Going to small/midsize firm right out of law school Forum

(Advantages vs Disadvantages, Hours and Compensation, Career Growth Potential, Company Culture, Getting Hired, Types of Practices- general vs specialty vs complementary, Small & Midsized Firm reviews & experiences)
powerfail

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Going to small/midsize firm right out of law school

Post by powerfail » Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:53 pm

I'm at H/Y/S--most people of course go to Big Law or clerkships or public interest after graduation. I am considering whether I'd want to return to my home state (not a coastal state with a major legal market but not a tiny one either) and look for a job at a smaller law firm (e.g. with 10 attorneys). Wondering if anyone has taken this general path and can chime in on these questions:

1. Does the type of work done in local, smaller firms match well with the kind of skills that someone from a top law school would have? Top law schools, of course, select people with high LSAT scores and college GPA, and BigLaw firms seem to believe that people with those qualities (and grades in law school) will be successful attorneys. Is the same true for more ordinary law practice? (E.g., employment discrimination law, criminal defense, immigration, personal injury). My worry is that being a successful attorney in something like personal injury law requires a different skillset (e.g., being dramatic in front of a jury, advertising to find clients). But is that true? If so, are there particular small-law practice areas where academic ability is more relevant? (My interests include anti-discrimination, employment, intellectual property, constitutional law, and immigration. Some of these do exist at small law firms.)

2. What is the best way to find out about and apply to these firms? How do they usually select new associates? Do smaller, local law firms take the same factors into account as biglaw firms (e.g., grades, law review)?

3. I am guessing you get more responsibility earlier on, and that clients are less willing to pay for many hours of legal research and writing by associates (compared to corporate biglaw clients). So how does that end up working in practice? Do you worry about giving a client the wrong advice or missing important case law when filing a brief with the court? Or is it usually fine?

4. What are career advancement, salary progression, and job security like at these firms? With an H/Y/S degree, how feasible would it be to make a lateral move to BigLaw or go in-house at a company if things aren't going well at the small firm?

5. Is there much in-house work in smaller markets? I know that BigLaw => in-house at a large corporation is quite a common path. What about going from, say, a 20-person law firm in Omaha to being one of 2-3 in-house lawyers at a midsized company in Omaha with 300 employees?


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Re: Going to small/midsize firm right out of law school

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:31 am

Honestly, I would just start googling law firms in the area you want to practice, look at what they do, and look at what qualifications their attorneys have. Also look for alums in any of those firms and ask them if they have time to talk with you about their career path to a small firm and what they like/don't like and what are the best ways to approach the job search. It's pretty impossible to generalize about hiring, salary, career advancement, or exit options because it will depend so much on the firm - small firms are way more varied than big ones are.

The linked Harvard guide is (unsurprisingly) very good, but not all small firms are going to fit those categories. It may well be that the small firms Harvard grads go to generally do fit those categories, so this is all good information, but there are also plain old small firms doing things like criminal defense or construction law or personal injury and so on.

Going from a small firm to biglaw or in-house is also going to depend entirely on what you do in the small firm and what else is in the market. It seems kind of unlikely to me b/c I don't think a lot of small firms will give you the kind of experience that will be relevant to biglaw or a company, but I could be completely wrong.

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Re: Going to small/midsize firm right out of law school

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jul 14, 2022 2:36 pm

Your instincts are right on skill development. Small firms place a premium on the efficient delivery of legal services. As a junior lawyer, you will not have the ability hone your skills at a small firm in the same way that you will at a premium boutique or big law firm. You will not, for example, have the luxury to spend 40 hours writing your best brief or shadowing other attorneys at hearings or depositions. There is less of a focus on making no mistakes and more of a bias towards action. A first year associate at plaintiff-side firm might defend a dozen depositions in their first year, but query whether that associate really understands how those depositions will be used at trial. Small firms do, however, teach you to be organized and manage staff well. The people who succeed at small firms are good at operations. They know how to juggle lots of small cases, know all the local court rules and how to take advantage of them, think on their feet, manage staff efficiently, rely on staff for paper pushing, etc. At small firms, you learn by doing, not watching, and that has its advantages and disadvantages.

Compensation is usually lower starting off, but if you hustle and build a practice in your community, you can make a very good living. There are a lot of small businesses and wealthy individuals in America in every community who need bread and butter legal services. Think small contract disputes, or if you're on the transactional side, setting up partnership agreements, etc. Making partner is easier and more rewarding. You will have your own book of business, not a partner in name only. You will be regarded as a true counselor in your local business community.

Small firm lawyers may find it challenging going in house. Most of it has to do with the fact that companies look for the top law school/big law firm pedigree because it's a proxy for ability to handle complex issues and competence. Small firm lawyers can be highly competent with respect to operations, but there is wide range when it comes to intelligence, quality of skills, etc. It's almost impossible for a company to assess the skills of a small firm lawyer. In house jobs are not impossible to get, but it will require real networking and personal connections.

Lateral move to big law is possible if the hiring market is banging (like now), its early in your career, your law school grades are solid, and you have a good story (like moving from Omaha to SF for your spouse). After about year 3 or 4, I would say it's impossible.

powerfail

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Re: Going to small/midsize firm right out of law school

Post by powerfail » Fri Jul 22, 2022 11:53 am

When I ask whether it's possible to go in-house, I don't mean at a large corporation with a large legal department. Rather, are there usually local, 100-employee businesses which need 2-3 in-house attorneys, and if so, how hard would it be to become one if you've been at a local law firm for a few years?

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Re: Going to small/midsize firm right out of law school

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jul 22, 2022 12:55 pm

It depends on the firm so no one can really answer you. These are questions you need to figure out from networking or even glassdoor. I will note 2 things tho (for context I struck out in OCI, got biglaw in 3L hiring but in between interviewed with several smaller firms and summered at one).

1) your resume will be vastly improved throughout your career by a stint in biglaw. The smaller firms will always be there and may even give you extra seniority. For eg at one smaller firm, the partners all had biglaw background while the homegrown associates took much longer to make partner.

2) beware of the "biglaw hours for half the money" trap. The firm I summered at had 170/month billable requirement. An associate at another firm told me how the schedule was so wonderful bc he could leave work at 5:30 "and then work from home for a few more hours later" -- which is exactly what everyone at my biglaw does. One interviewer felt the need to inform me that "we are not a lifestyle firm".

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Re: Going to small/midsize firm right out of law school

Post by rrwwa » Sat Jul 23, 2022 7:39 pm

I moved from biglaw to a small/midsized firm in a non-coastal, small market. I'm at a defense firm with 40-50 lawyers, so maybe bigger than what you're looking for. But here's my take on your questions.

1. Definitely. In fact, I think getting a top tier legal education can only help you in a smaller market. There will be skills you need to learn, just like every other junior lawyer, like how to actually litigate your own cases, take depositions, argue in court, go to trial, etc. You will have to learn them faster at a smaller firm in a smaller market. But being a strong writer and having sharp legal reasoning skills, which I'm assuming you do if you're at a top school, will give you a strong leg up over many of your peers. If you're going to be a trial lawyer, whether for plaintiffs or defense, you'll have to learn how to present to a jury. But that doesn't necessarily mean having a lot of bluster or being showy. People have different styles.

2. The best way to find out about firms is to clerk in the state or call on your network. Do you know anyone in the state who is a lawyer? Reach out and tell them you're looking to move home after law school and would love to talk to them to understand the market a bit better. Set up a meeting or call and ask them about different firms and their reputations. If you don't know anyone, look at the alum databases for your undergrad and law school. Reach out to anyone in your alum networks and set up a call or meeting. Also consider whether anyone you know from law school is also from your state, and ask them if they know any lawyers they can put you in touch with. This is what I did to start putting out feelers. I got really, really helpful information about different firm's reputations.

As for how firms hire, in my market, many do so informally. They don't always post a job listing when they are looking. The best option is to have someone from your networks put you in touch with a firm you're interested in. If that doesn't shake out, reach out to whatever email address or phone number the firms have on their website with your application materials.

3. You will get more experience early on for sure. You do need to work efficiently, but honestly, it's not a big concern. Your hourly rate will be a fraction of your rate if you went to a major city so your labor is just cheaper. Many (not all) of the legal issues in your cases will be simpler. I write a lot of briefs in the 5-10 page range. I do not worry about how long something takes me. I have never felt pressured to cut corners and possibly miss the right answer by working quickly to keep costs down.

4. My firm is bigger than you reference so maybe isn't a good example for you. But job stability is probably better than in biglaw. My firm doesn't hire nearly as many associates as a biglaw firm and almost everyone makes partner. Unlike biglaw, they do not hire with the assumption that most associates will leave or not make it. I don't really know about making a lateral move back to biglaw--I have no desire to return!

5. As for in house gigs, that will vary wildly depending on your city. People from my firm go in house occasionally to insurance and healthcare industries, sometimes the big utilities company. But my market is quite small so there just aren't that many businesses that have in house legal teams.

Not something you asked about, but one other piece of advice: be humble. Let the quality of your work speak for itself. Don't come in acting like you are better than others, or smarter, or fancier because you went to HYS when most of your colleagues went to a local school. Your credentials will get you a lot of respect but only if people don't think you're arrogant etc.

Best of luck!

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Re: Going to small/midsize firm right out of law school

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Oct 21, 2022 11:06 am

Someone said this:
Your instincts are right on skill development. Small firms place a premium on the efficient delivery of legal services. As a junior lawyer, you will not have the ability hone your skills at a small firm in the same way that you will at a premium boutique or big law firm. You will not, for example, have the luxury to spend 40 hours writing your best brief or shadowing other attorneys at hearings or depositions. There is less of a focus on making no mistakes and more of a bias towards action. A first year associate at plaintiff-side firm might defend a dozen depositions in their first year, but query whether that associate really understands how those depositions will be used at trial.


I started my career at a small firm, then went to a big firm, yada yada no doxing myself but I've had a good and fulfilling career in litigation with a bunch of jury trials. "You will not have the ability to hone your skills at a small firm" compared to a big law firm does not jibe with my experience at all. I had completed approximately 150 depositions by the time I was a third year associate, around the time I switched to a large firm. I had also authored appellate briefs, argued substantive motions in oral arguments, and been in all kinds of crazy-ass chaotic situations in cases, especially those depos. In the ensuing years the massive advantage I had gained over typical biglaw attorneys was glaringly obvious to me. Their deposition skills were almost always amateurish even at the level of 10 years of experience: poor questioning techniques, picking fights about stupid issues that are not worth spending time on, wasting time by squabbling with lawyers over improper objections, and so on.

The truth is that private law firms, big or small, plainly do not invest the massive amount of time it takes to train young lawyers on litigation skills. So, would you rather spend those first five years of your career writing memos and doing Westlaw research, or just get thrown into the pool where you're forced to learn how to swim?

I won't pretend this is black or white with one clear answer. But I would argue that jumping into the pool has tremendous advantages. If you're in that category, you tend to seek out your support network: friends at your own age level, friendly senior associates who don't have narcissistic personality disorders, older mentors, etc. Your experience while in the trenches forces you to read more, study more, and get mentored more on how to be a real trial-level litigator even if getting to those prized jury trials is difficult. If you seek the prestige factor of a big firm, much less the cash dollars to pay off loans in those early years, so be it. But if you're gravitating toward a smaller firm for any number of reasons, you will in fact gain advantages that will serve you well in the long run. IMO.

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