?
If BigFed is the dream job and you think you might not get another bite at the apple with your credentials then I suggest taking BigFed now. You would regret a lifetime of not having your dream job much more than not doing a one-year clerkship. That said, I suspect you might not be giving your credentials a fair appraisal. Seems like if you have a prestigious district court clerkship and interest from BigFed/appellate judges then you probably are more competitive than you are giving yourself credit for.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:55 pmOP here. This was my initial lean. While I wish to be a lifer, I know that things can change. But I am concerned that if I don’t take the BigFed now, despite genuinely expressing in my interview that it is my end goal, it will be held against me later on. Also, given my credentials, I consider myself extremely lucky to have gotten interviews from either place. Had I chance-ed myself here on TLS, I would have been utterly destroyed. Hence, I recognize I may not get either opportunity again.lawfan2012 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 10:05 pmI think I’m just skeptical that someone a few years out of school, with no current family responsibilities, and who genuinely wants the experience of a circuit clerkship, will actually end up being a lifer in a federal agency (even if they think they will now). It’s possible, of course, but I think much more likely the OP exits on a normal timetable (5-10 years, say). And I do think the COA clerkship would be a good career move, besides apparently being something the OP would really like to do.
By the way, thanks all for weighing in.
Best of luck.
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