Attorney Advisor (Trademark Examining Attorney) for USPTO Forum

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Re: Attorney Advisor (Trademark Examining Attorney) for USPTO

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:34 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 26, 2022 11:57 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:41 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:59 pm
Is anyone else under the impression that the hiring managers can barely be bothered with the motions of the interview, don't seem to like working at the USPTO all that much, and don't even like trademarks at all? I bet if an interviewee asked each of them to say what they liked best about working at the USPTO, they would be taken aback by the question and struggle to come up with an answer.

See also: "Management - from immediate to almost the very top - is horrid. Training is inconsistent. Everyone seems unhappy or resigned to the work they have to do because everyone needs a job, the pay is eventually ok, and there is some job security. The work is mundane and not attorney level work at all, and pro se applicants are at a disadvantage. The new workload is almost unattainable without cutting corners, which weakens the validity of registrations." https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/US-Pa ... =PART_TIME
Anecdotally, my experience with the hiring managers was pleasant and the people I've met from the USPTO like their jobs (trademark examiners, foreign attache agents, managers, etc.). However, I also don't doubt that some people are burnt out or disillusioned or otherwise don't like the work, and I've definitely see many people voicing concern about the increased work and diminishing morale. The USPTO does appear to be addressing issues, namely, the new training and on-boarding protocol for TM examiners. Also, the pandemic has forced the trademark side to match the WFH standards the patent examiners have enjoyed for many years, which makes the position much more appealing for those not wanting to move to Alexandria. Lastly, I'll note that my current position as a private practice associate can also be called "mundane and not attorney level work at all" with inconsistent training, unattainable billable hours, and demoralizing. So at a certain point, criticism of the trademark examiner position (mostly a starter job) is consistent with most other entry level attorney positions.
The difference is that this aspect of the USPTO job "The work is mundane and not attorney level work at all" does not change when moving up in the GS grades. It's not an entry-level issue; it's a USPTO TM examiner career issue.
That's true if the examiner isn't seeking (or can't progress) beyond examiner responsibilities. There's basically two career moves to escape just being a examination manager: (1) put your head down, do the examiner work for 2 or 3 years, then transition back to private practice with an IP firm that will give you plenty of prosecution and TTAB work because of your experience from the inside; (2) take on additional responsibilities within the USPTO, such as with the TTAB or OPIA. I've met attorneys in both divisions that started as examiners. I don't see the mundane job description as a negative, in the sense that it's may be a boring dead-end job. I do concur that as a career position the TM examiner job's GS pay progression is a bait and switch, where hardly anyone hits a decent salary before leaving. I'm merely pointing out that (for better or worse) the job is just a means to an end. Considering the difficulty of landing a good soft-IP job out of law school, TM examination is a pretty good option, but you have to keep your feet moving.

If you're an examiner, I'd love more elaboration and insight on your thoughts of the TM examiner career track.

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Re: Attorney Advisor (Trademark Examining Attorney) for USPTO

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Feb 02, 2022 2:41 pm

@Current examiners lurking on this thread--can anyone speak to the customer service aspect of this job? The hiring managers never discuss this, but it seems like a glaring omission because many people (especially the youngest, which the USPTO strongly prefers) applying to this job have no experience with making and taking business phone calls, are phone averse, etc. At the opposite end of the spectrum, whether someone whose interview demeanor seems good for patiently answering simple questions by phone has no correlation whatsoever to their ability to understand and apply trademark law, produce polished work product on short deadlines, etc.

How many phone calls do you receive on average per day/how many voicemails do you come back to each morning, and how does that cut into production? How many calls with pro se clients amount to walking your grandparents through using technology? How often are you yelled at/condescended to by applicants' attorneys? I think I read somewhere that a certain number of responses need to be done by phone vs. email. Does this customer service aspect play a part in the outstanding vs. successfully competent rating?

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Re: Attorney Advisor (Trademark Examining Attorney) for USPTO

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Feb 04, 2022 9:53 am

I received a soft offer on Wednesday afternoon from the managing attorney. The position is to begin on March 14th. The next step is reference/background check and then a call from HR with the formal offer. I have no idea when to expect the formal offer.

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Re: Attorney Advisor (Trademark Examining Attorney) for USPTO

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Feb 08, 2022 4:19 pm

Has anyone heard anything?

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Re: Attorney Advisor (Trademark Examining Attorney) for USPTO

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Feb 08, 2022 7:58 pm

I received a call for references last Wednesday, February 2nd from a managing attorney and one of my references confirmed they were called the next day. I received a call from HR this evening right before 5pm with the official verbal offer. I was told there were over 500 people who had applied that they had to process and that things had been slow on their end as of late, so if you haven’t heard anything I wouldn’t worry just yet!

Good luck everyone!!

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Re: Attorney Advisor (Trademark Examining Attorney) for USPTO

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Feb 09, 2022 2:03 pm

Congrats on the offer! Out of curiosity, when did you interview? I interviewed the last week of January and haven't heard anything yet =/

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Re: Attorney Advisor (Trademark Examining Attorney) for USPTO

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 2:03 pm
Congrats on the offer! Out of curiosity, when did you interview? I interviewed the last week of January and haven't heard anything yet =/
Thanks so much! I interviewed towards the end of January but I believe interview slots are pretty random as I interviewed last cycle early on but didn’t make it past that.

Looking into this thread, it seems that references are either called whenever the specific managing attorney gets around to it or in order of preference and people get called in waves at first and then sporadically closer to the start date as people pull out or references/ background checks fall through. Basically, it seems that USPTO hiring is a lawless place, so be on the look out for that 571 number at any time.

Rooting for everyone!!

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Re: Attorney Advisor (Trademark Examining Attorney) for USPTO

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Feb 09, 2022 6:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:24 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 2:03 pm
Congrats on the offer! Out of curiosity, when did you interview? I interviewed the last week of January and haven't heard anything yet =/
Thanks so much! I interviewed towards the end of January but I believe interview slots are pretty random as I interviewed last cycle early on but didn’t make it past that.

Looking into this thread, it seems that references are either called whenever the specific managing attorney gets around to it or in order of preference and people get called in waves at first and then sporadically closer to the start date as people pull out or references/ background checks fall through. Basically, it seems that USPTO hiring is a lawless place, so be on the look out for that 571 number at any time.

Rooting for everyone!!
"t seems that USPTO hiring is a lawless place"

Is it ever--and literally too! https://federalnewsnetwork.com/manageme ... in-hiring/

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Re: Attorney Advisor (Trademark Examining Attorney) for USPTO

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Feb 09, 2022 8:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:24 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 2:03 pm
Congrats on the offer! Out of curiosity, when did you interview? I interviewed the last week of January and haven't heard anything yet =/
Thanks so much! I interviewed towards the end of January but I believe interview slots are pretty random as I interviewed last cycle early on but didn’t make it past that.

Looking into this thread, it seems that references are either called whenever the specific managing attorney gets around to it or in order of preference and people get called in waves at first and then sporadically closer to the start date as people pull out or references/ background checks fall through. Basically, it seems that USPTO hiring is a lawless place, so be on the look out for that 571 number at any time.

Rooting for everyone!!
Any idea what (if anything) you did differently the second time to get over the finish line? Or did it seem like you had the same resume/experience, same presentation, etc. but got lucky with a different group of managers?

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Re: Attorney Advisor (Trademark Examining Attorney) for USPTO

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Feb 10, 2022 10:31 am

For those who interviewed this round and didn't get an offer, has anyone received a rejection notice? I interviewed but haven't heard anything yet. It seems rude for the USPTO to leave candidates hanging like this.

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Re: Attorney Advisor (Trademark Examining Attorney) for USPTO

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Feb 11, 2022 11:55 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Feb 10, 2022 10:31 am
For those who interviewed this round and didn't get an offer, has anyone received a rejection notice? I interviewed but haven't heard anything yet. It seems rude for the USPTO to leave candidates hanging like this.
They aren't going to send out the generic "referred not selected" emails (even to those who interviewed who were in fact selected by the Selecting Official, just not hired) until very close to the start date, often on the same date the job is posted for the next cycle. They do this every time. Sometimes, someone will get an offer very late in the process if a first-choice backed out or failed the background check. If you read all the way back in this forum, you can see at least one time that happened.

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Re: Attorney Advisor (Trademark Examining Attorney) for USPTO

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Feb 14, 2022 10:18 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 11, 2022 11:55 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Feb 10, 2022 10:31 am
For those who interviewed this round and didn't get an offer, has anyone received a rejection notice? I interviewed but haven't heard anything yet. It seems rude for the USPTO to leave candidates hanging like this.
They aren't going to send out the generic "referred not selected" emails (even to those who interviewed who were in fact selected by the Selecting Official, just not hired) until very close to the start date, often on the same date the job is posted for the next cycle. They do this every time. Sometimes, someone will get an offer very late in the process if a first-choice backed out or failed the background check. If you read all the way back in this forum, you can see at least one time that happened.
This is the part of the process that has upset me the most. From the time the job is posted to the time the rejections messages goes out, 6 months has passed. You have to tie up half a year on this application. They should at least send rejection letters to the bottom of the class so people who are not backup candidates can move on with their lives.

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Re: Attorney Advisor (Trademark Examining Attorney) for USPTO

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Feb 18, 2022 10:51 am

I emailed the HR person listed on the announcement about three weeks before the October 2021 start date and she wrote me back (almost immediately) that I was not selected for the position. You could try emailing HR.

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Re: Attorney Advisor (Trademark Examining Attorney) for USPTO

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Feb 23, 2022 4:20 pm

HR can tell you the status of your application, if they have time to respond. I was told that no one else is allowed to comment except to say the selection process is still underway.

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Re: Attorney Advisor (Trademark Examining Attorney) for USPTO

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Feb 24, 2022 3:05 pm

Got my third rejection today. I have no idea what they are looking for in an attorney. I even spent the time and money to get career coaching and resume editing. It's especially frustrating because I submitted several trademark applications over 7 months ago and have yet to have an examiner assigned to any of them. Are they not even trying to correct the backlog at this point? I have a few years of experience as a trademark attorney. I'm young enough that I'm going to adopt any proprietary examining protocol without hesitation or question. I am even well adjusted for remote learning and work. So disheartening. 6 months wasted...again. The schadenfreude silver lining is that I've heard trademark examiners are becoming less desirable in the law firm market, so escape from the USPTO is becoming more difficult. Perhaps I'm better off not transition to government work. Congratulations to the couple dozen new examiners. Cheers to the hundreds of qualified attorneys who were yet again rejected.

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Re: Attorney Advisor (Trademark Examining Attorney) for USPTO

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Feb 24, 2022 6:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Feb 24, 2022 3:05 pm
Got my third rejection today. I have no idea what they are looking for in an attorney. I even spent the time and money to get career coaching and resume editing. It's especially frustrating because I submitted several trademark applications over 7 months ago and have yet to have an examiner assigned to any of them. Are they not even trying to correct the backlog at this point? I have a few years of experience as a trademark attorney. I'm young enough that I'm going to adopt any proprietary examining protocol without hesitation or question. I am even well adjusted for remote learning and work. So disheartening. 6 months wasted...again. The schadenfreude silver lining is that I've heard trademark examiners are becoming less desirable in the law firm market, so escape from the USPTO is becoming more difficult. Perhaps I'm better off not transition to government work. Congratulations to the couple dozen new examiners. Cheers to the hundreds of qualified attorneys who were yet again rejected.
I received a "not you" email today as well. This was my first go around, so I may try again. It will be interesting to see how the USPTO "reopens" to in person work and handles the people who want to be remote and what that may mean for future classes and examiners. It may be better to be observing it from the outside for now. I'm glad to stop wondering though, that was taking up too much of my energy.

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Re: Attorney Advisor (Trademark Examining Attorney) for USPTO

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Feb 25, 2022 12:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Feb 24, 2022 3:05 pm
Congratulations to the couple dozen new examiners. Cheers to the hundreds of qualified attorneys who were yet again rejected.
"The funny thing about [job interviews] however, is that they take up time and resources without actually helping to select the best people to hire...They are in no way the most effective means of deciding who to hire because they maximize the role of bias and minimize the role of evaluating competency...While questions may ostensibly be about predicting job performance, they tend to better select for traits like charisma rather than actual competence...
"In 1979, the University of Texas Medical School at Houston suddenly had to increase its incoming class size by 50 students due to a legal change requiring larger classes. Without time to interview again, they selected from the pool of candidates the school chose to interview, then rejected as unsuitable for admission. Seeing as they got through to the interview stage, they had to be among the best candidates. They just weren’t previously considered good enough to admit. When researchers later studied the result of this unusual situation, they found that the students whom the school first rejected performed no better or worse academically than the ones they first accepted. In short, interviewing students did nothing to help select for the highest performers...
What’s the best way to test if someone can do a particular job well? Get them to carry out tasks that are part of the job. See if they can do what they say they can do. It’s much harder for someone to lie and mislead an interviewer during actual work than during an interview...'Extraneous data such as a candidate’s appearance or charisma lose their influence when you can see the way an applicant actually performs. It’s also a better predictor of their future contributions because unlike traditional in-person interviews, it evaluates job-relevant criteria.'" https://fs.blog/job-interviews/
http://houdekpetr.cz/%21data/papers/DeV ... 201987.pdf
^This is so relevant to the USPTO's ineffective hiring process, which yields people who have to be let go during the probation period for inability to apply trademark law, too many errors, and inability to keep up with production...and people who intend to bounce the second the agency's big investment of training is over.

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Re: Attorney Advisor (Trademark Examining Attorney) for USPTO

Post by Jack2010 » Mon Apr 25, 2022 6:01 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:34 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 26, 2022 11:57 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:41 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:59 pm
Is anyone else under the impression that the hiring managers can barely be bothered with the motions of the interview, don't seem to like working at the USPTO all that much, and don't even like trademarks at all? I bet if an interviewee asked each of them to say what they liked best about working at the USPTO, they would be taken aback by the question and struggle to come up with an answer.

See also: "Management - from immediate to almost the very top - is horrid. Training is inconsistent. Everyone seems unhappy or resigned to the work they have to do because everyone needs a job, the pay is eventually ok, and there is some job security. The work is mundane and not attorney level work at all, and pro se applicants are at a disadvantage. The new workload is almost unattainable without cutting corners, which weakens the validity of registrations." https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/US-Pa ... =PART_TIME
Anecdotally, my experience with the hiring managers was pleasant and the people I've met from the USPTO like their jobs (trademark examiners, foreign attache agents, managers, etc.). However, I also don't doubt that some people are burnt out or disillusioned or otherwise don't like the work, and I've definitely see many people voicing concern about the increased work and diminishing morale. The USPTO does appear to be addressing issues, namely, the new training and on-boarding protocol for TM examiners. Also, the pandemic has forced the trademark side to match the WFH standards the patent examiners have enjoyed for many years, which makes the position much more appealing for those not wanting to move to Alexandria. Lastly, I'll note that my current position as a private practice associate can also be called "mundane and not attorney level work at all" with inconsistent training, unattainable billable hours, and demoralizing. So at a certain point, criticism of the trademark examiner position (mostly a starter job) is consistent with most other entry level attorney positions.
The difference is that this aspect of the USPTO job "The work is mundane and not attorney level work at all" does not change when moving up in the GS grades. It's not an entry-level issue; it's a USPTO TM examiner career issue.
That's true if the examiner isn't seeking (or can't progress) beyond examiner responsibilities. There's basically two career moves to escape just being a examination manager: (1) put your head down, do the examiner work for 2 or 3 years, then transition back to private practice with an IP firm that will give you plenty of prosecution and TTAB work because of your experience from the inside; (2) take on additional responsibilities within the USPTO, such as with the TTAB or OPIA. I've met attorneys in both divisions that started as examiners. I don't see the mundane job description as a negative, in the sense that it's may be a boring dead-end job. I do concur that as a career position the TM examiner job's GS pay progression is a bait and switch, where hardly anyone hits a decent salary before leaving. I'm merely pointing out that (for better or worse) the job is just a means to an end. Considering the difficulty of landing a good soft-IP job out of law school, TM examination is a pretty good option, but you have to keep your feet moving.

If you're an examiner, I'd love more elaboration and insight on your thoughts of the TM examiner career track.
What do you mean by “ I do concur that as a career position the TM examiner job's GS pay progression is a bait and switch, where hardly anyone hits a decent salary before leaving”. What is a decent salary? Within 3 years, they are GS-14s. Is that considered not a decent salary? I’m curious at to what the standard is.

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Re: Attorney Advisor (Trademark Examining Attorney) for USPTO

Post by nj4096 » Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:58 am

I worked for uspto many years (decades) on patent side but in similar production oriented attorney position.

Pros: 100% remote work before it was cool.
Very flexible work schedule- able to arrange my schedule Monday thru Saturday.
Perfect for having a family, and/or traveling regularly
Production plus and con. Very clear what is expected of you.
Within a few years you are making 6 figures while still having that work/life balance
You can live anywhere in the US
Other agencies such as SSA impose production demands but you can never get past grade 13
Bonuses at Christmas very nice. Trademark under old system had more than patents
Production is biggest grind.
And work can be mundane. But there are detail etc opportunities.
You can make a great life!

Reality check.
This is one of the better jobs out there. Unless work is your life.
You won’t find meaning in this job.
I ultimately left for more. Still looking.

Don’t regret my time at uspto!

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Re: Attorney Advisor (Trademark Examining Attorney) for USPTO

Post by nj4096 » Tue Apr 26, 2022 12:00 pm

I worked for uspto many years (decades) on patent side but in similar production oriented attorney position.

Pros: 100% remote work before it was cool.
Very flexible work schedule- able to arrange my schedule Monday thru Saturday.
Perfect for having a family, and/or traveling regularly
Production plus and con. Very clear what is expected of you.
Within a few years you are making 6 figures while still having that work/life balance
You can live anywhere in the US
Other agencies such as SSA impose production demands but you can never get to grade 13
Bonuses at Christmas very nice. Trademark under old system had more than patents
Production is biggest grind.
And work can be mundane. But there are detail etc opportunities.
You can make a great life!

Reality check.
This is one of the better jobs out there. Unless work is your life.
You won’t find meaning in this job.
I ultimately left for more. Still looking.

Don’t regret my time at uspto!

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Re: Attorney Advisor (Trademark Examining Attorney) for USPTO

Post by Anonymous User » Wed May 04, 2022 1:49 pm

"[The new USPTO Director] revealed that the Office has hired 32 additional examiners and is deploying new technologies to help." > can anyone confirm whether 32 was the number hired from the most recent (March) class? I thought it was supposed to be 40 (per current examiner's comment earlier in this thread). The budget for next year estimates that 104 examining attorneys will be hired next year and ~100 annually for FYs 2023-2027. I thought they already hired around 100 per year (60 in October, 40 in March), but the report makes it seem like it's an increase.

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Re: Attorney Advisor (Trademark Examining Attorney) for USPTO

Post by Anonymous User » Mon May 09, 2022 4:58 pm

The following vacancies have posted to USAjobs. The attorney advisor positions are for new GS-11 examining attorneys, as well as for former examining attorneys at the GS-12/13/14 levels. For those interested in the examiner position who have graduated from law school but have not yet been admitted to the bar, there is also an announcement for GS-9 law clerk.

Law Clerk, GS-0904-09
Vacancy# TMCO-COMM-22-11470511-EX
Open: 05/09/2022
Close: 05/30/2022
USAJOBS URL: https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/652992400

Attorney Advisor (Trademark), GS-0905-11
Vacancy# TMCO-COMM-22-11470824-EX
Open: 05/09/2022
Close: 05/30/2022
USAJOBS URL: https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/652998200

Attorney Advisor (Trademark), GS-0905-12/13/14
Vacancy# TMCO-COMM-22-11471588-EX
Open: 05/09/2022
Close: 05/30/2022
USAJOBS URL: https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/653001900

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Re: Attorney Advisor (Trademark Examining Attorney) for USPTO

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Jun 05, 2022 8:43 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 4:58 pm
The following vacancies have posted to USAjobs. The attorney advisor positions are for new GS-11 examining attorneys, as well as for former examining attorneys at the GS-12/13/14 levels. For those interested in the examiner position who have graduated from law school but have not yet been admitted to the bar, there is also an announcement for GS-9 law clerk.

Law Clerk, GS-0904-09
Vacancy# TMCO-COMM-22-11470511-EX
Open: 05/09/2022
Close: 05/30/2022
USAJOBS URL: https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/652992400

Attorney Advisor (Trademark), GS-0905-11
Vacancy# TMCO-COMM-22-11470824-EX
Open: 05/09/2022
Close: 05/30/2022
USAJOBS URL: https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/652998200

Attorney Advisor (Trademark), GS-0905-12/13/14
Vacancy# TMCO-COMM-22-11471588-EX
Open: 05/09/2022
Close: 05/30/2022
USAJOBS URL: https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/653001900
Those who've applied-- any response back yet? I applied the last day before close.

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Re: Attorney Advisor (Trademark Examining Attorney) for USPTO

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jun 10, 2022 2:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Jun 05, 2022 8:43 am
Those who've applied-- any response back yet? I applied the last day before close.
Just got an email telling me I was referred, followed shortly thereafter with an email asking me to submit the written statement. I applied on the 28th.

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Re: Attorney Advisor (Trademark Examining Attorney) for USPTO

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jun 11, 2022 10:23 am

Same email(s) received yesterday. I don't recall my application date, but it was at the beginning of the open period.

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

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