Is it Worth Practicing Oddball Logic Games? Forum

[RamTitan]

Any thoughts on perfecting older logic game types that have not been on the tests in some years?

[gotCentred]

Absolutely. My two cents: I got a circle game when I took, since I had reviewed it that week I knew exactly what to do. I believe that's what got me past the 170 threshold, and I think this is the type of thing that differentiates good from great LSATs.

[Binghamton1018]

I'm studying for the June exam, so I can speak from very recent experience. I have been sprinkling in "oddball" games but not necessarily because I think the LSAC will revive strange and unique games that elude "traditional" setups (PT 2 G3 for example), but because I want my approach to games to be adaptable and malleable enough to be able to roll with the punches of the occasional odd game. With me, I've got basic linear and basic grouping games down cold my friend-I mean I have done over 400 over the course of my prep, yet when I come across a game I have no idea how to set-up, I have been freezing. Last week I time-drilled the games section of PT 40. I finished Games 1,2 and 4 in 19 minutes. I was looking at Game 3 with 16 minutes on the clock and could not figure it out for the life of me! I was -4 for the section and all 4 were from that game. This is a problem I have recognized in my approach to games. A problem I am going to have to solve in the next 4 months and 2 weeks.

To use an analogy, do you watch or are you familiar with Mixed Martial Arts? If one were training for an MMA match it would make sense to spend say 90% of one's time on the "basics": slipping a jab, ducking under a right hook, takedown defense, guard retention, proper scrambling etc. Yet one must be aware of the tendency of one's opponent to throw the rare spinning back-kick or wheel kick. The normal games are those fundamentals many of us spend so much time drilling. Preparation for those oddball games are the awareness of those wildcards.

[pterodactyls]

They are becoming more and more common. In the days of the LG Bible and 7sage videos, LSAC is realizing that its games are very learnable. The December test had an algorithm game, which I had never seen before on any preptests. Would definitely be worth practicing all the "oddball" games so you don't freak out if one appears on test day.

[MAPP]

I'm studying for the June exam, so I can speak from very recent experience. I have been sprinkling in "oddball" games but not necessarily because I think the LSAC will revive strange and unique games that elude "traditional" setups (PT 2 G3 for example), but because I want my approach to games to be adaptable and malleable enough to be able to roll with the punches of the occasional odd game. With me, I've got basic linear and basic grouping games down cold my friend-I mean I have done over 400 over the course of my prep, yet when I come across a game I have no idea how to set-up, I have been freezing. Last week I time-drilled the games section of PT 40. I finished Games 1,2 and 4 in 19 minutes. I was looking at Game 3 with 16 minutes on the clock and could not figure it out for the life of me! I was -4 for the section and all 4 were from that game. This is a problem I have recognized in my approach to games. A problem I am going to have to solve in the next 4 months and 2 weeks.

To use an analogy, do you watch or are you familiar with Mixed Martial Arts? If one were training for an MMA match it would make sense to spend say 90% of one's time on the "basics": slipping a jab, ducking under a right hook, takedown defense, guard retention, proper scrambling etc. Yet one must be aware of the tendency of one's opponent to throw the rare spinning back-kick or wheel kick. The normal games are those fundamentals many of us spend so much time drilling. Preparation for those oddball games are the awareness of those wildcards.

Where are you getting, or how are you classifying, "oddball" games? I've got the "difficult LG" drill packet from Cambridge, and am assuming that would cover oddball game.

[Binghamton1018]

I'm studying for the June exam, so I can speak from very recent experience. I have been sprinkling in "oddball" games but not necessarily because I think the LSAC will revive strange and unique games that elude "traditional" setups (PT 2 G3 for example), but because I want my approach to games to be adaptable and malleable enough to be able to roll with the punches of the occasional odd game. With me, I've got basic linear and basic grouping games down cold my friend-I mean I have done over 400 over the course of my prep, yet when I come across a game I have no idea how to set-up, I have been freezing. Last week I time-drilled the games section of PT 40. I finished Games 1,2 and 4 in 19 minutes. I was looking at Game 3 with 16 minutes on the clock and could not figure it out for the life of me! I was -4 for the section and all 4 were from that game. This is a problem I have recognized in my approach to games. A problem I am going to have to solve in the next 4 months and 2 weeks.

To use an analogy, do you watch or are you familiar with Mixed Martial Arts? If one were training for an MMA match it would make sense to spend say 90% of one's time on the "basics": slipping a jab, ducking under a right hook, takedown defense, guard retention, proper scrambling etc. Yet one must be aware of the tendency of one's opponent to throw the rare spinning back-kick or wheel kick. The normal games are those fundamentals many of us spend so much time drilling. Preparation for those oddball games are the awareness of those wildcards.

Where are you getting, or how are you classifying, "oddball" games? I've got the "difficult LG" drill packet from Cambridge, and am assuming that would cover oddball game.

My experience basically. I have several of the Cambridge packets also (including the miscellaneous packet, which condenses some tricky ones into a single source) but the ones I have struggled with are ones that don't really fall into categories. Below are several that I myself have felt a bit off with, again, these have felt odd to me and at first glance I have been unable to really understand them at this moment in my studies:
10-2-3
40-2-3
18-1-3
15-4-2 (of course)

These games aren't snakes and lizards/mauve dinosaurs hard, but to me at least I knew how to setup those games. lol.

[Binghamton1018]

Oh, I should also add that I think pound for pound, "Pretest C" is the hardest section of games I have taken personally. These games weren't tricky or odd per-se but are hard in more or less a "traditional" sense.

[patzan221]

It may sound crazy, but I believe that playing the old minesweeper game on the computer helped me get up to a 175.

[harvardorbust2016]

I want to echo everyone who said to keep practicing oddball games. You want your approach to be as logic based, rather than formula based, as possibly. I firmly believe G3 on the Dec 2015 LSAT was included to trip up those of us (myself included) who are dependent on a formulaic approach.

[RamTitan]

Where are you getting, or how are you classifying, "oddball" games? I've got the "difficult LG" drill packet from Cambridge, and am assuming that would cover oddball game.

Is this book my best bet to get ready for these type of games?

Thanks for the advice everyone; it seems pretty obvious that I need to hit the books lol.

[MAPP]

Where are you getting, or how are you classifying, "oddball" games? I've got the "difficult LG" drill packet from Cambridge, and am assuming that would cover oddball game.

Is this book my best bet to get ready for these type of games?

Thanks for the advice everyone; it seems pretty obvious that I need to hit the books lol.

It's not a book, they're just drill packets sold by Cambridge. A good book is powerscore LG.

[RamTitan]

Where are you getting, or how are you classifying, "oddball" games? I've got the "difficult LG" drill packet from Cambridge, and am assuming that would cover oddball game.

Is this book my best bet to get ready for these type of games?

Thanks for the advice everyone; it seems pretty obvious that I need to hit the books lol.

It's not a book, they're just drill packets sold by Cambridge. A good book is powerscore LG.

That's what I meant.

I have PowerScore LG. I'm pretty good at this section; 0-2 questions wrong. Working on getting 0 wrong more consistently though.

[mbk271613]

They are becoming more and more common. In the days of the LG Bible and 7sage videos, LSAC is realizing that its games are very learnable. The December test had an algorithm game, which I had never seen before on any preptests. Would definitely be worth practicing all the "oddball" games so you don't freak out if one appears on test day.

Totally agree with everything that's been said in this thread. Like OP, I am struggling to single out specific "oddball games" to study. One that comes to mind is Game 4 from June 2014, with the Summit Company workers and their workpieces--anyone familiar with it, would you call that an algorithm game?

[pterodactyls]

They are becoming more and more common. In the days of the LG Bible and 7sage videos, LSAC is realizing that its games are very learnable. The December test had an algorithm game, which I had never seen before on any preptests. Would definitely be worth practicing all the "oddball" games so you don't freak out if one appears on test day.

Totally agree with everything that's been said in this thread. Like OP, I am struggling to single out specific "oddball games" to study. One that comes to mind is Game 4 from June 2014, with the Summit Company workers and their workpieces--anyone familiar with it, would you call that an algorithm game?

What I meant by "algorithm game" is one that has you place people in groups according to their preferences.

So Person A's first choice is to be in Group 3, second choice is to be in Group 4, etc.
Person B's first choice is to be in Group 3, second choice is to be in Group 1, etc.
etc. etc.

Then you have to run scenarios depending on who gets to pick first (because if Person A goes first and picks Group 3, then Person B will move on to his/her second choice, which may be another person's first choice, which may be another person's third choice, etc.). It gets complicated. It was Game 3 on the December 2015 LSAT, and it was the first time I've seen a game like it on any LSAT.

[RamTitan]

Where are you getting, or how are you classifying, "oddball" games? I've got the "difficult LG" drill packet from Cambridge, and am assuming that would cover oddball game.

Is this book my best bet to get ready for these type of games?

Thanks for the advice everyone; it seems pretty obvious that I need to hit the books lol.

It's not a book, they're just drill packets sold by Cambridge. A good book is powerscore LG.

Hey, is this what you're talking about?

http://www.amazon.com/LSAT-Challenge-Di ... ogic+games

[MAPP]

Where are you getting, or how are you classifying, "oddball" games? I've got the "difficult LG" drill packet from Cambridge, and am assuming that would cover oddball game.

Is this book my best bet to get ready for these type of games?

Thanks for the advice everyone; it seems pretty obvious that I need to hit the books lol.

It's not a book, they're just drill packets sold by Cambridge. A good book is powerscore LG.

Hey, is this what you're talking about?

http://www.amazon.com/LSAT-Challenge-Di ... ogic+games

Definitely don't buy logic games that include explanations since 7sage gives you that for free. Follow this link here to Cambridge's website:
https://www.cambridgelsat.com/problem-sets/logic-games/

[Binghamton1018]

They are becoming more and more common. In the days of the LG Bible and 7sage videos, LSAC is realizing that its games are very learnable. The December test had an algorithm game, which I had never seen before on any preptests. Would definitely be worth practicing all the "oddball" games so you don't freak out if one appears on test day.

Totally agree with everything that's been said in this thread. Like OP, I am struggling to single out specific "oddball games" to study. One that comes to mind is Game 4 from June 2014, with the Summit Company workers and their workpieces--anyone familiar with it, would you call that an algorithm game?

What I meant by "algorithm game" is one that has you place people in groups according to their preferences.

So Person A's first choice is to be in Group 3, second choice is to be in Group 4, etc.
Person B's first choice is to be in Group 3, second choice is to be in Group 1, etc.
etc. etc.

Then you have to run scenarios depending on who gets to pick first (because if Person A goes first and picks Group 3, then Person B will move on to his/her second choice, which may be another person's first choice, which may be another person's third choice, etc.). It gets complicated. It was Game 3 on the December 2015 LSAT, and it was the first time I've seen a game like it on any LSAT.

Hey, outside of the LSAT have you ever seen anything like December 2015 G3? Anything similar at all?

[pterodactyls]

Hey, outside of the LSAT have you ever seen anything like December 2015 G3? Anything similar at all?

Yes, actually, in my economics class. Which was really helpful when it came up on the test. We read a few papers on algorithms for school choice in Boston and NYC, as well as kidney exchanges, and our professor gave us some example problems to solve - very similar to the problem presented in G3.

The economist that is most famous for this type of work is Al Roth. He used to be a professor at Harvard, but is now at Stanford. You could google "al roth kidney exchange" or "al roth boston school mechanism" and some academic papers will come up. If you're interested at all in economics, they could be worth a read. They're not terribly complicated to understand and are pretty interesting, though the issues they face are far more complicated than what would appear in an LSAT problem.

I probably have some of my old work from that class saved on my laptop at home. I could possibly post a few of the example problems later.


Edit: If you scroll down to the "work" section, it'll give you brief descriptions of the NYC/Boston/kidney examples. Basically, very complicated versions of what was G3:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_E._Roth

[Binghamton1018]

Hey, outside of the LSAT have you ever seen anything like December 2015 G3? Anything similar at all?

Yes, actually, in my economics class. Which was really helpful when it came up on the test. We read a few papers on algorithms for school choice in Boston and NYC, as well as kidney exchanges, and our professor gave us some example problems to solve - very similar to the problem presented in G3.

The economist that is most famous for this type of work is Al Roth. He used to be a professor at Harvard, but is now at Stanford. You could google "al roth kidney exchange" or "al roth boston school mechanism" and some academic papers will come up. If you're interested at all in economics, they could be worth a read. They're not terribly complicated to understand and are pretty interesting to read, though the issues they face are far more complicated than what would appear in an LSAT problem.

I probably have some of my old work saved from that class on my laptop at home. I could probably post a few of the example problems later.


Edit: If you scroll down to the "work" section, it'll give you some brief description of the NYC/Boston/Kidney examples. Basically, very complicated versions of what was G3:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_E._Roth

Thank you so much for such a response. I am googling them now. People like you make TLS an amazing community to learn from and learn with!

[RamTitan]

Where are you getting, or how are you classifying, "oddball" games? I've got the "difficult LG" drill packet from Cambridge, and am assuming that would cover oddball game.

Is this book my best bet to get ready for these type of games?

Thanks for the advice everyone; it seems pretty obvious that I need to hit the books lol.

It's not a book, they're just drill packets sold by Cambridge. A good book is powerscore LG.

Hey, is this what you're talking about?

http://www.amazon.com/LSAT-Challenge-Di ... ogic+games

Definitely don't buy logic games that include explanations since 7sage gives you that for free. Follow this link here to Cambridge's website:
https://www.cambridgelsat.com/problem-sets/logic-games/

Wow, thanks for being super helpful!

[railyard]

Is the algorithm game the same as the pattern game, or are they two completely different games?

[MAPP]

Wow, thanks for being super helpful!

Happy to help my friend

[mma_litigator]

Hey, outside of the LSAT have you ever seen anything like December 2015 G3? Anything similar at all?

Yeah, on some TV game shows and different reality TV competition shows like Survivor, cooking competition shows like Hell's Kitchen and Master Chef and others where groups and/or contestants have to take turns selecting things or team members. Also in sports like with draft picks and in some other life things with a random drawing of who gets to pick first, second, etc. and/or people have to submit a list of 1st, 2nd, 3rd choice, etc. with something where more people want particular choices/things than can have it.

It's actually a pretty common type of system used IRL in many different types of situations from my experiences. I thought that game was pretty easy and finished it in about 6 minutes with -0 when I took it for real on test day last month.

[clovis]

You should do every logic game!

As for the oddball games, in recent years the 4th game has been getting weirder and weirder, with some interesting parallels to some of the earliest games. At the very least, doing weird games helps your mental agility and helps you practice keeping your cool while operating within a totally unfamiliar and uncomfortable game scenario.

That said, you shouldn't beat yourself up or waste a lot of time really learning those games in the same depth you would for more modern ones.

Also note, even on the oldest tests, usually only one or two games will be weird and the rest will be pretty much just like ones you'll find today.