Is Kirkland pushing back incoming associate start dates? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Anon for obvious reasons. The information website for incoming associates used to have a September date listed for our start date.

Now the website says the following:

Start Information
We can't wait to welcome you to the Firm this fall. The next Kirkland communication in April will include more onboarding tasks and details regarding your official start date.

[Anonymous User]

Anon for obvious reasons. The information website for incoming associates used to have a September date listed for our start date.

Now the website says the following:

Start Information
We can't wait to welcome you to the Firm this fall. The next Kirkland communication in April will include more onboarding tasks and details regarding your official start date.

Given what's going on, it would be surprising if they didn't. I would expect a push to January, although that language suggests the latest push would be to November (fall). Hiring 500 summers was not a smart move.

[Anonymous User]

Hoooooly shit

[Anonymous User]

Anon for obvious reasons. The information website for incoming associates used to have a September date listed for our start date.

Now the website says the following:

Start Information
We can't wait to welcome you to the Firm this fall. The next Kirkland communication in April will include more onboarding tasks and details regarding your official start date.

Given what's going on, it would be surprising if they didn't. I would expect a push to January, although that language suggests the latest push would be to November (fall). Hiring 500 summers was not a smart move.

How likely is it that start dates vary based on practice group? i.e., corporate starting later than lit or restructuring

[Sackboy]

Why do people keep saying 500? Last article I read said 425.

[Anonymous User]

This could also be nothing—one of the start dates in 2021 was pushed back a week for scheduling/no reason at all, and there was no cause for concern.

[GavinMcG]

Why do people keep saying 500? Last article I read said 425.

Vault says 526 total (469 2Ls; 57 1Ls). The firm also said 469 in onboarding materials.

[Anonymous User]

If this happens, what do people usually do between taking the bar and January? Get a part time job? Live with parents? Do firms give stipends to pay rent?

[Anonymous User]

what "information website"? I'm an incoming and I don't know what you're talking about.

[Anonymous User]

If this happens, what do people usually do between taking the bar and January? Get a part time job? Live with parents? Do firms give stipends to pay rent?

Live with parents, take out credit card debt etc. Some firms in 2020 (when deferral of associate start dates was common due to bar exam delays and economic uncertainty) gave associates a like 10k stipend. Others gave nothing, sucked for people who had already locked in expensive apartment leases.

[Anonymous User]

Why do people keep saying 500? Last article I read said 425.

Vault says 526 total (469 2Ls; 57 1Ls). The firm also said 469 in onboarding materials.

Lol regardless of whether it's closer to 400 or 500, it's way too much.

[Anonymous User]

If this happens, what do people usually do between taking the bar and January? Get a part time job? Live with parents? Do firms give stipends to pay rent?

Live with parents, take out credit card debt etc. Some firms in 2020 (when deferral of associate start dates was common due to bar exam delays and economic uncertainty) gave associates a like 10k stipend. Others gave nothing, sucked for people who had already locked in expensive apartment leases.

Damn. I thought the stipend would be higher or that you’d get paid semi monthly still. Stretching $10k out for three months rather than making over $10k a month post taxes. Yikes.

Hopefully they'll announce the start date soon and it will still be in September.

[Anonymous User]

Anon for obvious reasons. The information website for incoming associates used to have a September date listed for our start date.

Now the website says the following:

Start Information
We can't wait to welcome you to the Firm this fall. The next Kirkland communication in April will include more onboarding tasks and details regarding your official start date.

Pretty sure the onboarding website said this at least a few weeks ago when I checked

[Anonymous User]

Anon for obvious reasons. The information website for incoming associates used to have a September date listed for our start date.

Now the website says the following:

Start Information
We can't wait to welcome you to the Firm this fall. The next Kirkland communication in April will include more onboarding tasks and details regarding your official start date.

Pretty sure the onboarding website said this at least a few weeks ago when I checked

It had a September date posted for quite some time after information for bar related reimbursements was shared. I'll be an incoming summer this fall (can confirm with mods if needed). I've no reason to lie or start drama.

With that said, I don't know the last time the website still listed a date. You might be correct, in which case they removed the date prior to the layoffs. Or as someone else suggested, maybe it's entirely unrelated and they're pushing the date by a week for admin reasons.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Why do people keep saying 500? Last article I read said 425.

Vault says 526 total (469 2Ls; 57 1Ls). The firm also said 469 in onboarding materials.

526 (according to Vault) or 545 (according to K&E's LinkedIn from May) was their 2022 summer class.

425 is the number starting as first years in the fall.

[charles117]

what on earth is anyone going to do with 500+ first years?...

[Sackboy]

Why do people keep saying 500? Last article I read said 425.

Vault says 526 total (469 2Ls; 57 1Ls). The firm also said 469 in onboarding materials.

Lol regardless of whether it's closer to 400 or 500, it's way too much.

As Mono pointed out, 425 is the number of starting first years. The difference between 500+ and 425 here is 75+, which is a $20-30 million compensation expense when you include salary, healthcare, fringe benefits, office space, etc., which is king of... significant.

Firms need first years. KE is like 3,500 attorneys and grew its revenue $500 million in a down year. I'll leave it to them to decide what "too much" is but thanks for your thought provoking gut reaction.

[Anonymous User]

Why do people keep saying 500? Last article I read said 425.

Vault says 526 total (469 2Ls; 57 1Ls). The firm also said 469 in onboarding materials.

Lol regardless of whether it's closer to 400 or 500, it's way too much.

As Mono pointed out, 425 is the number of starting first years. The difference between 500+ and 425 here is 75+, which is a $20-30 million compensation expense when you include salary, healthcare, fringe benefits, office space, etc., which is king of... significant.

Firms need first years. KE is like 3,500 attorneys and grew its revenue $500 million in a down year. I'll leave it to them to decide what "too much" is but thanks for your thought provoking gut reaction.

Lol we're allowed to question the decisions of law firms. They're not gods.

[Anonymous User]

Why do people keep saying 500? Last article I read said 425.

Vault says 526 total (469 2Ls; 57 1Ls). The firm also said 469 in onboarding materials.

Lol regardless of whether it's closer to 400 or 500, it's way too much.

As Mono pointed out, 425 is the number of starting first years. The difference between 500+ and 425 here is 75+, which is a $20-30 million compensation expense when you include salary, healthcare, fringe benefits, office space, etc., which is king of... significant.

Firms need first years. KE is like 3,500 attorneys and grew its revenue $500 million in a down year. I'll leave it to them to decide what "too much" is but thanks for your thought provoking gut reaction.

K&E knows how to run a big law firm. But like any big law firm, they make recruiting decisions months or years in advance, using imperfect information. K&E themselves would take a smaller class if they had the benefit of hindsight. Nobody predicting a historic banking crisis and massive dealmaking slowdown when these kids were being hired.

[Anonymous User]

Why do people keep saying 500? Last article I read said 425.

Vault says 526 total (469 2Ls; 57 1Ls). The firm also said 469 in onboarding materials.

Lol regardless of whether it's closer to 400 or 500, it's way too much.

As Mono pointed out, 425 is the number of starting first years. The difference between 500+ and 425 here is 75+, which is a $20-30 million compensation expense when you include salary, healthcare, fringe benefits, office space, etc., which is king of... significant.

Firms need first years. KE is like 3,500 attorneys and grew its revenue $500 million in a down year. I'll leave it to them to decide what "too much" is but thanks for your thought provoking gut reaction.

K&E knows how to run a big law firm. But like any big law firm, they make recruiting decisions months or years in advance, using imperfect information. K&E themselves would take a smaller class if they had the benefit of hindsight. Nobody predicting a historic banking crisis and massive dealmaking slowdown when these kids were being hired.

This is right - law firms are hiring 1st year associates over 2 years in advance of their starting dates now.

[Anonymous User]

KE publicly bragged a lot about the 500+ summers, and 500 is a nice round number, so it's perfectly fine imo to keep saying 500 even if it's actually 425. It's still a huge increase from previous years, one that's clearly unsustainable. They deserve to be mocked for it. And the bootlickers who insist KE knows what they're doing are just sad. Do you think that'll save your job?

[nls336]

If this happens, what do people usually do between taking the bar and January? Get a part time job? Live with parents? Do firms give stipends to pay rent?

When I was delayed as a 2020 grad I ran up around $5k in credit bills trying to prepare for the October bar and stay alive; was also on unemployment and living off the very last of any money I'd saved from federal grants/relief and the summer may bonus (which mostly gets eaten by bar prep needs like adaptibar, etc.). To those who are pushed back my heart goes out to you -- it's a tough spot to be in. I'm at a good place now, if you need any help/advice feel free to reach out.

[nls336]

Why do people keep saying 500? Last article I read said 425.

Vault says 526 total (469 2Ls; 57 1Ls). The firm also said 469 in onboarding materials.

Lol regardless of whether it's closer to 400 or 500, it's way too much.

As Mono pointed out, 425 is the number of starting first years. The difference between 500+ and 425 here is 75+, which is a $20-30 million compensation expense when you include salary, healthcare, fringe benefits, office space, etc., which is king of... significant.

Firms need first years. KE is like 3,500 attorneys and grew its revenue $500 million in a down year. I'll leave it to them to decide what "too much" is but thanks for your thought provoking gut reaction.

K&E knows how to run a big law firm. But like any big law firm, they make recruiting decisions months or years in advance, using imperfect information. K&E themselves would take a smaller class if they had the benefit of hindsight. Nobody predicting a historic banking crisis and massive dealmaking slowdown when these kids were being hired.

This is right - law firms are hiring 1st year associates over 2 years in advance of their starting dates now.

I don't fully disagree about the imperfect nature of predicting economic cycles re: hiring, especially where the firm has shown good faith efforts to be loyal to associates, but based on the numbers and profits of even the biggest banks in the market, the banking crisis was about the whitest black swan imaginable. I mean, I literally took a class called "Finance for Social Theorists" in undergraduate in 2016 and the professor told us there would be another banking/liquidity crisis within a decade. IF Kirkland wants to pretend they have a crystal ball and call these layoffs performance based, THEN they deserve to have the fact that this was fairly predictable thrown in their faces.

[Anonymous User]

Why do people keep saying 500? Last article I read said 425.

Vault says 526 total (469 2Ls; 57 1Ls). The firm also said 469 in onboarding materials.

Lol regardless of whether it's closer to 400 or 500, it's way too much.

As Mono pointed out, 425 is the number of starting first years. The difference between 500+ and 425 here is 75+, which is a $20-30 million compensation expense when you include salary, healthcare, fringe benefits, office space, etc., which is king of... significant.

Firms need first years. KE is like 3,500 attorneys and grew its revenue $500 million in a down year. I'll leave it to them to decide what "too much" is but thanks for your thought provoking gut reaction.

K&E knows how to run a big law firm. But like any big law firm, they make recruiting decisions months or years in advance, using imperfect information. K&E themselves would take a smaller class if they had the benefit of hindsight. Nobody predicting a historic banking crisis and massive dealmaking slowdown when these kids were being hired.

This is right - law firms are hiring 1st year associates over 2 years in advance of their starting dates now.

I don't fully disagree about the imperfect nature of predicting economic cycles re: hiring, especially where the firm has shown good faith efforts to be loyal to associates, but based on the numbers and profits of even the biggest banks in the market, the banking crisis was about the whitest black swan imaginable. I mean, I literally took a class called "Finance for Social Theorists" in undergraduate in 2016 and the professor told us there would be another banking/liquidity crisis within a decade. IF Kirkland wants to pretend they have a crystal ball and call these layoffs performance based, THEN they deserve to have the fact that this was fairly predictable thrown in their faces.

I don't agree with KE's management decisions, but it's one thing to say some sort of liquidity crisis will occur sometime within the next decade. Being able to pinpoint when it will occur is another (and anyone able to do that with relative accuracy wouldn't be working in biglaw, they would be making much more money elsewhere).

[Anonymous User]

If this happens, what do people usually do between taking the bar and January? Get a part time job? Live with parents? Do firms give stipends to pay rent?

When I was delayed as a 2020 grad I ran up around $5k in credit bills trying to prepare for the October bar and stay alive; was also on unemployment and living off the very last of any money I'd saved from federal grants/relief and the summer may bonus (which mostly gets eaten by bar prep needs like adaptibar, etc.). To those who are pushed back my heart goes out to you -- it's a tough spot to be in. I'm at a good place now, if you need any help/advice feel free to reach out.

This is terrible. I'm sorry you experienced this. I'm unsure but I'm guessing if Kirkland pushed start dates to January, they'd provide a stipend between 10-15K. Kirkland does reimburse costs associated to the bar exam and provides a 10K summer stipend in addition to the reimbursement, so I imagine they would provide as much for the stipend if not slightly more. Might have to incorporate loan repayment costs?

If Kirkland does defer any later than October, in my opinion, it's a huge F-you to their incoming associates and their employees generally. Big law is big law and no firm prioritizes their people over profits. But for a firm with the financial success Kirkland has had and continues to have, there's really no excuse.