Question about being fired & future employment Forum

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throwawayforsafety

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Question about being fired & future employment

Post by throwawayforsafety » Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:21 am

Using a throwaway, but I am currently a rising 2nd year in a V10 firm. My hours are pretty shite for a mix of reasons - burnout, hate the work, bad firm culture, personal stuff. I am expecting to get let go as there were a few signs and was told my hours are low. I have an exit starting summer 2021, but may not make it long enough in biglaw. If I am let go, would future employers see me as fired or let go? Or will it be "attorney was employed between X and Y and left"?

I'm considering jumping to another firm for 6-8 months just to prevent a blemish like that on my background check if it came up.

Thanks for any wisdom you can provide.

TMJ2017

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Re: Question about being fired & future employment

Post by TMJ2017 » Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:48 pm

What is the exit in Summer 2021 and does your firm know you'll be leaving by then? If it's something prestigious (fed clerkship, for example), I doubt they will fire you so long as they know you have that on the horizon.

Also just want to note that I have never heard of a rising second year at my (non-v10) v50 firm getting approached to be fired for low hours, and shows the "v10 or bust" mentality among law students and on this forum is woefully misguided. I guess all that PPP doesn't trickle down to job stability for their FIRST YEAR attorneys - pretty shocking, frankly.

throwawayforsafety

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Re: Question about being fired & future employment

Post by throwawayforsafety » Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:55 pm

TMJ2017 wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:48 pm
What is the exit in Summer 2021 and does your firm know you'll be leaving by then? If it's something prestigious (fed clerkship, for example), I doubt they will fire you so long as they know you have that on the horizon.

Also just want to note that I have never heard of a rising second year at my (non-v10) v50 firm getting approached to be fired for low hours, and shows the "v10 or bust" mentality among law students and on this forum is woefully misguided. I guess all that PPP doesn't trickle down to job stability for their FIRST YEAR attorneys - pretty shocking, frankly.
It is a non-law exit. Complete career swap going for a graduate degree at a top program. Nobody knows about it because I would rather them not let me go to save $. Had a slow start and ramped up, but still need to improve.

emc91

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Re: Question about being fired & future employment

Post by emc91 » Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:56 pm

TMJ2017 wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:48 pm
What is the exit in Summer 2021 and does your firm know you'll be leaving by then? If it's something prestigious (fed clerkship, for example), I doubt they will fire you so long as they know you have that on the horizon.

Also just want to note that I have never heard of a rising second year at my (non-v10) v50 firm getting approached to be fired for low hours, and shows the "v10 or bust" mentality among law students and on this forum is woefully misguided. I guess all that PPP doesn't trickle down to job stability for their FIRST YEAR attorneys - pretty shocking, frankly.

Yeah, the only person I know who was let go within the first two years of biglaw for low hours was at a V10. At my firm, you’d have to actively screw up pretty horribly to not make it to your third year.

throwawayforsafety

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Re: Question about being fired & future employment

Post by throwawayforsafety » Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:01 pm

emc91 wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:56 pm
TMJ2017 wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:48 pm
What is the exit in Summer 2021 and does your firm know you'll be leaving by then? If it's something prestigious (fed clerkship, for example), I doubt they will fire you so long as they know you have that on the horizon.

Also just want to note that I have never heard of a rising second year at my (non-v10) v50 firm getting approached to be fired for low hours, and shows the "v10 or bust" mentality among law students and on this forum is woefully misguided. I guess all that PPP doesn't trickle down to job stability for their FIRST YEAR attorneys - pretty shocking, frankly.

Yeah, the only person I know who was let go within the first two years of biglaw for low hours was at a V10. At my firm, you’d have to actively screw up pretty horribly to not make it to your third year.
Yeah, given the culture of this office/firm I am not surprised if I am let go. Honestly, sometimes I hope it happens. Only reason I'm concerned is if there is an actual note somewhere that I was terminated. Background checks and employment verification may flag it and I prefer not to have that on my record.

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TMJ2017

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Re: Question about being fired & future employment

Post by TMJ2017 » Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:11 pm

throwawayforsafety wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:01 pm
emc91 wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:56 pm
TMJ2017 wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:48 pm
What is the exit in Summer 2021 and does your firm know you'll be leaving by then? If it's something prestigious (fed clerkship, for example), I doubt they will fire you so long as they know you have that on the horizon.

Also just want to note that I have never heard of a rising second year at my (non-v10) v50 firm getting approached to be fired for low hours, and shows the "v10 or bust" mentality among law students and on this forum is woefully misguided. I guess all that PPP doesn't trickle down to job stability for their FIRST YEAR attorneys - pretty shocking, frankly.

Yeah, the only person I know who was let go within the first two years of biglaw for low hours was at a V10. At my firm, you’d have to actively screw up pretty horribly to not make it to your third year.
Yeah, given the culture of this office/firm I am not surprised if I am let go. Honestly, sometimes I hope it happens. Only reason I'm concerned is if there is an actual note somewhere that I was terminated. Background checks and employment verification may flag it and I prefer not to have that on my record.
Standard practice is for the firm to confirm the dates that you were employed at the firm, regardless of whether you were "counseled out" or left entirely voluntarily. Also, given that you are switching careers entirely, I say you can probably safely enjoy a 6 month vacation in the event they fire you. Out of curiosity, what are you going into?

nixy

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Re: Question about being fired & future employment

Post by nixy » Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:59 pm

I think if you already have an escape plan for another field (grad school), it doesn't matter. First, if you make it to 2021 in your current job, your resume in future could simply say "law firm, 2019-2021; grad school 2021-[whenever]" and no one will even notice a gap. Obviously if an application form requires you to give months of employment, or someone specifically asks, you're truthful about it, but I don't think that's usually going to come up until after you've applied/been interviewed somewhere.

Second, even if there is an obvious gap, it's not going to be a big deal. By going to grad school, you're clearly choosing a new, different field, so it will be understandable/reasonable that you left the other job/took some time off to make the transition.

Third, even if there is an obvious gap and people looking at your resume decide it means you were let go, it doesn't matter. People get laid off all the time for lots of reasons. Future employers will be most interested in why you chose the new field you're going into, and what your skills/qualifications are in that field. You will definitely get asked about why you left law, but probably not as specifically about why you left that specific job (the assumption will be that you left that specific job because you were leaving the law).

To the extent this specific job comes up, and you have by that point been let go, you don't lie about it, but it's completely fair to roll it all into your "reasons for leaving the law [because my new field is SO AMAZING]" pitch. "Yes, I was let go from Firm X. By that point I had already realized that law was not a good fit for me because as a field, it doesn't offer the opportunity to do [all the amazing things your new field lets you do], and I had made the decision to go to graduate school. So it was honestly a relief when that position didn't work out because then I could focus entirely on preparing for [new field.]"

You may need to say something a little more substantive about the specific reason you were let go - hours or work quality or poor fit - but you don't know that yet, because you haven't been let go, and you don't know for certain why. So again, spin that as something where what made you a bad fit for law makes you a good fit for new field. (If new field is really collaborative, something about how law required a lot of sitting by yourself in an office and without the stimulation of collective work it was hard to focus. Or if the new field is very public-serving, you found it hard to engage in the firm work without seeing how it would really help people who needed it. Or whatever - there's always something you can say.)

But frankly you can probably spin it a lot of ways that have nothing to do with any weaknesses on your part - the firm didn't have enough work, covid, you left to address family issues that have since resolved. Mostly if you can give a confident answer acknowledging you were let go and pivot directly to what's great about your new field, people are very unlikely to probe further.

I feel like recent grads are convinced that ANY job gap is going to haunt them and be a black mark, and it's really not. A (fairly short) gap before going to grad school to change fields is understandable and not an issue. Even a gap between two firms in the same industry isn't a big deal - the issue is if you have lots of gaps or look like you're job hopping or regularly getting fired (so more than once). Sure, it's best never to have to explain being fired/let go to a potential employer. But lots of people have to do so, and survive it, and go on to better and better jobs.

throwawayforsafety

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Re: Question about being fired & future employment

Post by throwawayforsafety » Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:24 pm

TMJ2017 wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:11 pm
throwawayforsafety wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:01 pm
emc91 wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:56 pm
TMJ2017 wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:48 pm
What is the exit in Summer 2021 and does your firm know you'll be leaving by then? If it's something prestigious (fed clerkship, for example), I doubt they will fire you so long as they know you have that on the horizon.

Also just want to note that I have never heard of a rising second year at my (non-v10) v50 firm getting approached to be fired for low hours, and shows the "v10 or bust" mentality among law students and on this forum is woefully misguided. I guess all that PPP doesn't trickle down to job stability for their FIRST YEAR attorneys - pretty shocking, frankly.

Yeah, the only person I know who was let go within the first two years of biglaw for low hours was at a V10. At my firm, you’d have to actively screw up pretty horribly to not make it to your third year.
Yeah, given the culture of this office/firm I am not surprised if I am let go. Honestly, sometimes I hope it happens. Only reason I'm concerned is if there is an actual note somewhere that I was terminated. Background checks and employment verification may flag it and I prefer not to have that on my record.
Standard practice is for the firm to confirm the dates that you were employed at the firm, regardless of whether you were "counseled out" or left entirely voluntarily. Also, given that you are switching careers entirely, I say you can probably safely enjoy a 6 month vacation in the event they fire you. Out of curiosity, what are you going into?
That helps remove a lot of pressure. Of course, collecting a paycheck is important as i'll need the cash to survive. I'll be going for an MBA.

emc91

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Re: Question about being fired & future employment

Post by emc91 » Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:30 pm

Are you future me? I just started as a first year and I've known since I was a 3L that I don't want to be a lawyer. I'm much more interested in being on the business side. I'll probably go get an MBA in a few years if I can't weasel my way into a non-legal role without one.

Good luck!

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throwawayforsafety

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Re: Question about being fired & future employment

Post by throwawayforsafety » Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:31 pm

emc91 wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:30 pm
Are you future me? I just started as a first year and I've known since I was a 3L that I don't want to be a lawyer. I'm much more interested in being on the business side. I'll probably go get an MBA in a few years if I can't weasel my way into a non-legal role without one.

Good luck!
Haha. Definitely was what happened to me. Consulting etc really doesnt seem to care for experience in law as much as I'd hoped. Best of luck, balancing biglaw and MBA apps is difficult!

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Re: Question about being fired & future employment

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Dec 24, 2020 10:33 pm

Curious. How long can a junior last billing 100 to 120 a month and rejecting work or ghosting BS holiday work? Asking for a friend. Will they get talked to again first?

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