AUSA at Major USAO - AMA Forum

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Re: AUSA at Major USAO - AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:09 pm

Thanks for the encouragement! Hoping for a similar outcome.

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Re: AUSA at Major USAO - AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Sun May 16, 2021 8:44 pm

Hi. I'm a current 3rd year associate in BL who is interested in what my chances are in terms of getting an AUSA offer for a major market. Aside from the three years of experience I've had at my firm, I'll be leaving to clerk at a district court at a good district in CA (think CDCA/NDCA), and potentially will have an opportunity to clerk at the 9/2/DC circuit afterwards. Assuming everything falls into place and I end up double-clerking, will I have a decent shot at a major AUSA office?

Oh, and FYI, I worked in general commercial litigation at my BL firm, though I'm not sure to what extent this matters. Thank you.

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Re: AUSA at Major USAO - AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Wed May 19, 2021 12:51 pm

Any AUSAs here that know anything about the Atlanta (N.D. Ga) office? I currently work for the BOP but was a state prosecutor before and want to know what my chances are/how competitive that office is. The posting just closed on Monday.

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Re: AUSA at Major USAO - AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:49 pm

Any thoughts on how soon you can reapply to the same office after getting rejected?

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Re: AUSA at Major USAO - AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Sep 01, 2021 5:34 pm

Not the original OP, but as another AUSA, you can reapply right away. If nothing’s changed about your application since your previous app, you might not fare any better - it may be that they really want to see more experience in X and you won’t get hired till you have that, or you’re just otherwise not competitive and may never get hired. But it’s also possible that their needs have changed or you’ll be up against a different pool and could be more successful. Even if not, no one will hold the second application against you. No one’s going to say “I would have been interested but they applied once already.”

I mean, they may say “I remember this person, I wasn’t interested then and nothing has changed.” But that won’t put you in a worse situation than you would have been if you hadn’t already applied.

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Re: AUSA at Major USAO - AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Sep 01, 2021 9:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 5:34 pm
Not the original OP, but as another AUSA, you can reapply right away. If nothing’s changed about your application since your previous app, you might not fare any better - it may be that they really want to see more experience in X and you won’t get hired till you have that, or you’re just otherwise not competitive and may never get hired. But it’s also possible that their needs have changed or you’ll be up against a different pool and could be more successful. Even if not, no one will hold the second application against you. No one’s going to say “I would have been interested but they applied once already.”

I mean, they may say “I remember this person, I wasn’t interested then and nothing has changed.” But that won’t put you in a worse situation than you would have been if you hadn’t already applied.
Thank you. I really appreciate the advice (especially after having my dreams crushed) and will definitely try to improve my package and reapply.

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Re: AUSA at Major USAO - AMA

Post by andythefir » Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:38 am

On the other hand you could have applied with a strong pool then reapply with a weaker pool, could have a different hiring committee that wants different things, could have had someone with the desired experience go sideways on the office, etc.

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Re: AUSA at Major USAO - AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:02 pm

Big thanks to all the AUSA's on here.

I'm a top student at a low ranked law school. I'm a veteran with national security and law enforcement experience. I have two questions I was hoping someone could help me with.

1) I'm getting substantial interest from litigation components within DOJ. I would love to live in D.C. for a couple years but eventually I will probably want to go home. My home office very rarely hires graduates. If I did DOJ Honors and got a litigation component in DC, does being a trial attorney at Main Justice translate well to being an AUSA?

2) I was a part time law student and I'm within my credit transfer window to Georgetown/GW (Both allow transfers to start in January). Would moving to D.C. and racking up DOJ Internships move the needle for hiring? Would moving from a low ranked law school to Georgetown/GW make a major difference in hiring?

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Re: AUSA at Major USAO - AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:40 pm

Thank you for this post. If you don't mind answering a few more questions:
1. How is the experience working for the appellate division different from trial divisions? Are the hours different? How is the workload?
2. For the uninitiated, what does "OSG" stand for?

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Re: AUSA at Major USAO - AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:54 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:02 pm
1) I'm getting substantial interest from litigation components within DOJ. I would love to live in D.C. for a couple years but eventually I will probably want to go home. My home office very rarely hires graduates. If I did DOJ Honors and got a litigation component in DC, does being a trial attorney at Main Justice translate well to being an AUSA?
Reasonably well. I more often see people go the other way around, because Main Justice pays more and tends to be more specialized, but you will get exposed to federal culture, and, of course, get litigation experience. It may depend a little on what kind of litigation, but yes, it's a decent background.
2) I was a part time law student and I'm within my credit transfer window to Georgetown/GW (Both allow transfers to start in January). Would moving to D.C. and racking up DOJ Internships move the needle for hiring? Would moving from a low ranked law school to Georgetown/GW make a major difference in hiring?
I think getting DOJ internships can be helpful, yes. The more people you know the better, it shows commitment to the cause, and it would probably help you perform better in interviews. I'm not sure that it would be worth transferring if it's going to cost you a lot more - depends a little on where you're at now and how low ranked it actually is. All else equal, yeah, I'd take Georgetown to be able to tick the "school prestige" box (I know it's not HYS, but compared to your current school). I don't know that I'd spend a lot of money for either of them, though, since your background will stand out among a lot of applicants.

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Re: AUSA at Major USAO - AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Oct 26, 2021 5:05 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:40 pm
Thank you for this post. If you don't mind answering a few more questions:
1. How is the experience working for the appellate division different from trial divisions? Are the hours different? How is the workload?
2. For the uninitiated, what does "OSG" stand for?
I'm not in appellate, but my impression is that the hours are somewhat better, because deadlines are pretty clear and you won't have the absolute time suck of trial and trial prep. Appellate people do frequently provide support for trial teams, but their work is a lot more of sitting in an office by themselves reading the record and researching and writing. Trial attorneys are in court much more often and have a lot more interaction with other people.

OSG = Office of the Solicitor General = represents the feds before SCOTUS.

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Re: AUSA at Major USAO - AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:11 pm

For an otherwise ideal biglaw applicant (V10 lit mid-level, prestigious district and appellate clerkships, did well at T14, etc.), how important is specific experience while at biglaw? By luck, all my cases as a mid-level have settled or been dismissed, so I haven't had a chance to take a depo/argue in court/etc. If I want to go to the USAO in the next year or two, do I really need to bust my ass to get experience on my feet?

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Re: AUSA at Major USAO - AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:19 pm

Not the original OP, but a different AUSA: I think this varies a lot, by office and by candidate and the office’s needs. I think getting in-court experience is helpful not just because it gives you skills that offices want to see, but almost more because it helps give you perspective to talk more effectively about the purpose of the job and why you want it. I’ve definitely seen biglaw candidates get interviewed without in-court experience, and some get hired. I’d never tell someone not to apply based on their lack of in-court experience - it’s understood that biglaw people can’t always get that experience, and they can be compelling candidates regardless by showing interest and commitment and potential.

That said, I don’t know why you wouldn’t bust your ass to get that experience in that it will certainly help you be a stronger candidate. I’d definitely suggest candidates get as much experience as they can - again, not in the sense of being able to tick various required boxes, but because it helps you understand more what the job entails and gives you so much more to be able to talk about intelligently in an interview.

If an office wants someone stone-cold criminal trial ready from day 1, they’ll hire a local prosecutor or AUSA from another district. They don’t exclusively do that. Offices know that biglaw people are going to have to learn a lot on the job. But getting the closest experience you can helps you make the best case for why the office should train you.

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Re: AUSA at Major USAO - AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Oct 27, 2021 1:04 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:19 pm
Not the original OP, but a different AUSA: I think this varies a lot, by office and by candidate and the office’s needs. I think getting in-court experience is helpful not just because it gives you skills that offices want to see, but almost more because it helps give you perspective to talk more effectively about the purpose of the job and why you want it. I’ve definitely seen biglaw candidates get interviewed without in-court experience, and some get hired. I’d never tell someone not to apply based on their lack of in-court experience - it’s understood that biglaw people can’t always get that experience, and they can be compelling candidates regardless by showing interest and commitment and potential.

That said, I don’t know why you wouldn’t bust your ass to get that experience in that it will certainly help you be a stronger candidate. I’d definitely suggest candidates get as much experience as they can - again, not in the sense of being able to tick various required boxes, but because it helps you understand more what the job entails and gives you so much more to be able to talk about intelligently in an interview.

If an office wants someone stone-cold criminal trial ready from day 1, they’ll hire a local prosecutor or AUSA from another district. They don’t exclusively do that. Offices know that biglaw people are going to have to learn a lot on the job. But getting the closest experience you can helps you make the best case for why the office should train you.
To what extent does this advice differ if the applicant has no experience in criminal law? Big law civil litigator at a V20 with significant lit experience (including courtroom experience and experience at depos) + clerkships at the district court and appellate level at 'prestigious' courts. I'm trying to understand just how stacked the deck will be against me if I apply for the criminal division.

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Re: AUSA at Major USAO - AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:19 am

Not OP AUSA: Kind of the same answer - criminal experience certainly helps, but it’s not necessarily a dealbreaker for people coming out of biglaw, who are going to have to be trained to be a prosecutor anyway.

The thing is that yes, you could lose out to a similar biglaw candidate who’s done white collar work the whole time, or who did a detail to a local prosecution office, or to a local prosecutor. But I think the evaluation process is fairly holistic, so there are few dealbreakers and a lot depends on how you sell yourself in your materials and an interview. It again depends on who’s running the office at the time/doing the hiring, and the office needs.

So I don't think the deck is stacked entirely against you, but it’s really hard to be more precise than that. Your profile sounds like you would be a strong candidate to interview in my office, but I can’t remotely give you any odds beyond that. You kind of have to start applying and see what happens.

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Re: AUSA at Major USAO - AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:15 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:19 am
Not OP AUSA: Kind of the same answer - criminal experience certainly helps, but it’s not necessarily a dealbreaker for people coming out of biglaw, who are going to have to be trained to be a prosecutor anyway.

The thing is that yes, you could lose out to a similar biglaw candidate who’s done white collar work the whole time, or who did a detail to a local prosecution office, or to a local prosecutor. But I think the evaluation process is fairly holistic, so there are few dealbreakers and a lot depends on how you sell yourself in your materials and an interview. It again depends on who’s running the office at the time/doing the hiring, and the office needs.

So I don't think the deck is stacked entirely against you, but it’s really hard to be more precise than that. Your profile sounds like you would be a strong candidate to interview in my office, but I can’t remotely give you any odds beyond that. You kind of have to start applying and see what happens.
Thank you. That gives me some glimmer of hope that I can still make my dream job work out.

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Re: AUSA at Major USAO - AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:45 pm

Long-shot, but does anyone have any info about the "National Security Division" within the CD Cal USAO? Specifically, is there a realistic chance of joining that team (after doing the mandatory time in general crimes), such that its a reason to target CD Cal over another office? (Or is it just a small team of senior/career AUSAs)

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Re: AUSA at Major USAO - AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:27 pm

For any AUSA on this thread. I have heard, anecdotally, that it is more common for AUSAs to move from a USAO to Main Justice than vice versa. But, for the instances of those that move from Main Justice to a USAO, what are the reasons? Is it commonly when someone is just trying to get back to a specific geographic area or are there certain benefits to being at a USAO versus DOJ Main? I find that move to be interesting since, on balance, the GS pay scale is better and moving to a USAO should come with a pay hit. Unless I am mistaken on that point. Thanks all for a great thread.

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Re: AUSA at Major USAO - AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:27 pm
For any AUSA on this thread. I have heard, anecdotally, that it is more common for AUSAs to move from a USAO to Main Justice than vice versa. But, for the instances of those that move from Main Justice to a USAO, what are the reasons? Is it commonly when someone is just trying to get back to a specific geographic area or are there certain benefits to being at a USAO versus DOJ Main? I find that move to be interesting since, on balance, the GS pay scale is better and moving to a USAO should come with a pay hit. Unless I am mistaken on that point. Thanks all for a great thread.
Not an AUSA, but someone who went from Main Justice to USAO once told me that they had to approximately match his GS salary based on some internal government rule, and said he was accordingly getting paid like 20-30k more than the other baby AUSAs.

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Re: AUSA at Major USAO - AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:23 pm

I don’t know about the GS-AD equivalence from personal experience, but there is definitely wiggle room in the AD-scale that could accommodate something like that.

As for why you’d go from Main Justice to USAO - most cases I’ve seen have been people wanting to move away from DC (usually home, but also somewhere cheaper/easier to raise kids). In terms of work benefits, the only thing I can think would be either a desire to litigate/be in court more - a lot of the Main Justice jobs are more policy-ish - or maybe to litigate without having to travel (because a chunk of Main Justice litigation is in support of USAOs around the country). I think too Main Justice work is often more specialized, which for a lot of people is a plus, but some might prefer more variety. And I think USAOs are going to be less political than MJ, though I can’t comment on that from experience either.

But the latter are slightly speculative - mostly I think it’s people who want to leave DC.

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Re: AUSA at Major USAO - AMA

Post by HowAppealing » Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:44 am

On the salary issue, pretty much everything is at the discretion of the USAO. The USAO can decide to match the previous salary, could just take it into account, or ignore it entirely. The AD-Scale provides a lot of flexibility.

On the back and forth between the USAO and Main Justice, I've definitely seen people go to USAOs from Main Justice. There is some flexibility in salary in the AD-scale and also people have other reasons for wanting to go to specific USAOs. And even taking into account locality pay and the different salary scale, an AUSA salary in some locality's may get you further than a Main Justice salary in D.C.

I doubt that the Main Justice folks that want to join a USAO are sending applications to every possible USAO, but they've developed some prosecutorial experience and its certainly not irrational to want to move back home/to another interesting place/not work in D.C. forever.

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Re: AUSA at Major USAO - AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Oct 31, 2021 12:09 pm

Main Justice attorney here (from a litigating component, not a support):

Most of our hires are from USAO, other Main Justice (“MJ”) components, large law firms, and state prosecutors’ offices. You are correct in that AUSAs come to MJ for a pay bump, as we are often paid 30-40k more, comparatively. Most MJ attorneys that have received stellar performance reviews after 5-6 years are usually at the cap due to QSIs. The other poster is correct is that it is very niche, but the trade off is that MJ handles the largest, newsworthy and most complex litigation in the country within that specialized field.

As to MJ attorneys going to USAOS, it is somewhat common from MJ, however not all USAOS have to match salary. In fact, most of my former colleagues who left ended up taking pay cuts because the USAOS they went to are large, prestigious offices that do not have to fight for talent, so they can lowball anyone (include big law attorneys) with a 30-40k pay cut. It all depends on the office, years of experience, and whether you get hired as an AUSA or SLC or Supervisory AUSA at those offices. In the prestigious offices expect to get paid on the low end of the AD scale based on years of experience (SDNY, EDNY, EDVA, SDFL, NDIL, CDCA, SDCA, DDC)

Lastly as to why: mostly it is due to pace and variety of work (as another poster mentioned). AUSAs see more court time than MJ attorneys in a litigating section, however the cases are smaller in stature. They also have an easier time moving to different sections within their office than it is to move within MJ. Lastly, there is less travel, as all their cases stem from their district in some fashion.

TBH: AUSAs do a lot more work and (hours) on smaller cases than MJ attorneys for 30-40k less. However, AUSAs get to do more trials and travel less than MJ attorneys.

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Re: AUSA at Major USAO - AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Oct 31, 2021 2:39 pm

Oh yeah, poster from above, and I should have said that more specialized at MJ = bigger and more complex.

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