Paths to DHS? Forum

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Anonymous User
Posts: 428174
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Paths to DHS?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 11:31 am
Yeah, that might well be the case. Immigration courts have crazy backlogs but I don’t know how that translates into hours, and I’d bet most OGC attorneys (attorney advisors rather than trial attorneys) have reasonable hours. But I wanted to push back on the generalization about all government attorneys because it’s simply not true. To be clear, we’re not talking big law hours, at least not on a consistent basis. But especially, the “capped at 40 and if you go over you get it back in comp time/leave” is not at all universal.
Anonymous poster who posted about 40 hours being the norm here.

That makes perfect sense, thanks for clarifying. I have no interest in being a trial attorney (although I'll take what I can get for my first federal position!), so I have little experience with what work looks like for them. I do know a couple of AUSAs in the city my law school is in and they seem extremely busy, but they also had the time to co-teach a course at my law school, so it can't be so crazy busy that they don't have work-life balance. They both have supervisor roles and are probably GS-15 (with a high locality pay) so they certainly can't be teaching because they need the money. And the attorney-advisors I worked with at DOJ/FAA did often work 50-hour weeks or so but then they got to take off FOREVER for Christmas and summer. So I'm fairly certain it averages out to 40/week in the end, even if you might work overtime for big trials or if you have a large caseload. But then again my experience was only in two agencies' headquarters offices. Different agencies/components/regional field offices may have different experiences.

Also, in response to: Also, by “respectable school,” do you mean T50? T100? Given that grades are so important, wouldn’t someone at the lower ends of one of those categories need to be pretty much tip top of the class? If applicants from T14 are required to be 3.5/top 33% of their class, seems like top 10% would be required for those from worse schools. ...

My school is bottom tier (one of the "No. 147-193" that U.S. News doesn't even bother to give a ranking to). I am ranked 15th in my class (top 8%), did Law Review, interned at DOJ twice (one of which was a SLIP position over 2L summer), externed for a federal district judge, did a clinic, and did Jessup international moot court. I also interned at FAA, but that was after honors program interviews so it didn't play into my candidacy. I was competitive enough to get interviews with NSA, DHS, DEA (through DOJ), HUD, and a legal fellowship related to my DOJ experience last year, but I didn't make any second-round interviews and didn't get an offer from DEA (they only do one round). I did not get a single interview for any of the 100+ federal clerkships I applied to. I am fairly positive that all of my stats were necessary to get honors program interviews (although possibly having law review OR moot court rather than both would have been enough, and the clinic may not have been necessary). A classmate of mine got into the IRS honors program, but he is a veteran and a minority, and had almost identical stats as myself. And an alumna from my school got into the DOJ honors program (EOIR clerkship, followed by DEA clerkship) and she was top 5 in her class and also had the same stats as me. The top 1/3rd of the class definitely does not apply to lower ranked schools. I'm not sure what the cutoff is, but for my school it's top 10% as the minimum cutoff unless you are a veteran, possibly.

Also, if you truly are interested in ICE OPLA you might want to consider applying for EOIR. That's essentially a clerkship with immigration judges, who you would be litigating before for OPLA.

Anonymous User
Posts: 428174
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Paths to DHS?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:19 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:08 pm
I do know a couple of AUSAs in the city my law school is in and they seem extremely busy, but they also had the time to co-teach a course at my law school, so it can't be so crazy busy that they don't have work-life balance. They both have supervisor roles and are probably GS-15 (with a high locality pay) so they certainly can't be teaching because they need the money. And the attorney-advisors I worked with at DOJ/FAA did often work 50-hour weeks or so but then they got to take off FOREVER for Christmas and summer. So I'm fairly certain it averages out to 40/week in the end, even if you might work overtime for big trials or if you have a large caseload.
Yeah, so “averaging out to 40/wk in the end” isn’t a really useful metric because no one lives an average week. Again, it’s not big law hours (especially not what corporate people are slammed with right now), but that’s very different from a 40/hr week with comp time/leave for anything over.

Teaching a law school class is something some AUSAs like to do, usually for personal satisfaction (although the money never hurts - keep in mind AUSAs aren’t paid on the GS-scale, they’re paid less), but it’s actually somewhat easier for supervisors to schedule this because they don’t have cases and so don’t have case-related deadlines. There are also plenty of big law partners who teach a class on the side, so it’s more about how much control you have over your time than that you have so much of it free.

There’s definitely better work/life balance for government attorneys, and the leave situation is a big thing - the more senior you get, the more leave you accrue each pay period, and in my experience offices are very supportive of leave. So yes, you can take a bunch of time over the holidays (I’m taking off between Christmas Eve and New Year’s), and I know a lot of people with kids who’ll take off spring break and at least a week over the summer for family vacations. But that’s only FOREVER compared to something like biglaw. You also need to make sure that your cases are in a position where you can leave for a week - I’ve had trials scheduled for right after Thanksgiving and right after New Year’s, so there went those holidays.

Again, it’s a pretty good deal overall, I just don’t want anyone to go into it with the wrong impression.

Also, re: grades - the top 1/3 thing is very much a floor for reviewing applications, not sufficient for getting hired. Generally, they’re not going to interview anyone who isn’t considered qualified, but I think the top-1/3 requirement is very much a floor, but not sufficient for most schools, including higher ranked ones. I think most people hired out of even fancier schools have higher class rank than top-1/3. I can’t dispute that if all else is equal, a higher ranked school may well trump a lower-ranked school, of course, but I don’t think there’s some kind of official cutoff (you talk about high-ranked students who didn’t get hired, but do you know a lot of people between top 10-33% who applied and didn’t get interviews? You may, of course, but it’s just not clear to me from your comments).

Clerkship apps are a different kettle of fish, really.

Anonymous User
Posts: 428174
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Paths to DHS?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Nov 05, 2021 8:55 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:19 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:08 pm
I do know a couple of AUSAs in the city my law school is in and they seem extremely busy, but they also had the time to co-teach a course at my law school, so it can't be so crazy busy that they don't have work-life balance. They both have supervisor roles and are probably GS-15 (with a high locality pay) so they certainly can't be teaching because they need the money. And the attorney-advisors I worked with at DOJ/FAA did often work 50-hour weeks or so but then they got to take off FOREVER for Christmas and summer. So I'm fairly certain it averages out to 40/week in the end, even if you might work overtime for big trials or if you have a large caseload.
Yeah, so “averaging out to 40/wk in the end” isn’t a really useful metric because no one lives an average week. Again, it’s not big law hours (especially not what corporate people are slammed with right now), but that’s very different from a 40/hr week with comp time/leave for anything over.

Teaching a law school class is something some AUSAs like to do, usually for personal satisfaction (although the money never hurts - keep in mind AUSAs aren’t paid on the GS-scale, they’re paid less), but it’s actually somewhat easier for supervisors to schedule this because they don’t have cases and so don’t have case-related deadlines. There are also plenty of big law partners who teach a class on the side, so it’s more about how much control you have over your time than that you have so much of it free.

There’s definitely better work/life balance for government attorneys, and the leave situation is a big thing - the more senior you get, the more leave you accrue each pay period, and in my experience offices are very supportive of leave. So yes, you can take a bunch of time over the holidays (I’m taking off between Christmas Eve and New Year’s), and I know a lot of people with kids who’ll take off spring break and at least a week over the summer for family vacations. But that’s only FOREVER compared to something like biglaw. You also need to make sure that your cases are in a position where you can leave for a week - I’ve had trials scheduled for right after Thanksgiving and right after New Year’s, so there went those holidays.

Again, it’s a pretty good deal overall, I just don’t want anyone to go into it with the wrong impression.

Also, re: grades - the top 1/3 thing is very much a floor for reviewing applications, not sufficient for getting hired. Generally, they’re not going to interview anyone who isn’t considered qualified, but I think the top-1/3 requirement is very much a floor, but not sufficient for most schools, including higher ranked ones. I think most people hired out of even fancier schools have higher class rank than top-1/3. I can’t dispute that if all else is equal, a higher ranked school may well trump a lower-ranked school, of course, but I don’t think there’s some kind of official cutoff (you talk about high-ranked students who didn’t get hired, but do you know a lot of people between top 10-33% who applied and didn’t get interviews? You may, of course, but it’s just not clear to me from your comments).

Clerkship apps are a different kettle of fish, really.

Going to preface this by saying that I have not been hired by DHS, just currently in second-round interviews, but I'm at a T40 and do not have a 3.5. My school doesn't rank, but I suspect that I'm at around median - definitely not top 1/3. My interviewers never once asked me about my grades. I think that as long as other parts of your resume and application speak to the position, they won't actually enforce the grades minimum as a cut-off.

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