Federal Public Defender Career Path Forum

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Federal Public Defender Career Path

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:41 pm

Wondering if anyone has insight/advice on getting into federal defender offices, particularly those in major markets. Are applicants applying straight out of fed clerkships ever competitive?

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Re: Federal Public Defender Career Path

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:45 pm

My professor, who was a FPD out of a two-year clerkship about 10 years ago told me that you should look out for research and writing positions at FPD offices. That's how a lot of people get their foot in the door and then get promoted to an assistant FPD after a year or two (depending on how long your clerkship was). Also, I know that San Diego and Fort Worth hire law students straight out.

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Re: Federal Public Defender Career Path

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:24 pm

I agree with the above. I've also seen people get hired out of clerkships in southwest border offices. Caveat though is that you need to be fluent in Spanish.

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Re: Federal Public Defender Career Path

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:34 am

I'm an AFPD in a large city. One thing to bear in mind regarding the FPD universe is that each individual office has a lot of autonomy, so it can be somewhat hard to generalize about hiring practices. That said, here's what I've observed.

It's difficult but not impossible to get hired straight out of a clerkship. It helps to be less picky about what market you're looking for, though, if you're less experienced. But once you get your foot in the door as an AFPD, you will have a lot more job opportunities open up in other locations. I've served on a few hiring committees, and the candidates with FPD experience are always very strong because we obviously know that they already know how to do the work, even if it was in a different district.

As another poster mentioned, research and writing attorney positions can be good entry-level opportunities, though a lot of districts are getting rid of those positions and instead just hiring appellate AFPDs. Also, keep an eye for "termed" AFPD positions, which last for a year or two. Depending on the district, these can often turn into permanent positions. (Obviously, if you get hired, do good work, and people like you, the boss will want to keep you around!) And even if they don't, getting your foot in the door in one office will definitely make you a competitive candidate for another FPD office down the line. It also helps to have some public defender experience in law school (as a summer clerk or as an extern during the semester), especially an FPD office. We do tend to care a lot about commitment to indigent defense, so it helps to have something on your resume that demonstrates this commitment.

Demonstrated strong writing skills are also super important. Compared to public defenders in state court, federal public defenders' practice is much more writing intensive, with a much more robust written motions practice. We will definitely read the writing samples of serious candidates very carefully. Clerking is definitely a plus when it comes to writing skills.

If you're coming from a clerkship, one office to check out specifically is the Federal Defenders of San Diego. They're a big office in a border district, and they hire entry-level attorneys straight out of law school (or clerkships) every year. They have a strong reputation as being an excellent office for training new lawyers, and I know a bunch of great criminal defense lawyers who started their careers there.

Finally, don't forget about capital habeas units (CHUs), which exist in some but not all FPD offices. They handle federal habeas petitions for state inmates sentenced to death (along with the occasional defendant sentenced to death in federal court). I'm not a CHU lawyer, but I know of a few colleagues who got hired as an AFPD in a CHU within a year or two of graduating law school. Death penalty work is definitely not for everyone (and can be very emotionally taxing), but they can be good positions for someone coming out of a clerkship, especially if you spent any time working on habeas cases and learned anything about AEDPA.

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Re: Federal Public Defender Career Path

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:56 pm

Thank you so much for your insight - this is very informative. One question regarding CHU positions: do you ever see attorneys transition from the CHU units into trial?

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Re: Federal Public Defender Career Path

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Feb 17, 2021 11:12 pm

Yes, sometimes CHU attorneys do transition to trial or appellate units. I can think of at least two AFPDs that I know personally who have made that transition, one becoming a trial AFPD, and the other becoming an appellate AFPD. (Not all FPD offices have dedicated appellate units, but most of the medium sized to larger ones do.)

If you do apply to a CHU, though, just remember that CHU work is really different from other indigent defense work. You have way fewer cases. They move much more slowly, and you will have the same few clients for many years. A lot of the work is fighting about the nuances of AEDPA. And a lot of the legal claims revolve around trial counsel's ineffectiveness, especially when it came to presenting mitigation evidence at the penalty phase, often involving the client's traumatic upbringing.

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Re: Federal Public Defender Career Path

Post by kugs » Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:16 pm

I would be interested to hear rough salary estimates for AFPDs 2/5/10 or so years out from graduation. I've heard the compensation is commensurate with AUSAs, but is it a direct correspondence (i.e., do they actually consult the AD pay scale)? Does it vary between the FPDs and the FCDOs?

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Re: Federal Public Defender Career Path

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Feb 18, 2021 7:15 pm

Salaries are commensurate with AUSAs, and AFPDs are on the same AD pay scale. Check out https://www.justice.gov/usao/career-cen ... lan-charts to get a sense of the salary bands, but bear in mind that locality pay is added to the base rates.

I believe community defender offices (where you're employed by an independent nonprofit rather than directly by the federal courts) have the same AD pay scale and same pay policies. (I work for a FPD office, so I don't have personal experience with that.) The main difference between an FPD office and CDOs is that the benefits can differ slightly. For example, FPDs can't pay your bar dues, but a CDO can. FPDs get a federal pension and the TSP, which is one of the better benefits. I think CDOs have retirement benefits, but I don't know the details.

As far as salaries, the boss does have some discretion because the AD scale has huge bands and is weirdly complex. Also, locality pay makes a big difference. I work in a large high cost of living city with high locality pay, and AFPDs max out around 10ish years, which is at around $172k. I'm sure it takes longer in rural offices. And my boss is good about paying their employees as much as they can.

I don't really remember what typical salaries are 2 or 5 years out of school, but using the AD midpoint for years of experience (with locality pay added to it) should give a rough estimate. Overall, FPD salaries and benefits are some of the best out there for indigent defense or public interest work. With the exception of a few county PD offices in California, FPDs generally make more than state PDs.

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Re: Federal Public Defender Career Path

Post by polareagle » Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:10 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 7:15 pm
Salaries are commensurate with AUSAs, and AFPDs are on the same AD pay scale. Check out https://www.justice.gov/usao/career-cen ... lan-charts to get a sense of the salary bands, but bear in mind that locality pay is added to the base rates.

I believe community defender offices (where you're employed by an independent nonprofit rather than directly by the federal courts) have the same AD pay scale and same pay policies. (I work for a FPD office, so I don't have personal experience with that.) The main difference between an FPD office and CDOs is that the benefits can differ slightly. For example, FPDs can't pay your bar dues, but a CDO can. FPDs get a federal pension and the TSP, which is one of the better benefits. I think CDOs have retirement benefits, but I don't know the details.

As far as salaries, the boss does have some discretion because the AD scale has huge bands and is weirdly complex. Also, locality pay makes a big difference. I work in a large high cost of living city with high locality pay, and AFPDs max out around 10ish years, which is at around $172k. I'm sure it takes longer in rural offices. And my boss is good about paying their employees as much as they can.

I don't really remember what typical salaries are 2 or 5 years out of school, but using the AD midpoint for years of experience (with locality pay added to it) should give a rough estimate. Overall, FPD salaries and benefits are some of the best out there for indigent defense or public interest work. With the exception of a few county PD offices in California, FPDs generally make more than state PDs.
You work there, so obviously I must be wrong, but I was sure I had heard FPDs were on the JSP (i.e., GS) scale. This page on the judiciary's website indicates that at least some "graded employees" in FPD offices are on JSP. Is that just admin staff?

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Re: Federal Public Defender Career Path

Post by kugs » Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:26 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 7:15 pm
Salaries are commensurate with AUSAs, and AFPDs are on the same AD pay scale. Check out https://www.justice.gov/usao/career-cen ... lan-charts to get a sense of the salary bands, but bear in mind that locality pay is added to the base rates.

I believe community defender offices (where you're employed by an independent nonprofit rather than directly by the federal courts) have the same AD pay scale and same pay policies. (I work for a FPD office, so I don't have personal experience with that.) The main difference between an FPD office and CDOs is that the benefits can differ slightly. For example, FPDs can't pay your bar dues, but a CDO can. FPDs get a federal pension and the TSP, which is one of the better benefits. I think CDOs have retirement benefits, but I don't know the details.

As far as salaries, the boss does have some discretion because the AD scale has huge bands and is weirdly complex. Also, locality pay makes a big difference. I work in a large high cost of living city with high locality pay, and AFPDs max out around 10ish years, which is at around $172k. I'm sure it takes longer in rural offices. And my boss is good about paying their employees as much as they can.

I don't really remember what typical salaries are 2 or 5 years out of school, but using the AD midpoint for years of experience (with locality pay added to it) should give a rough estimate. Overall, FPD salaries and benefits are some of the best out there for indigent defense or public interest work. With the exception of a few county PD offices in California, FPDs generally make more than state PDs.
Thank you, this is excellent information!

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Re: Federal Public Defender Career Path

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:19 pm

AFPDs are on the AD pay scale. All other staff (including Research and Writing Attorneys) are on the JSP pay scale.

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Re: Federal Public Defender Career Path

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:03 am

The New York community defender office was recently hiring an appeals attorney, presumably to replace Eunice Lee. That posting is now gone. Shot in the dark, but any clue whether they have actually hired?

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Re: Federal Public Defender Career Path

Post by HillandHollow » Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:41 pm

I am an AFPD in a CHU in a secondary/tertiary market (think: Houston, Phoenix, San Diego, Philadelphia, etc). Here to second the suggestion that people consider this route, unless you know yourself well and think you simply can't handle the nature of the work. You won't get trial exposure generally, but you'll be a lot more involved in investigation and research, and you will do a lot of substantial writing. You may get opportunities to do depositions and the sort, depending on the make up of your team, and potentially you will also get to argue motions in court, but probably not at first (leave that to the more experienced people, unless it's maybe not a super critical issue). I do not know much about jumping from CHU to trial. Happy to talk specifics over private message, or answer any questions here that I can.

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Re: Federal Public Defender Career Path

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:03 am
The New York community defender office was recently hiring an appeals attorney, presumably to replace Eunice Lee. That posting is now gone. Shot in the dark, but any clue whether they have actually hired?
Bump

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Re: Federal Public Defender Career Path

Post by gf2139 » Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:17 pm

HillandHollow wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:41 pm
I am an AFPD in a CHU in a secondary/tertiary market (think: Houston, Phoenix, San Diego, Philadelphia, etc). Here to second the suggestion that people consider this route, unless you know yourself well and think you simply can't handle the nature of the work. You won't get trial exposure generally, but you'll be a lot more involved in investigation and research, and you will do a lot of substantial writing. You may get opportunities to do depositions and the sort, depending on the make up of your team, and potentially you will also get to argue motions in court, but probably not at first (leave that to the more experienced people, unless it's maybe not a super critical issue). I do not know much about jumping from CHU to trial. Happy to talk specifics over private message, or answer any questions here that I can.
I wondered if you could expand a little more on your own CHU experience? I was a trial PD and then a USDC clerk. Currently have some interviews set up in federal PD offices, one is with the CHU unit. Do you find the work engaging or more tedious? That is my biggest concern I think.

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Re: Federal Public Defender Career Path

Post by isherwood » Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:28 am

For those interested in an FPD work, the FPD system has opened applications for a new diversity fellowship program, which are 12 paid 2-year fellowships in 12 different FPD offices around the country. It's open to 3Ls and recent grads, and a great way to get your foot in the door in the federal system, and to get some excellent training and experience. Details at https://diversityfellowship.fd.org/frontpage

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Re: Federal Public Defender Career Path

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:24 am

I get this is probably an office-by-office thing, but are Fed PD offices split up by units (I.e. violent crime, drug crimes, etc.)? Always been curious how closely they mirror the USAO set up.

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Re: Federal Public Defender Career Path

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:58 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:24 am
I get this is probably an office-by-office thing, but are Fed PD offices split up by units (I.e. violent crime, drug crimes, etc.)? Always been curious how closely they mirror the USAO set up.
In every office I'm familiar with, no. The only distinctions might be capital vs. non-capital, or trial level vs. appellate vs. post-conviction.

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Re: Federal Public Defender Career Path

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:02 pm

This is correct. The vast majority of offices do "vertical representation," which means that the duty attorney on a particular day when a client is first brought into court will represent that client through the end of the case and even on appeal in offices without appellate units. Exceptions are made for new attorneys to make sure they're getting cases appropriate to their experience level, or and for very complex cases, such as a terrorism or death penalty matter, which are directed to the most experienced lawyers in an office. But overall, the ethos of most FPD offices is that a client who comes in on a duty day stays with his or her first lawyer.

Some offices have capital habeas units (and a handful even have dedicated non-capital habeas units), which are quite separate and have a totally different practice from the trial unit. Most medium-sized or large offices have an appellate unit or dedicated appellate attorneys (who themselves will often help with motions work at the trial level). But I've never heard of any FPD office that has specialized trial AFPDs or any specialized trial subunit. Obviously if you develop some particular expertise, you may get brought on to help with those types of matters. But FPD land is nothing like USAOs with specific sections for types of crimes. I actually prefer this because we have a lot of variety of types of cases we're working on, which keeps things more interesting. If I only had to work on fraud cases, for example, I would not like my job nearly as much!

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Re: Federal Public Defender Career Path

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Dec 15, 2021 8:15 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:03 am
The New York community defender office was recently hiring an appeals attorney, presumably to replace Eunice Lee. That posting is now gone. Shot in the dark, but any clue whether they have actually hired?
I have it on very good authority that they hired a supervisor from one of the state appellate defender offices.

There goes that chance for the next decade...

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Re: Federal Public Defender Career Path

Post by HillandHollow » Tue Dec 28, 2021 6:05 pm

gf2139 wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:17 pm

I wondered if you could expand a little more on your own CHU experience? I was a trial PD and then a USDC clerk. Currently have some interviews set up in federal PD offices, one is with the CHU unit. Do you find the work engaging or more tedious? That is my biggest concern I think.
I responded to your PM, but for the sake of anyone else who is curious, I thought I'd respond here, too. CHU work is, in general, much more predictable, day to day. It isn't like in trial when you might need to pop over to the court for a sudden arraignment or to meet a brand client or whatever. Instead, your client is of course already in prison, and you are working on their habeas petition. The CHU knows what cases are coming its way, and you will usually know a new client is coming before they are technically on your docket.

Visiting the client is frustrating here, because our prison is a solid hour and a half drive away, and you can often only get 1 hour visits. So its a big commitment of time for a short period of useful interaction, although most clients I think like having a visit, either way. Once you have more than a few clients on your docket, the visits can be more efficiently utilized by stacking multiple people in a row. We visit our clients two or more times per month, but the visits are split between lawyers and paralegals and investigators (and any combination thereof).

That said, I should mention that in my office, any given client is assigned something like 2-3 lawyers, 2-3 paralegals or assistant paralegals, and investigator and a mitigation specialist for their single case. This high team:client ratio is necessary, as a huge part of the habeas filing will be investigations into previous counsel and missed mitigation facts. Accordingly, our individual caseloads are very small, usually fewer than 4 at any given time, and only senior AFPDs seem to ever have that many.

Habeas is a slow and long process. For most clients, we have something close to (but less than) a year from our appointment to file the petition. But that just really starts the process. For a quick example, I have a client with a petition filing date in early summer 2022. The briefing (meaning responses and replies) on that petition is not going to be completed until well into 2023 according to our scheduling brief.

The work itself CAN be tedious, but I think this is a personality-type question. For myself, I vastly prefer going page by page through a massive record to going to court all the time. CHU work is mostly reading/writing, and thoughtful investigation. For me, that is very engaging, as it utilizes my personal strengths. I am comfortable speaking in Court, and I don't think that I am incompetent in that regard, but I don't really enjoy it the way other people do. I similarly would rather depose someone than have them up on the stand. In CHU work, the oral arguments are limited, and never really off the cuff (you'll moot most every argument beforehand), and are usually going to be handled by more senior AFPDs. Of course the nature of this work is that it often does elevate to circuit and SCOTUS. I think every CHU handles these developments differently, as far as who does the arguments at each stage.

I think that individual office culture is extremely important in CHU work, given how much desk time there is, and how much direct collaboration is involved (you will essentially never draft anything alone).

Anything else I can touch on?

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