Why is UC Berkeley Law So Hard to Get Into? Forum

[Other25BeforeYou]

I'm jealous.

Many well known people from small school = that school is "teh awesomeness" on the college scale.

I read up on it and many students start at 16! That is all kinds of cool.

You know, I must ask too if you have the time.
What is the school really like? The classes? Professors? Setting? (Opposite-sex? )

You're my only link to that sort of academic world, and I'm endlessly fascinated by it. Small east coast schools with beautiful scenery, I'm a total sucker.

I know that going to a school like Princeton would be close to a million times more work than what I had/have, but I would have embraced that opprtunity with open arms. I'd probably be a much more erudite fellow than I am now. It kind of makes me sad thinking about that...

Yeah, most of the students are sixteen when they start. I was. About half of the students transfer out after they get their AAs, and half stick around for their BAs. Then usually 10-20 students transfer back because they don't like the places they transferred to. While I was there, lots of people transferred back from Bard, a few from University of Chicago, one from Brown, one from Columbia, and then a few other people from other schools.

The school itself was a bit socially difficult at times. There are so few people that you know everyone, and everyone knows your business. It's sort of secluded, as it's about a mile outside a medium sized town in the Berkshires.

However, it size is also what makes it amazing. Class sizes are very small and classes are always discussion based. Professors (who are always called by their first name, so my psych professor wasn't "Professor O'dwyer" or "Dr. O'dwyer," she was just Anne) absolutely know their subjects thoroughly, but also prefer that students do most of the talking. The professors also prefer students to question what they say rather than accepting it blindly.

Also, because the school is so small, students literally know all of the faculty and staff. If the provost of the college drives by me, she'll pull over and ask me how my singing lessons are going. Professors I've never taken a class with shoot me e-mails if they haven't seen me around campus in awhile. It's an amazingly supportive environment.

But it's also incredibly intense. There's a common saying at Simon's Rock that goes, "There are three things at Simon's Rock: Sleep, work, and play. You get to choose two." Most students spend as much time on homework each week as they would on a full time job. I was a lit major, and most of the lit classes sophomore year and up at a book a week, which can get a little crazy when you're taking five lit classes.

But no student ever came out of Simon's Rock afraid of hard work.

[DanielCA]

I'm jealous.

Many well known people from small school = that school is "teh awesomeness" on the college scale.

I read up on it and many students start at 16! That is all kinds of cool.

You know, I must ask too if you have the time.
What is the school really like? The classes? Professors? Setting? (Opposite-sex? )

You're my only link to that sort of academic world, and I'm endlessly fascinated by it. Small east coast schools with beautiful scenery, I'm a total sucker.

I know that going to a school like Princeton would be close to a million times more work than what I had/have, but I would have embraced that opprtunity with open arms. I'd probably be a much more erudite fellow than I am now. It kind of makes me sad thinking about that...

Yeah, most of the students are sixteen when they start. I was. About half of the students transfer out after they get their AAs, and half stick around for their BAs. Then usually 10-20 students transfer back because they don't like the places they transferred to. While I was there, lots of people transferred back from Bard, a few from University of Chicago, one from Brown, one from Columbia, and then a few other people from other schools.

The school itself was a bit socially difficult at times. There are so few people that you know everyone, and everyone knows your business. It's sort of secluded, as it's about a mile outside a medium sized town in the Berkshires.

However, it size is also what makes it amazing. Class sizes are very small and classes are always discussion based. Professors (who are always called by their first name, so my psych professor wasn't "Professor O'dwyer" or "Dr. O'dwyer," she was just Anne) absolutely know their subjects thoroughly, but also prefer that students do most of the talking. The professors also prefer students to question what they say rather than accepting it blindly.

Also, because the school is so small, students literally know all of the faculty and staff. If the provost of the college drives by me, she'll pull over and ask me how my singing lessons are going. Professors I've never taken a class with shoot me e-mails if they haven't seen me around campus in awhile. It's an amazingly supportive environment.

But it's also incredibly intense. There's a common saying at Simon's Rock that goes, "There are three things at Simon's Rock: Sleep, work, and play. You get to choose two." Most students spend as much time on homework each week as they would on a full time job. I was a lit major, and most of the lit classes sophomore year and up at a book a week, which can get a little crazy when you're taking five lit classes.

But no student ever came out of Simon's Rock afraid of hard work.

Sounds really terrific, thank you for that write-up!
I can't imagine calling my professors by their first name, but I guess that's what makes liberal arts schools so interesting.

And knowing everybody? Pssh, I'd be lucky to know one of 50 people walking by me on campus.

But still, I think the school is probably most valuable because of how much work they make their students go through.
I was reading up on Bard College (not Simon's Rock) and there's something like an 80 page paper students have to write and show it to faculty members. That is frightenningly intense.

I mean, we have a departmental honors program of course where you have to write a senior thesis, but it's optional and I don't know anybody who's doing one. I don't want to make it seem like we don't do anything, but it certainly seems less academically daunting than colleges of SR's ilk.

Anyway, good luck to you sir with your upcoming cycle!

[Other25BeforeYou]

I'm jealous.

Many well known people from small school = that school is "teh awesomeness" on the college scale.

I read up on it and many students start at 16! That is all kinds of cool.

You know, I must ask too if you have the time.
What is the school really like? The classes? Professors? Setting? (Opposite-sex? )

You're my only link to that sort of academic world, and I'm endlessly fascinated by it. Small east coast schools with beautiful scenery, I'm a total sucker.

I know that going to a school like Princeton would be close to a million times more work than what I had/have, but I would have embraced that opprtunity with open arms. I'd probably be a much more erudite fellow than I am now. It kind of makes me sad thinking about that...

Yeah, most of the students are sixteen when they start. I was. About half of the students transfer out after they get their AAs, and half stick around for their BAs. Then usually 10-20 students transfer back because they don't like the places they transferred to. While I was there, lots of people transferred back from Bard, a few from University of Chicago, one from Brown, one from Columbia, and then a few other people from other schools.

The school itself was a bit socially difficult at times. There are so few people that you know everyone, and everyone knows your business. It's sort of secluded, as it's about a mile outside a medium sized town in the Berkshires.

However, it size is also what makes it amazing. Class sizes are very small and classes are always discussion based. Professors (who are always called by their first name, so my psych professor wasn't "Professor O'dwyer" or "Dr. O'dwyer," she was just Anne) absolutely know their subjects thoroughly, but also prefer that students do most of the talking. The professors also prefer students to question what they say rather than accepting it blindly.

Also, because the school is so small, students literally know all of the faculty and staff. If the provost of the college drives by me, she'll pull over and ask me how my singing lessons are going. Professors I've never taken a class with shoot me e-mails if they haven't seen me around campus in awhile. It's an amazingly supportive environment.

But it's also incredibly intense. There's a common saying at Simon's Rock that goes, "There are three things at Simon's Rock: Sleep, work, and play. You get to choose two." Most students spend as much time on homework each week as they would on a full time job. I was a lit major, and most of the lit classes sophomore year and up at a book a week, which can get a little crazy when you're taking five lit classes.

But no student ever came out of Simon's Rock afraid of hard work.

Sounds really terrific, thank you for that write-up!
I can't imagine calling my professors by their first name, but I guess that's what makes liberal arts schools so interesting.

And knowing everybody? Pssh, I'd be lucky to know one of 50 people walking by me on campus.

But still, I think the school is probably most valuable because of how much work they make their students go through.
I was reading up on Bard College (not Simon's Rock) and there's something like an 80 page paper students have to write and show it to faculty members. That is frightenningly intense.

I mean, we have a departmental honors program of course where you have to write a senior thesis, but it's optional and I don't know anybody who's doing one. I don't want to make it seem like we don't do anything, but it certainly seems less academically daunting than colleges of SR's ilk.

Anyway, good luck to you sir with your upcoming cycle!

I'm actually not a sir, but a lady-type. Simon's Rock students are required to do a senior thesis too. Writing a 75 page thesis was an interesting experience very similar to having a baby. A lot of the time you want to throw up, and you start crying at very random times, and the last 24 hours are incredibly painful, but when it's over you have this beautiful thing that's a piece of you.

[ilove]

my UG's average GPA is 3.02

where is that on the scale? low? high?

[Other25BeforeYou]

For Berkeley? I think their average is 3.7 or 3.8.

[DanielCA]

I'm jealous.

Many well known people from small school = that school is "teh awesomeness" on the college scale.

I read up on it and many students start at 16! That is all kinds of cool.

You know, I must ask too if you have the time.
What is the school really like? The classes? Professors? Setting? (Opposite-sex? )

You're my only link to that sort of academic world, and I'm endlessly fascinated by it. Small east coast schools with beautiful scenery, I'm a total sucker.

I know that going to a school like Princeton would be close to a million times more work than what I had/have, but I would have embraced that opprtunity with open arms. I'd probably be a much more erudite fellow than I am now. It kind of makes me sad thinking about that...

Yeah, most of the students are sixteen when they start. I was. About half of the students transfer out after they get their AAs, and half stick around for their BAs. Then usually 10-20 students transfer back because they don't like the places they transferred to. While I was there, lots of people transferred back from Bard, a few from University of Chicago, one from Brown, one from Columbia, and then a few other people from other schools.

The school itself was a bit socially difficult at times. There are so few people that you know everyone, and everyone knows your business. It's sort of secluded, as it's about a mile outside a medium sized town in the Berkshires.

However, it size is also what makes it amazing. Class sizes are very small and classes are always discussion based. Professors (who are always called by their first name, so my psych professor wasn't "Professor O'dwyer" or "Dr. O'dwyer," she was just Anne) absolutely know their subjects thoroughly, but also prefer that students do most of the talking. The professors also prefer students to question what they say rather than accepting it blindly.

Also, because the school is so small, students literally know all of the faculty and staff. If the provost of the college drives by me, she'll pull over and ask me how my singing lessons are going. Professors I've never taken a class with shoot me e-mails if they haven't seen me around campus in awhile. It's an amazingly supportive environment.

But it's also incredibly intense. There's a common saying at Simon's Rock that goes, "There are three things at Simon's Rock: Sleep, work, and play. You get to choose two." Most students spend as much time on homework each week as they would on a full time job. I was a lit major, and most of the lit classes sophomore year and up at a book a week, which can get a little crazy when you're taking five lit classes.

But no student ever came out of Simon's Rock afraid of hard work.

Sounds really terrific, thank you for that write-up!
I can't imagine calling my professors by their first name, but I guess that's what makes liberal arts schools so interesting.

And knowing everybody? Pssh, I'd be lucky to know one of 50 people walking by me on campus.

But still, I think the school is probably most valuable because of how much work they make their students go through.
I was reading up on Bard College (not Simon's Rock) and there's something like an 80 page paper students have to write and show it to faculty members. That is frightenningly intense.

I mean, we have a departmental honors program of course where you have to write a senior thesis, but it's optional and I don't know anybody who's doing one. I don't want to make it seem like we don't do anything, but it certainly seems less academically daunting than colleges of SR's ilk.

Anyway, good luck to you sir with your upcoming cycle!

I'm actually not a sir, but a lady-type. Simon's Rock students are required to do a senior thesis too. Writing a 75 page thesis was an interesting experience very similar to having a baby. A lot of the time you want to throw up, and you start crying at very random times, and the last 24 hours are incredibly painful, but when it's over you have this beautiful thing that's a piece of you.

Ah, right, apologies for that. 'Twas quite inconsiderate of me to assume you to be a sir judging by your avatar.

75 page thesis sounds truly painful, but it also sounds nice to have something to show for your college career. I find that very impressive.

I'll amend my last statement here...good luck to you good lady!

[Other25BeforeYou]

Yeah, most of the students are sixteen when they start. I was. About half of the students transfer out after they get their AAs, and half stick around for their BAs. Then usually 10-20 students transfer back because they don't like the places they transferred to. While I was there, lots of people transferred back from Bard, a few from University of Chicago, one from Brown, one from Columbia, and then a few other people from other schools.

The school itself was a bit socially difficult at times. There are so few people that you know everyone, and everyone knows your business. It's sort of secluded, as it's about a mile outside a medium sized town in the Berkshires.

However, it size is also what makes it amazing. Class sizes are very small and classes are always discussion based. Professors (who are always called by their first name, so my psych professor wasn't "Professor O'dwyer" or "Dr. O'dwyer," she was just Anne) absolutely know their subjects thoroughly, but also prefer that students do most of the talking. The professors also prefer students to question what they say rather than accepting it blindly.

Also, because the school is so small, students literally know all of the faculty and staff. If the provost of the college drives by me, she'll pull over and ask me how my singing lessons are going. Professors I've never taken a class with shoot me e-mails if they haven't seen me around campus in awhile. It's an amazingly supportive environment.

But it's also incredibly intense. There's a common saying at Simon's Rock that goes, "There are three things at Simon's Rock: Sleep, work, and play. You get to choose two." Most students spend as much time on homework each week as they would on a full time job. I was a lit major, and most of the lit classes sophomore year and up at a book a week, which can get a little crazy when you're taking five lit classes.

But no student ever came out of Simon's Rock afraid of hard work.

Sounds really terrific, thank you for that write-up!
I can't imagine calling my professors by their first name, but I guess that's what makes liberal arts schools so interesting.

And knowing everybody? Pssh, I'd be lucky to know one of 50 people walking by me on campus.

But still, I think the school is probably most valuable because of how much work they make their students go through.
I was reading up on Bard College (not Simon's Rock) and there's something like an 80 page paper students have to write and show it to faculty members. That is frightenningly intense.

I mean, we have a departmental honors program of course where you have to write a senior thesis, but it's optional and I don't know anybody who's doing one. I don't want to make it seem like we don't do anything, but it certainly seems less academically daunting than colleges of SR's ilk.

Anyway, good luck to you sir with your upcoming cycle!

I'm actually not a sir, but a lady-type. Simon's Rock students are required to do a senior thesis too. Writing a 75 page thesis was an interesting experience very similar to having a baby. A lot of the time you want to throw up, and you start crying at very random times, and the last 24 hours are incredibly painful, but when it's over you have this beautiful thing that's a piece of you.

Ah, right, apologies for that. 'Twas quite inconsiderate of me to assume you to be a sir judging by your avatar.

75 page thesis sounds truly painful, but it also sounds nice to have something to show for your college career. I find that very impressive.

I'll amend my last statement here...good luck to you good lady!

The avatar is a picture of Tom Waits.

And thanks a lot, for the luck and the interest in the school. Good luck to you as well.

[goldengaff]

Can people not start threads like this? It would make me so much more comfortable. Thanks.

[mcds]

Academically I would say the Ivies go Princeton, Yale, Harvard, Columbia/Dartmouth/Penn, Brown, Cornell.

From a strictly academic perspective Swarthmore, Amherst and Williams - in my opinion - could rank equal or higher in that department than any of the lower Ivies.

care to add stan, MIT or CalTech?

I don't think you can really compare Brown to MIT or CalTech - they're two completely different schools. Stanford I could see. If I were to do the top 10 rankings of Liberal Arts programs I'd probably do:

1. Princeton
2. Yale
3. Harvard
3. Stanford
5. Dartmouth
5. UPenn
5. Duke
8. Columbia
8. Swarthmore
8. Amherst

but for quantitative

1. MIT
2. CIT
3. Harvard
4. Yale
5. Princeton
6. U Chicago
6. Stanford
8. Duke
8. Columbia
8. UPenn

and overall

1. Princeton
1. Harvard
3. Yale
4. Stanford
5. MIT
5. CIT
7. Dartmouth
7. Duke
7. UPenn
7. Columbia

And actually I talked to a professor at my school who taught at Harvard and moved to a non-HYP who said that the teaching at HYP really isn't that great and a lot of professors just have their TAs do everything because they're too busy doing research.

[fluffy]

Academically I would say the Ivies go Princeton, Yale, Harvard, Columbia/Dartmouth/Penn, Brown, Cornell.

From a strictly academic perspective Swarthmore, Amherst and Williams - in my opinion - could rank equal or higher in that department than any of the lower Ivies.

care to add stan, MIT or CalTech?

I don't think you can really compare Brown to MIT or CalTech - they're two completely different schools. Stanford I could see. If I were to do the top 10 rankings of Liberal Arts programs I'd probably do:

1. Princeton
2. Yale
3. Harvard
3. Stanford
5. Dartmouth
5. UPenn
5. Duke
8. Columbia
8. Swarthmore
8. Amherst

but for quantitative

1. MIT
2. CIT
3. Harvard
4. Yale
5. Princeton
6. U Chicago
6. Stanford
8. Duke
8. Columbia
8. UPenn

and overall

1. Princeton
1. Harvard
3. Yale
4. Stanford
5. MIT
5. CIT
7. Dartmouth
7. Duke
7. UPenn
7. Columbia

And actually I talked to a professor at my school who taught at Harvard and moved to a non-HYP who said that the teaching at HYP really isn't that great and a lot of professors just have their TAs do everything because they're too busy doing research.

.

[mcds]

Like I said, those are all good schools...but its all relative to the median LSAT scores

Like Washington & Lee has a median of 161, which is equal to Cornell's I think.

Just because it might not have a big name, doesn't mean its not an excellent school.

[ilove]

my UG's average GPA is 3.02

where is that on the scale? low? high?

For Berkeley? I think their average is 3.7 or 3.8.

sorry, I should have been less ambiguous. the average grades handed out at my UG is 3.02

I'm wondering if my school is the norm.

[tagc]

Yes, some schools look at the GPA a LITTLE more than other schools, but most schools if not all still use the LSAT to comprise 70-80% of the total admissions index score. So a school like Cal or Stanford or Yale may use a 70/30 LSAT/GPA split whereas Harvard or Columbia may use a 80/20 split.

The LSAT is still going to be the biggest factor.

I know a guy (non-URM) that got into UPenn with a 3.1 (way below 25%) and a 174 (3 points above 75 percentile).

[Other25BeforeYou]

Academically I would say the Ivies go Princeton, Yale, Harvard, Columbia/Dartmouth/Penn, Brown, Cornell.

From a strictly academic perspective Swarthmore, Amherst and Williams - in my opinion - could rank equal or higher in that department than any of the lower Ivies.

care to add stan, MIT or CalTech?

I don't think you can really compare Brown to MIT or CalTech - they're two completely different schools. Stanford I could see. If I were to do the top 10 rankings of Liberal Arts programs I'd probably do:

1. Princeton
2. Yale
3. Harvard
3. Stanford
5. Dartmouth
5. UPenn
5. Duke
8. Columbia
8. Swarthmore
8. Amherst

but for quantitative

1. MIT
2. CIT
3. Harvard
4. Yale
5. Princeton
6. U Chicago
6. Stanford
8. Duke
8. Columbia
8. UPenn

and overall

1. Princeton
1. Harvard
3. Yale
4. Stanford
5. MIT
5. CIT
7. Dartmouth
7. Duke
7. UPenn
7. Columbia

And actually I talked to a professor at my school who taught at Harvard and moved to a non-HYP who said that the teaching at HYP really isn't that great and a lot of professors just have their TAs do everything because they're too busy doing research.

I can't even comprehend why anyone would ever put Dartmouth, Upenn or Duke above Williams, Amherst or Swarthmore in the liberal arts category. My friend at Upenn says the liberal arts courses are the easiest As he's ever gotten in his life, and Dartmouth and Duke aren't supposed to be much better.

[fsohn]

This post is a bloody joke. Leaving Chicago out of the liberal arts rankings is an absurdity of absurdities. As a proud Chicago alumnus, I bow only to Yale and Princeton, and to them without any joy.

[Other25BeforeYou]

That's funny, 'cause the people I know who went to University of Chicago said it was a bloody joke.

[hayman]

This post is a bloody joke. Leaving Chicago out of the liberal arts rankings is an absurdity of absurdities. As a proud Chicago alumnus, I bow only to Yale and Princeton, and to them without any joy.

ain't chicago a badass quant school too?

[fsohn]

That's funny, 'cause the people I know who went to University of Chicago said it was a bloody joke.

It's come closer to being a joke since the Core reforms (aka pillaging of our academic treasure by a series of incomptent and malevolent administrator-infidels), but it still remains a non-joke.

I hope you all realize that I'm being intentionally over-the-top.

[Other25BeforeYou]

That's funny, 'cause the people I know who went to University of Chicago said it was a bloody joke.

It's come closer to being a joke since the Core reforms (aka pillaging of our academic treasure by a series of incomptent and malevolent administrator-infidels), but it still remains a non-joke.

I hope you all realize that I'm being intentionally over-the-top.

I do. I hope you realize I don't actually think University of Chicago is a joke, I was just being flip.

But I really don't know if I think of it as top ten. I don't think of my school as top ten, and the kids who transferred to Chicago all transferred back because they said it wasn't very challenging (my school is filled with dorks who enjoy rigorous classes).

[fsohn]

Are you by any chance from St. John's?

When I'm judging rigor, I mean this. I've never met a graduate of any school save Princeton or Yale in my department whom I considered to be better educated than I am. I only judge a school to be more rigorous than Chicago if it educates better, and the only pittance of evidence I have is from the people I've met.

[Other25BeforeYou]

x

[hayman]

who cares about these baccalaureate schools?

[kritiosboy]

Yes, some schools look at the GPA a LITTLE more than other schools, but most schools if not all still use the LSAT to comprise 70-80% of the total admissions index score. So a school like Cal or Stanford or Yale may use a 70/30 LSAT/GPA split whereas Harvard or Columbia may use a 80/20 split.

The LSAT is still going to be the biggest factor.

I know a guy (non-URM) that got into UPenn with a 3.1 (way below 25%) and a 174 (3 points above 75 percentile).

Shut up, you're wrong. Almost no one gets into Berkeley under a certain gpa threshold. The LSAT is really negotiatable for them. And, Penn admissions=/= berkeley admissions.

Berkeley is so hard to get into because there are a whole lot of ppl in Cali per decent law school.

[mcds]

I think the best way to rank them in the context of LS admission is the LSAT median.

And Dartmouth/Duke/Columbia are only behind HYPS

[mcds]

That's funny, 'cause the people I know who went to University of Chicago said it was a bloody joke.

It's come closer to being a joke since the Core reforms (aka pillaging of our academic treasure by a series of incomptent and malevolent administrator-infidels), but it still remains a non-joke.

I hope you all realize that I'm being intentionally over-the-top.

I do. I hope you realize I don't actually think University of Chicago is a joke, I was just being flip.

But I really don't know if I think of it as top ten. I don't think of my school as top ten, and the kids who transferred to Chicago all transferred back because they said it wasn't very challenging (my school is filled with dorks who enjoy rigorous classes).

Chicago snuck into the top ten last year over Dartmouth, but I'd hardly put it over the latter overall. It'll probably drop back after Dartmouth's president gets replaced.

Its a great school, but isn't quite on the level of Duke-Penn-Dartmouth-Columbia that typically have a stronghold on the lower half of the top ten behind HYP and then Stanford/MIT/CIT