DOJ Honors Program 2021-2022 Forum

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Anonymous User
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Re: DOJ Honors Program 2021-2022

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:03 pm
Anyone know what the rates for full-time conversion or exit opportunities are like for the two-year clerkships? Particularly with the administrative offices of EOIR (aka not OCIJ/BIA)?
A past applicant here, I don't know about this first hand, but I asked about employment outcomes for people in term positions, and was told that most people in the EOIR term positions (not OCIJ) ended up in permanent positions (whether converted directly or getting another permanent position related to immigration). They suggested that if you do well, they would be happy to keep you. I didn't end up in one of those positions so don't have anything more specific than that, and they were clearly trying to sell me on the position, but it seemed like most people had decent outcomes.

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Re: DOJ Honors Program 2021-2022

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jan 11, 2022 12:01 pm

Same question as above for OCIJ specific. Does anyone know the rates for full-time conversion/exit opportunities for OCIJ law clerks?

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Re: DOJ Honors Program 2021-2022

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jan 11, 2022 12:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 12:01 pm
Same question as above for OCIJ specific. Does anyone know the rates for full-time conversion/exit opportunities for OCIJ law clerks?
Anon above - when I asked about this, I was told that some OCIJ people ended up in other EOIR gigs (I think some
permanent and some a second 2-year honors position), and a lot ended up doing immigration work outside the federal government. (Keep in mind that if you want to actually represent the immigrants, you’re not really going to find a position with the government.) Again, no percentages (I’d be surprised if it’s tracked systematically, though it would be great to know). Overall, it was presented to me as great experience for someone who wanted to be an immigration practitioner, in or outside the government.

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Re: DOJ Honors Program 2021-2022

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jan 11, 2022 12:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 12:21 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 12:01 pm
Same question as above for OCIJ specific. Does anyone know the rates for full-time conversion/exit opportunities for OCIJ law clerks?
Anon above - when I asked about this, I was told that some OCIJ people ended up in other EOIR gigs (I think some
permanent and some a second 2-year honors position), and a lot ended up doing immigration work outside the federal government. (Keep in mind that if you want to actually represent the immigrants, you’re not really going to find a position with the government.) Again, no percentages (I’d be surprised if it’s tracked systematically, though it would be great to know). Overall, it was presented to me as great experience for someone who wanted to be an immigration practitioner, in or outside the government.
Thank you!

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Re: DOJ Honors Program 2021-2022

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Feb 01, 2022 12:11 pm

I know it's still very early, but does anyone know when start dates usually are for the DC components? I'm sure they vary.

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Re: DOJ Honors Program 2021-2022

Post by 774361 » Wed Feb 02, 2022 12:26 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Feb 01, 2022 12:11 pm
I know it's still very early, but does anyone know when start dates usually are for the DC components? I'm sure they vary.
I was told that start dates for my component of Civil Division are in October, but I think you're right, it probably varies a lot...

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Re: DOJ Honors Program 2021-2022

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Feb 02, 2022 3:27 pm

Does anyone know if, at the start of the program or before, we have some sort of conference to meet other DOJ Honors Program people?

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Re: DOJ Honors Program 2021-2022

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Feb 02, 2022 5:37 pm

That wasn’t the case for me, but I can’t say it never happens. IME it’s not something that creates any commonalities outside your actual component, such that there’s any significance to getting together as a group.

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Re: DOJ Honors Program 2021-2022

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Feb 11, 2022 12:06 pm

Does anyone know when we should hear about security clearances or suitability review?

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Re: DOJ Honors Program 2021-2022

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Feb 14, 2022 8:27 pm

What percentage of Hs are Crim/Civil Rights typically looking for from HYS? What about Tenoso?

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Re: DOJ Honors Program 2021-2022

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Feb 14, 2022 8:51 pm

Tenoso is going to be way way more about demonstrated experience in Indian country and/or with Indian law than about grades (based on what I know of previous awardees), ideally also being Native.

Otherwise I’ve never seen grades discussed as percentages of Hs from HYS (I just don’t think that there are enough people hired from any one school to get much data on that kind of thing). Obviously the more the better, but it’s still a kind of holistic process that’s going to take into account all your qualifications.

I found it helpful to google/search LinkedIn for DOJ honors and the component to find any past participants and see their qualifications, too.

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Re: DOJ Honors Program 2021-2022

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Feb 15, 2022 12:39 am

Have significant reservation/indian law experience, but unsure if I want to specialize in that or go into more criminal/civil rights work. Looking on linkedin... fuck we don't have many markers for grades so its really impossible to tell (except by where, if anywhere, they SA'd... which is a meh marker at best)

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Re: DOJ Honors Program 2021-2022

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Feb 15, 2022 8:43 am

I haven’t really looked recently (I went through Honors in a previous year) but the other tell for me was clerkships. I remember all the civil rights people I could find at that point seemed to be SDNY + 2/9/DC circuit people.

But I’m honestly not sure it makes much sense to worry about what grades other people had. I don’t think there’s really accessible data about things like number of Hs (to the extent there is, your school would probably be the best source, so maybe ask them?). There certainly isn’t going to be a threshold above which you’re guaranteed anything, because the process is holistic and number of hires is small, so it’s not like you can hit a certain number and coast. (This is like 0Ls who show up and ask “what LSAT do I need to get into X school;” the only reasonable approach is to aim for the best LSAT you possibly can and then evaluate your options.) And if the ideal number of Hs is higher than what you have, are you just not going to apply?

You’re at one of the top 3 law schools in the country and it sounds like you don’t have straight Ps. Credentials-wise, you’re likely fine; like everyone else, you just have to put together the best pitch for yourself that you can.

(This isn’t meant to be condescending, though I realize it might come across that way; just I think it’s more important to think about your whole candidacy and looking at what others brought to the table in terms of skills and background was more illuminating to me than grades.)

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Re: DOJ Honors Program 2021-2022

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:33 pm

Bump.

Anyone have their start date yet? Haven't heard anything since request for fingerprints/drug test.

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Re: DOJ Honors Program 2021-2022

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Mar 12, 2022 2:44 pm

Haven't even had a request for finger print/drug test yet.

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Re: DOJ Honors Program 2021-2022

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Mar 14, 2022 7:19 pm

I was told I wouldn't get a start date until security clearance was approved. Then I'd get start date and official offer letter.

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Re: DOJ Honors Program 2021-2022

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:50 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Mar 14, 2022 7:19 pm
I was told I wouldn't get a start date until security clearance was approved. Then I'd get start date and official offer letter.
Civil division has had us converse with our branch and select a start date. Security clearance/suitability still pending with some minor issues.

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Re: DOJ Honors Program 2021-2022

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Mar 20, 2022 10:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:25 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Dec 28, 2021 6:52 pm
I am confused about the pay scale for entering HP attorneys.

I began a job in October and was originally told that I would enter as a G-12 owing to my one year of legal employment.

However I now received an email notifying me that I would in fact enter as a G-11 because, with a September 2022 start date, I will not have completed one year of post graduate employment.

Is this really how it works? I miss a full year of employment by literally two weeks. So anyone whose HP start date falls before their previous employment’s state date, even hypothetically by a day, would not receive credit for (nearly) one year of employment?

So many legal jobs start in late September or October. It seems many will be short changed by this policy (15k per year difference). I guess I just can’t believe they would be this strict and exact about what counts as a year.
I know someone who started at OCIJ after a year of experience clerking and they had to essentially haggle back and forth with HR to get their offer amended to reflect the appropriate GS and they did this before accepting the offer. I also know someone in DOL Honors who did not argue after clerking, too, and regretted not fighting for it, because it affects your promotion schedule for the rest of your tenure in government (and he heard others did get it who advocated for themselves).
I was concerned about this, but this language on the website seems to indicate that after you've passed the right amount of time (so I guess an additional month/weeks/days or whatever to get to exactly two years) you would be promoted and not have to wait until 6 months or a year?

Entry-Level Attorneys: Entry-level (Honors Program) attorneys compensated under the GS schedule may be considered for promotion from their current GS level (e.g., GS-11) to the next higher GS level (e.g., GS-12) once they have served the minimum time-in-grade and have passed or been admitted to the bar (any U.S. jurisdiction).

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Re: DOJ Honors Program 2021-2022

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Mar 21, 2022 1:23 am

“May be considered” is very wishy washy language. Sounds to me like it provides the basis for haggling but doesn’t guarantee anything.

(Normally, at least in my corner of DOJ, your annual pay review is in April. If you start on October 1 and your year of legal employment began on October 15, you’d have to wait till April to move up a grade. It’s dumb but it is what it is. Obviously haggling is an option, or you can try to arrange for a start date on or after October 16 instead.)

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Re: DOJ Honors Program 2021-2022

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Mar 23, 2022 8:34 am

Has anyone had their FBI interview? If so, when did you submit EQiP?

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Re: DOJ Honors Program 2021-2022

Post by thestigs » Sat Mar 26, 2022 9:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Mar 21, 2022 1:23 am
“May be considered” is very wishy washy language. Sounds to me like it provides the basis for haggling but doesn’t guarantee anything.

(Normally, at least in my corner of DOJ, your annual pay review is in April. If you start on October 1 and your year of legal employment began on October 15, you’d have to wait till April to move up a grade. It’s dumb but it is what it is. Obviously haggling is an option, or you can try to arrange for a start date on or after October 16 instead.)
So if you take and pass the bar in July and then start in Sept, is April the earliest point that you could be be converted to an Attorney position?

I ask because I’m in a unique situation where I’ve been with government for over a decade and have all of the time-in-grade requirements to come on as a GS-15 attorney; but, because I haven’t passed the bar my offer is for a GS-11 Law Clerk position.

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Re: DOJ Honors Program 2021-2022

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Mar 27, 2022 12:35 pm

thestigs wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2022 9:41 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Mar 21, 2022 1:23 am
“May be considered” is very wishy washy language. Sounds to me like it provides the basis for haggling but doesn’t guarantee anything.

(Normally, at least in my corner of DOJ, your annual pay review is in April. If you start on October 1 and your year of legal employment began on October 15, you’d have to wait till April to move up a grade. It’s dumb but it is what it is. Obviously haggling is an option, or you can try to arrange for a start date on or after October 16 instead.)
So if you take and pass the bar in July and then start in Sept, is April the earliest point that you could be be converted to an Attorney position?

I ask because I’m in a unique situation where I’ve been with government for over a decade and have all of the time-in-grade requirements to come on as a GS-15 attorney; but, because I haven’t passed the bar my offer is for a GS-11 Law Clerk position.
I would discuss this with HR if you haven’t already. I’ve been directly told that time in service before law school does NOT count for GS level bc GS 12 is based on one year of relevant LAW experience so everyone, regardless of service before law school, has to start at GS 11 for the first year.

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Re: DOJ Honors Program 2021-2022

Post by thestigs » Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Mar 27, 2022 12:35 pm
thestigs wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2022 9:41 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Mar 21, 2022 1:23 am
“May be considered” is very wishy washy language. Sounds to me like it provides the basis for haggling but doesn’t guarantee anything.

(Normally, at least in my corner of DOJ, your annual pay review is in April. If you start on October 1 and your year of legal employment began on October 15, you’d have to wait till April to move up a grade. It’s dumb but it is what it is. Obviously haggling is an option, or you can try to arrange for a start date on or after October 16 instead.)
So if you take and pass the bar in July and then start in Sept, is April the earliest point that you could be be converted to an Attorney position?

I ask because I’m in a unique situation where I’ve been with government for over a decade and have all of the time-in-grade requirements to come on as a GS-15 attorney; but, because I haven’t passed the bar my offer is for a GS-11 Law Clerk position.
I would discuss this with HR if you haven’t already. I’ve been directly told that time in service before law school does NOT count for GS level bc GS 12 is based on one year of relevant LAW experience so everyone, regardless of service before law school, has to start at GS 11 for the first year.
Yep, that’s exactly what they told me. Now I’m trying to figure out if I can quickly move back up the GS grades or if I’m stuck waiting 6mo and 12mo between the promotions despite having time-in-grade for GS 15.

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Re: DOJ Honors Program 2021-2022

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:32 pm

thestigs wrote:
Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:20 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Mar 27, 2022 12:35 pm
thestigs wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2022 9:41 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Mar 21, 2022 1:23 am
“May be considered” is very wishy washy language. Sounds to me like it provides the basis for haggling but doesn’t guarantee anything.

(Normally, at least in my corner of DOJ, your annual pay review is in April. If you start on October 1 and your year of legal employment began on October 15, you’d have to wait till April to move up a grade. It’s dumb but it is what it is. Obviously haggling is an option, or you can try to arrange for a start date on or after October 16 instead.)
So if you take and pass the bar in July and then start in Sept, is April the earliest point that you could be be converted to an Attorney position?

I ask because I’m in a unique situation where I’ve been with government for over a decade and have all of the time-in-grade requirements to come on as a GS-15 attorney; but, because I haven’t passed the bar my offer is for a GS-11 Law Clerk position.
I would discuss this with HR if you haven’t already. I’ve been directly told that time in service before law school does NOT count for GS level bc GS 12 is based on one year of relevant LAW experience so everyone, regardless of service before law school, has to start at GS 11 for the first year.
Yep, that’s exactly what they told me. Now I’m trying to figure out if I can quickly move back up the GS grades or if I’m stuck waiting 6mo and 12mo between the promotions despite having time-in-grade for GS 15.
The thing is that you don’t have time-in-grade for GS 15 if the GS 15 is a legal position. Your experience has to be legal experience. It’s great that you have other experience but it’s not relevant for an attorney position.

The April review is when my corner of DOJ reviews pay and promotion stuff. Not sure if every component handles it this way. But if GS 12 requires one year of legal experience, you’re not going to have that the April after you start in September. It sounds like people who start at GS 11 who are just a little removed from one year of experience can get the opportunity to move up sooner, but if you’re talking about starting the fall after graduation that probably doesn’t apply to you.

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Re: DOJ Honors Program 2021-2022

Post by thestigs » Tue Mar 29, 2022 7:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:32 pm
thestigs wrote:
Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:20 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Mar 27, 2022 12:35 pm
thestigs wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2022 9:41 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Mar 21, 2022 1:23 am
“May be considered” is very wishy washy language. Sounds to me like it provides the basis for haggling but doesn’t guarantee anything.

(Normally, at least in my corner of DOJ, your annual pay review is in April. If you start on October 1 and your year of legal employment began on October 15, you’d have to wait till April to move up a grade. It’s dumb but it is what it is. Obviously haggling is an option, or you can try to arrange for a start date on or after October 16 instead.)
So if you take and pass the bar in July and then start in Sept, is April the earliest point that you could be be converted to an Attorney position?

I ask because I’m in a unique situation where I’ve been with government for over a decade and have all of the time-in-grade requirements to come on as a GS-15 attorney; but, because I haven’t passed the bar my offer is for a GS-11 Law Clerk position.
I would discuss this with HR if you haven’t already. I’ve been directly told that time in service before law school does NOT count for GS level bc GS 12 is based on one year of relevant LAW experience so everyone, regardless of service before law school, has to start at GS 11 for the first year.
Yep, that’s exactly what they told me. Now I’m trying to figure out if I can quickly move back up the GS grades or if I’m stuck waiting 6mo and 12mo between the promotions despite having time-in-grade for GS 15.
The thing is that you don’t have time-in-grade for GS 15 if the GS 15 is a legal position. Your experience has to be legal experience. It’s great that you have other experience but it’s not relevant for an attorney position.

The April review is when my corner of DOJ reviews pay and promotion stuff. Not sure if every component handles it this way. But if GS 12 requires one year of legal experience, you’re not going to have that the April after you start in September. It sounds like people who start at GS 11 who are just a little removed from one year of experience can get the opportunity to move up sooner, but if you’re talking about starting the fall after graduation that probably doesn’t apply to you.
Interesting. Thank you. My understanding from my gov't experience (but not at DOJ) is that time-in-grade isn't specific to a position type, it's just "have you been a GS-XX for 52 weeks." Looks like it'll be a long 3.5 years for me.

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