Paths to DHS? Forum

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forthecause

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Paths to DHS?

Post by forthecause » Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:09 pm

There’s frustratingly little info on here regarding DHS, so I thought I’d see if anyone reading this has any insight. My ultimate goal is DHS (ICE). How difficult will that be coming from a ~50 rank law school, and what should my plan of attack be? I know there’s the secretary honors program but I assume that’s too competitive…? So other than that, should I be trying to go JAG or criminal prosecution first? Are those the right things to look to as springboards to DHS? How difficult would it be to transition from each of those to DHS? And finally, how difficult would it be to get even those from an average law school? Am I gunna need to be top 10% of my class to eventually get DHS?

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Re: Paths to DHS?

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:13 pm

Man, say what you will about big law, but actively aspiring to work for ICE is next level evil shit. Way to go.

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Re: Paths to DHS?

Post by Barrred » Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:54 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:13 pm
Man, say what you will about big law, but actively aspiring to work for ICE is next level evil shit. Way to go.
^ Ignore this brave anonymous poster.

If I were you, I'd apply for the Honors Program, and as a backup apply to local DA's offices to get criminal experience. Don't go JAG if the military is not your ultimate goal, you wont necessarily get any criminal experience as a JAG officer for 3-4 years, and its a different criminal system that's not directly transferable to civilian federal criminal prosecution jobs.

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Re: Paths to DHS?

Post by forthecause » Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:29 pm

Haha I expected to get at least one of those messages.
Well, I’m currently in the military and talked to a JAG yesterday who made a pretty solid case for being able to get a good amount of trial experience in the first few years - not as much as civilian prosecution of course, though. But you don’t think that the federal to federal advantage JAG brings outweighs the trial experience of prosecution? Also, any info on the competitiveness of DHS? Had an unfortunate LSAT issue and my 170+ PTs turned into a mediocre real test score without the ability to retake. So am I going to have to get manga cum laude, for example?

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Re: Paths to DHS?

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:51 pm

i missed the point in this convo where you brave gentlemen were using your real names

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Re: Paths to DHS?

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:50 pm

Keep in mind that a lot of DHS/ICE jobs aren't criminal prosecution jobs. Representing the US in removal proceedings is immigration law, not criminal, and immigration court is very unlike standard federal court. A lot of the other litigation experience will be more civil stuff related to the general counsel office - contracts, personnel/employment, ethics/FOIA - and there will be a lot of attorney advisor stuff (advising on agency policy ranging from actual immigration enforcement to, again, employment/personnel and contracts stuff) rather than pure litigation. Not saying that criminal prosecution is a terrible path to follow, but it's probably not really what you'd be doing in DHS/ICE.

I agree that you should try for DHS Honors - it's competitive, but I don't think school rank is usually as important for federal jobs (with the exception of a few very elite positions) as your grades and what you do while in school.

Though it's true that you can't guarantee relevant experience, JAG isn't a bad option - I wouldn't suggest it just for the credential, but if you're in the military now you're probably better positioned than many. It's pretty competitive, too, though.

Go through USAjobs and look for DHS/ICE positions and figure out what they're actually going to ask you to do. If you're interested in the removal proceeding stuff, I would go pure immigration law rather than criminal prosecution. If you're interested in the agency more generally, some more general civil jobs could actually transfer relatively well.

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Re: Paths to DHS?

Post by SkateboardT » Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:53 am

I mean...I always figured attorneys like this existed, but never thought I'd come across one in real life.

Anyway, DOJ seems to always have a standing opening for attorneys to work in EOIR. This makes me think they'll take almost anybody with relatively decent stats. I imagine the positions are much less competitive because there are so many openings and fewer attorneys who actually want to do that work.

Edit: Just realized you seem to still be in law school (have just started/not yet started). You're getting pretty far ahead of yourself right now. Just work hard and try to get the best grades possible, your career aspirations might change, they might not. At the end of the day, attorneys aren't clamoring for immigration jobs so don't stress over it.

As far as your attitude re: trial work goes, make sure you understand what your job actually entails, what the day to day is like, and whether it's actually going to be the experience you want.

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Re: Paths to DHS?

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:13 am

SkateboardT wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:53 am
Anyway, DOJ seems to always have a standing opening for attorneys to work in EOIR. This makes me think they'll take almost anybody with relatively decent stats. I imagine the positions are much less competitive because there are so many openings and fewer attorneys who actually want to do that work.
DOJ honors has a lot of EOIR positions, because they’re 2 year clerkships clerking for an immigration judge and there are judges all over the country. Other than that, I don’t think EOIR hires any more often than any other component. Most EOIR positions I see advertised are immigration judge gigs, and ICE posts just as much if not more often. And EOIR clerkships are useful gigs for anyone who wants to do immigration, whether representing the government or representing immigrants. I’d say they’re jobs that are maybe less demanding for grades/school pedigree, but will want to see pertinent experience and commitment to the cause. (Obviously the OP doesn’t want to represent immigrants, but the government experience is really helpful for people who do, which I think is actually quite a lot of law students. In practice someone clerking for an immigration judge is probably stuck denying most cases, but in theory working for the IJ is different from working for OPLA and actively arguing for removal.)

Not commenting on whether the OP should take this career path, just responding to their questions.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Paths to DHS?

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:40 am

forthecause wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:09 pm
There’s frustratingly little info on here regarding DHS, so I thought I’d see if anyone reading this has any insight. My ultimate goal is DHS (ICE). How difficult will that be coming from a ~50 rank law school, and what should my plan of attack be? I know there’s the secretary honors program but I assume that’s too competitive…? So other than that, should I be trying to go JAG or criminal prosecution first? Are those the right things to look to as springboards to DHS? How difficult would it be to transition from each of those to DHS? And finally, how difficult would it be to get even those from an average law school? Am I gunna need to be top 10% of my class to eventually get DHS?
What year are you? I am a 3L at a T50 that just got in. I also applied to DHS Honors and got an interview but got in through another program,. My recommendation would be doing at least 2 internships with ICE OPLA if that is your final goal. Government cares a lot about previous government experience. I interned for half a summer and a full semester. For stats, I am top 25% with relevant coursework.

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forthecause

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Re: Paths to DHS?

Post by forthecause » Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:25 pm

Interesting…what else is there besides secretary honors to get straight into dhs? I’m applying to schools rn btw. Is it difficult to get these internships? And with those internships under my belt and prior military service would it be difficult for me to get straight into dhs through one of the (apparently multiple) paths?

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Re: Paths to DHS?

Post by forthecause » Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:29 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:13 am
SkateboardT wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:53 am
Anyway, DOJ seems to always have a standing opening for attorneys to work in EOIR. This makes me think they'll take almost anybody with relatively decent stats. I imagine the positions are much less competitive because there are so many openings and fewer attorneys who actually want to do that work.
DOJ honors has a lot of EOIR positions, because they’re 2 year clerkships clerking for an immigration judge and there are judges all over the country. Other than that, I don’t think EOIR hires any more often than any other component. Most EOIR positions I see advertised are immigration judge gigs, and ICE posts just as much if not more often. And EOIR clerkships are useful gigs for anyone who wants to do immigration, whether representing the government or representing immigrants. I’d say they’re jobs that are maybe less demanding for grades/school pedigree, but will want to see pertinent experience and commitment to the cause. (Obviously the OP doesn’t want to represent immigrants, but the government experience is really helpful for people who do, which I think is actually quite a lot of law students. In practice someone clerking for an immigration judge is probably stuck denying most cases, but in theory working for the IJ is different from working for OCR and actively arguing for removal.)

Not commenting on whether the OP should take this career path, just responding to their questions.
Ok, interesting. Hadn’t heard of EOIR. I’ll have to look into that. Is it your impression then that it’s not too difficult to secure some type of honors program or direct to doj/dhs role? Would that require certain law school ranking / extracurricular experience / internship / class ranking…?

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Re: Paths to DHS?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:51 am

forthecause wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:29 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:13 am
SkateboardT wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:53 am
Anyway, DOJ seems to always have a standing opening for attorneys to work in EOIR. This makes me think they'll take almost anybody with relatively decent stats. I imagine the positions are much less competitive because there are so many openings and fewer attorneys who actually want to do that work.
DOJ honors has a lot of EOIR positions, because they’re 2 year clerkships clerking for an immigration judge and there are judges all over the country. Other than that, I don’t think EOIR hires any more often than any other component. Most EOIR positions I see advertised are immigration judge gigs, and ICE posts just as much if not more often. And EOIR clerkships are useful gigs for anyone who wants to do immigration, whether representing the government or representing immigrants. I’d say they’re jobs that are maybe less demanding for grades/school pedigree, but will want to see pertinent experience and commitment to the cause. (Obviously the OP doesn’t want to represent immigrants, but the government experience is really helpful for people who do, which I think is actually quite a lot of law students. In practice someone clerking for an immigration judge is probably stuck denying most cases, but in theory working for the IJ is different from working for OCR and actively arguing for removal.)

Not commenting on whether the OP should take this career path, just responding to their questions.
Ok, interesting. Hadn’t heard of EOIR. I’ll have to look into that. Is it your impression then that it’s not too difficult to secure some type of honors program or direct to doj/dhs role? Would that require certain law school ranking / extracurricular experience / internship / class ranking…?
Different person, but: federal honors programs are extremely selective, even at a less prestigious agency like DHS. DOJ receives thousands of applications per year for 100+ slots. Federal honors programs essentially require previous federal government internship or externship experience (ideally with the agency you’re applying to) and are grade-sensitive. DHS Honors also has a hard GPA minimum of 3.5 or top third of your class, which is more selective than many other honors programs.

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Re: Paths to DHS?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:56 am

Not the T50 anon above, but alternate paths to go straight into DHS: either a regular job posting that accepts entry level applicants (this can happen, though many jobs will want at least one year of experience), or some other kind of special entry-level positing - Presidential Management Fellowship is one option but probably not what the T50 anon is talking about (based on timeline), or there is something called Pathways (I think) that I don’t see discussed much and don’t hear of law students actually following, but is technically an option. Sign up to get relevant USAjobs postings sent to you daily and you’ll get a sense of how many/what kinds of openings there are.

It is kind of impossible to say how hard it is to get an honors/direct to DHS gig. It’s definitely possible, but hard to say exactly how likely at this point when everything about your application is hypothetical. You can go look at the requirements for the honors program here: https://www.dhs.gov/homeland-security-c ... -attorneys. Generally, school rank (as long as it’s respectable) isn’t as important as having decent grades, getting pertinent experience, and showing dedication to the mission.

EOIR is part of DOJ and is an option as part of DOJ Honors - probably less competitive re: stats/school than other DOJ Honors positions because they’re temporary gigs (clerkships) and there are usually more of them to fill, but again, they want to see experience focused on immigration law.

Internships aren’t usually that hard to get, in part because they’re usually unpaid. You have to be on top of timelines and actively search out the information for applying and so on. Paid federal internships tend to be much more competitive for obvious reasons (not sure if ICE/DHS do paid internships though).

If you gun for this throughout school you probably have a decent shot - while there are more applicants than some of the posts here might suggest, those posts also make clear that the jobs aren’t for everyone. So I wouldn’t say these the *most* difficult jobs for law students to get. But it’s still hard to guarantee something so specific (as opposed to something broader like “biglaw” (from the right school) or “prosecution” or “family law”). So to the extent you’re looking for a guarantee or specific odds, no one can really give that to you.

(Also, thinking specifically about what you want to do in the agency is probably helpful.)

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Re: Paths to DHS?

Post by forthecause » Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:15 am

And is it your understanding that if I’m not able to get an ICE honors slot that one of those other DHS gigs would be my best bet if being able to get into ICE within a few years? Or would something else be more conducive to that, such as private immigration law for example or other federal govt work?

Also, by “respectable school,” do you mean T50? T100? Given that grades are so important, wouldn’t someone at the lower ends of one of those categories need to be pretty much tip top of the class? If applicants from T14 are required to be 3.5/top 33% of their class, seems like top 10% would be required for those from worse schools.

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Re: Paths to DHS?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:14 am

forthecause wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:15 am
And is it your understanding that if I’m not able to get an ICE honors slot that one of those other DHS gigs would be my best bet if being able to get into ICE within a few years? Or would something else be more conducive to that, such as private immigration law for example or other federal govt work?

Also, by “respectable school,” do you mean T50? T100? Given that grades are so important, wouldn’t someone at the lower ends of one of those categories need to be pretty much tip top of the class? If applicants from T14 are required to be 3.5/top 33% of their class, seems like top 10% would be required for those from worse schools.
This is all pretty fact-specific and contingent on your personal circumstances. If you don't get a DHS (not ICE) Honors slot, then working for the same agency is generally the way to go - BUT if you want to be in immigration court arguing for removal, and you end up litigating DHS employee complaints for 5 years, you're not really going to be getting pertinent experience. It might be that the agency would work to give you that opportunity, but it might not (I just don't know what their culture is like about that kind of thing). So private immigration work might be the way to go, or other federal work, but it really depends what your options are at that point. (Also, I think going into private immigration work when you know you want to work for ICE arguing removal would be culturally very difficult. No one representing immigrants will want to hire you.)

When I say respectable, here I really mean avoid the bottom of the barrel T3s and T4s. It can depend on where you are and what schools are out there and where the employer has hired from. If you go look for lawyers on Linkedin who work for ICE, they don't seem to be very school sensitive. And re: grades, most of the time the feds are pretty ecumenical about school. When they say 3.5/top 33%, that applies to everyone; that isn't the T14 scale and everyone else faces a tougher requirement. Hiring tends to be relatively holistic so grades matter but they're not determinative.

It's good that you're thinking about how to get where you want to go, but I feel like you want more concrete answers and a more specific path than anyone can really give you. Yes, absolutely seek out pertinent experience in law school. Yes, aim for DHS honors. But you're also just going to have to go to law school, see how you do, and see what you can make of it. If things people are suggesting here don't work out, then you assess the options you have at that point and see what you can do with them. (Also, reach out to any ICE attorneys you can find that you have any connection with - same undergrad, same law school, same military experience, they're your aunt's next door neighbor's son-in-law, whatever - and ask them about their path and how best to get into ICE.)

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Re: Paths to DHS?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:33 am

forthecause wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:15 am
And is it your understanding that if I’m not able to get an ICE honors slot that one of those other DHS gigs would be my best bet if being able to get into ICE within a few years? Or would something else be more conducive to that, such as private immigration law for example or other federal govt work?

Also, by “respectable school,” do you mean T50? T100? Given that grades are so important, wouldn’t someone at the lower ends of one of those categories need to be pretty much tip top of the class? If applicants from T14 are required to be 3.5/top 33% of their class, seems like top 10% would be required for those from worse schools.
I'm the anon poster above who mentioned above they got in. DHS is grade dependent for the initial entrance barrier, you need to have a 3.5 or top 1/3 for DHS honors. If you do not meet this grade requirement, they will not consider you no matter how much they like you. After grades, they care about relevant coursework and relevant internships. The program I'm in is something you will have to ask the office about at the end of the internship. It is only for interns and the office will talk to you about it if they like you enough. You cannot apply for it yourself.

As others mentioned, the work is tough and you have to really distinguish yourself. I know some people who got in without ever interning for DHS or any other prosecutorial position. I also know others who did not get an offer with DHS even though they interned with DHS and DOJ.

On a side note, DHS Honors is harder to get than ICE. DHS will be a lot less trial work and more regulatory work. They hire fewer people, and they prefer people who have worked at headquarters.

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Re: Paths to DHS?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:50 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:51 am
forthecause wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:29 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:13 am
SkateboardT wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:53 am
Anyway, DOJ seems to always have a standing opening for attorneys to work in EOIR. This makes me think they'll take almost anybody with relatively decent stats. I imagine the positions are much less competitive because there are so many openings and fewer attorneys who actually want to do that work.
DOJ honors has a lot of EOIR positions, because they’re 2 year clerkships clerking for an immigration judge and there are judges all over the country. Other than that, I don’t think EOIR hires any more often than any other component. Most EOIR positions I see advertised are immigration judge gigs, and ICE posts just as much if not more often. And EOIR clerkships are useful gigs for anyone who wants to do immigration, whether representing the government or representing immigrants. I’d say they’re jobs that are maybe less demanding for grades/school pedigree, but will want to see pertinent experience and commitment to the cause. (Obviously the OP doesn’t want to represent immigrants, but the government experience is really helpful for people who do, which I think is actually quite a lot of law students. In practice someone clerking for an immigration judge is probably stuck denying most cases, but in theory working for the IJ is different from working for OCR and actively arguing for removal.)

Not commenting on whether the OP should take this career path, just responding to their questions.
Ok, interesting. Hadn’t heard of EOIR. I’ll have to look into that. Is it your impression then that it’s not too difficult to secure some type of honors program or direct to doj/dhs role? Would that require certain law school ranking / extracurricular experience / internship / class ranking…?
Different person, but: federal honors programs are extremely selective, even at a less prestigious agency like DHS. DOJ receives thousands of applications per year for 100+ slots. Federal honors programs essentially require previous federal government internship or externship experience (ideally with the agency you’re applying to) and are grade-sensitive. DHS Honors also has a hard GPA minimum of 3.5 or top third of your class, which is more selective than many other honors programs.
Since the OP is military it is actually not nearly as competitive. They give hiring preference to military members and veterans. For example, I know a veteran who recently got hired by the IRS honors program who had zero tax experience. He was towards the top of the class and did law review but he straight up told me it was mainly thanks to being a veteran that he got the job. I think you stand a very good chance of getting into the EOIR clerkship if you have good grades/extracurriculars/etc.

And if you go to law school in a city with an immigration court, definitely consider doing their unpaid internship program (if you are a 1L you need to apply to the DOJ SLIP program this summer--it's full-time and paid, and EOIR usually has a couple positions available in their OGC/OCAHO and there's also OIL in the Civil Division (immigration litigation and immigration appeals -- https://www.justice.gov/legal-careers/s ... nents#EOIR -- but you would have to apply 1L summer for the 2L summer position).

The immigration court internship would basically the same thing as the work you would be doing in the clerkship and the DOJ SLIP position would be doing more litigation-type work. I believe the FBI also offers a separate paid summer internship for 2Ls (which they confusingly call their Summer Honors Program). FBI also usually has slots available in the DOJ Attorney Honors Program, and you are allowed to apply to three components (for example, you could apply to EOIR, FBI, and Civil Division with first preference to immigration litigation and appeals).

Also note that EOIR is a 2-year clerkship and DOES NOT offer permanent employment in DOJ, BUT it makes you eligible to reapply to most honors programs (so for example, you could do EOIR for 2 years and then apply to the DHS Honors Program, which would make you super competitive with both your military experience and your EOIR clerkship). The other Honors Programs usually lead to permanent employment (but not always).

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Re: Paths to DHS?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:55 pm

forthecause wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:25 pm
Interesting…what else is there besides secretary honors to get straight into dhs? I’m applying to schools rn btw. Is it difficult to get these internships? And with those internships under my belt and prior military service would it be difficult for me to get straight into dhs through one of the (apparently multiple) paths?
If you aren't even in law school yet, you are way too early. You should focus on getting the best grades that you can. Try to get onto law review/secondary journal/mock trial/moot court if you can, since those will make you more competitive (obviously not all of them, pick one or two). After your first semester grades come out you can apply to 1L summer internships. After second semester grades come out and you have your summer internship secured you can apply to the various 2L summer internship programs. There are TONS in the government, both paid (more competitive) and unpaid (slightly less competitive). There are also plenty of part-time volunteer positions available during the school year if wherever your law school is located has local agencies/field offices. You should apply to attorney honors programs during your 2L summer.

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Re: Paths to DHS?

Post by forthecause » Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:33 am
forthecause wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:15 am
And is it your understanding that if I’m not able to get an ICE honors slot that one of those other DHS gigs would be my best bet if being able to get into ICE within a few years? Or would something else be more conducive to that, such as private immigration law for example or other federal govt work?

Also, by “respectable school,” do you mean T50? T100? Given that grades are so important, wouldn’t someone at the lower ends of one of those categories need to be pretty much tip top of the class? If applicants from T14 are required to be 3.5/top 33% of their class, seems like top 10% would be required for those from worse schools.
I'm the anon poster above who mentioned above they got in. DHS is grade dependent for the initial entrance barrier, you need to have a 3.5 or top 1/3 for DHS honors. If you do not meet this grade requirement, they will not consider you no matter how much they like you. After grades, they care about relevant coursework and relevant internships. The program I'm in is something you will have to ask the office about at the end of the internship. It is only for interns and the office will talk to you about it if they like you enough. You cannot apply for it yourself.

As others mentioned, the work is tough and you have to really distinguish yourself. I know some people who got in without ever interning for DHS or any other prosecutorial position. I also know others who did not get an offer with DHS even though they interned with DHS and DOJ.

On a side note, DHS Honors is harder to get than ICE. DHS will be a lot less trial work and more regulatory work. They hire fewer people, and they prefer people who have worked at headquarters.
Wait, you said that dhs honors is harder to get than ice? Isn’t ice part of dhs honors? I’m asking about ice in particular. Does that change anything you’ve said?

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Re: Paths to DHS?

Post by forthecause » Mon Nov 01, 2021 8:48 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:56 am
Not the T50 anon above, but alternate paths to go straight into DHS: either a regular job posting that accepts entry level applicants (this can happen, though many jobs will want at least one year of experience), or some other kind of special entry-level positing - Presidential Management Fellowship is one option but probably not what the T50 anon is talking about (based on timeline), or there is something called Pathways (I think) that I don’t see discussed much and don’t hear of law students actually following, but is technically an option. Sign up to get relevant USAjobs postings sent to you daily and you’ll get a sense of how many/what kinds of openings there are.

It is kind of impossible to say how hard it is to get an honors/direct to DHS gig. It’s definitely possible, but hard to say exactly how likely at this point when everything about your application is hypothetical. You can go look at the requirements for the honors program here: https://www.dhs.gov/homeland-security-c ... -attorneys. Generally, school rank (as long as it’s respectable) isn’t as important as having decent grades, getting pertinent experience, and showing dedication to the mission.

EOIR is part of DOJ and is an option as part of DOJ Honors - probably less competitive re: stats/school than other DOJ Honors positions because they’re temporary gigs (clerkships) and there are usually more of them to fill, but again, they want to see experience focused on immigration law.

Internships aren’t usually that hard to get, in part because they’re usually unpaid. You have to be on top of timelines and actively search out the information for applying and so on. Paid federal internships tend to be much more competitive for obvious reasons (not sure if ICE/DHS do paid internships though).

If you gun for this throughout school you probably have a decent shot - while there are more applicants than some of the posts here might suggest, those posts also make clear that the jobs aren’t for everyone. So I wouldn’t say these the *most* difficult jobs for law students to get. But it’s still hard to guarantee something so specific (as opposed to something broader like “biglaw” (from the right school) or “prosecution” or “family law”). So to the extent you’re looking for a guarantee or specific odds, no one can really give that to you.

(Also, thinking specifically about what you want to do in the agency is probably helpful.)
Thanks for all the info. Great stuff. One last thing I haven’t been able to find though: what are the hours like at ICE and the rest of DHS?

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Re: Paths to DHS?

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Nov 03, 2021 2:48 pm

forthecause wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 8:48 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:56 am
Not the T50 anon above, but alternate paths to go straight into DHS: either a regular job posting that accepts entry level applicants (this can happen, though many jobs will want at least one year of experience), or some other kind of special entry-level positing - Presidential Management Fellowship is one option but probably not what the T50 anon is talking about (based on timeline), or there is something called Pathways (I think) that I don’t see discussed much and don’t hear of law students actually following, but is technically an option. Sign up to get relevant USAjobs postings sent to you daily and you’ll get a sense of how many/what kinds of openings there are.

It is kind of impossible to say how hard it is to get an honors/direct to DHS gig. It’s definitely possible, but hard to say exactly how likely at this point when everything about your application is hypothetical. You can go look at the requirements for the honors program here: https://www.dhs.gov/homeland-security-c ... -attorneys. Generally, school rank (as long as it’s respectable) isn’t as important as having decent grades, getting pertinent experience, and showing dedication to the mission.

EOIR is part of DOJ and is an option as part of DOJ Honors - probably less competitive re: stats/school than other DOJ Honors positions because they’re temporary gigs (clerkships) and there are usually more of them to fill, but again, they want to see experience focused on immigration law.

Internships aren’t usually that hard to get, in part because they’re usually unpaid. You have to be on top of timelines and actively search out the information for applying and so on. Paid federal internships tend to be much more competitive for obvious reasons (not sure if ICE/DHS do paid internships though).

If you gun for this throughout school you probably have a decent shot - while there are more applicants than some of the posts here might suggest, those posts also make clear that the jobs aren’t for everyone. So I wouldn’t say these the *most* difficult jobs for law students to get. But it’s still hard to guarantee something so specific (as opposed to something broader like “biglaw” (from the right school) or “prosecution” or “family law”). So to the extent you’re looking for a guarantee or specific odds, no one can really give that to you.

(Also, thinking specifically about what you want to do in the agency is probably helpful.)
Thanks for all the info. Great stuff. One last thing I haven’t been able to find though: what are the hours like at ICE and the rest of DHS?
AFAIK most if not all government attorney positions are 40 hours a week with potential for some overtime, which you usually get made up for with extra vacation/comp time.

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Re: Paths to DHS?

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 2:48 pm
AFAIK most if not all government attorney positions are 40 hours a week with potential for some overtime, which you usually get made up for with extra vacation/comp time.
I don't know specifically what an OPLA attorney's hours look like, but the above is pretty much untrue for any litigating position (AUSA, main justice, IRS, SEC, etc.). I believe it's true for lawyers processing VA benefits and Social Security claims, and there are probably others, but it's not going to be true for trial attorneys.

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Re: Paths to DHS?

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:06 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 2:48 pm
AFAIK most if not all government attorney positions are 40 hours a week with potential for some overtime, which you usually get made up for with extra vacation/comp time.
I don't know specifically what an OPLA attorney's hours look like, but the above is pretty much untrue for any litigating position (AUSA, main justice, IRS, SEC, etc.). I believe it's true for lawyers processing VA benefits and Social Security claims, and there are probably others, but it's not going to be true for trial attorneys.
It was like that for litigation sections at both DOJ and FAA, where I interned. But they were litigation support, not trial attorneys. Although they did do a lot of the legwork for the litigation (depositions, briefs, etc.), they were primarily subject matter experts and an extra pair of hands for pre-trial matters. And from what I have heard it is also like that for pretty much any non-trial attorney OGC position (which is a large portion of the positions/rotations for non-DOJ honors programs, from my understanding and from my various honors program interviews last year [clerking now, so applying again])

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Re: Paths to DHS?

Post by forthecause » Thu Nov 04, 2021 11:09 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:06 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 2:48 pm
AFAIK most if not all government attorney positions are 40 hours a week with potential for some overtime, which you usually get made up for with extra vacation/comp time.
I don't know specifically what an OPLA attorney's hours look like, but the above is pretty much untrue for any litigating position (AUSA, main justice, IRS, SEC, etc.). I believe it's true for lawyers processing VA benefits and Social Security claims, and there are probably others, but it's not going to be true for trial attorneys.
Yeah I’m tracking, but I’ve also heard that immigration court trials are a bit of a different breed of trial and that the ICE attorneys might also be getting away the 40 hour weeks. Not sure if that’s true though.

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Re: Paths to DHS?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Nov 04, 2021 11:31 am

Yeah, that might well be the case. Immigration courts have crazy backlogs but I don’t know how that translates into hours, and I’d bet most OGC attorneys (attorney advisors rather than trial attorneys) have reasonable hours. But I wanted to push back on the generalization about all government attorneys because it’s simply not true. To be clear, we’re not talking big law hours, at least not on a consistent basis. But especially, the “capped at 40 and if you go over you get it back in comp time/leave” is not at all universal.

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