Top Law Schools

Posted: **Fri Sep 26, 2014 12:19 am**

I'm looking to start law school next year.

Taking the LSAT in a few days. I'm not scoring very well at all on the PT. For the love of humanity I can't seem to stop from missing an average of 8 questions per section. I even spend hours reviewing what I did wrong. I can usually whittle them down to the last two contenders but I just don't see things at all the way LSAC seems to think I should

The bottom line is I have no desire to practice law at all. I very simply would like to augment my current professional experience with a JD. No way am I going to find myself working 60 hours a week for some firm at the 20% chance of becoming a partner.

Ultimately I would like to do International Mergers and Acquisitions Secondly, I've already got a pretty good career in Human Resources - the degree will only make me more competitive.

My question is how focused do I need to be about the LSAT score?

I mean, even if I wanted to get into a good law school (T-14) can't I just get accepted some place and transfer into one later, provided I show the right stuff in L1?

Further, I've got a pretty good personal statement - I was decorated for valor in combat in the middle east, meritoriously promoted started my own consulting company, philanthropy hard knock life etc....

How much can I count on this to help me get into a good school?

Its already becoming obvious that I'll need to retake in december but I'm not willing to wait another year to go to law school. I'm already too old for that bs.

What would you guys do in my situation? I just need to know how to put my energy to good use because I'm not a typical case.

Oh and my law school is already paid for so I don't need scholarships at all.

Posted: **Fri Sep 26, 2014 12:30 am**

Rasiedbyapikey wrote:I'm looking to start law school next year.

Taking the LSAT in a few days. I'm not scoring very well at all on the PT. For the love of humanity I can't seem to stop from missing an average of 8 questions per section. I even spend hours reviewing what I did wrong. I can usually whittle them down to the last two contenders but I just don't see things at all the way LSAC seems to think I should

The bottom line is I have no desire to practice law at all. I very simply would like to augment my current professional experience with a JD. No way am I going to find myself working 60 hours a week for some firm at the 20% chance of becoming a partner.

Ultimately I would like to do International Mergers and Acquisitions Secondly, I've already got a pretty good career in Human Resources - the degree will only make me more competitive.

My question is how focused do I need to be about the LSAT score?

I mean, even if I wanted to get into a good law school (T-14) can't I just get accepted some place and transfer into one later, provided I show the right stuff in L1?

Further, I've got a pretty good personal statement - I was decorated for valor in combat in the middle east, meritoriously promoted started my own consulting company, philanthropy hard knock life etc....

How much can I count on this to help me get into a good school?

Its already becoming obvious that I'll need to retake in december but I'm not willing to wait another year to go to law school. I'm already too old for that bs.

What would you guys do in my situation? I just need to know how to put my energy to good use because I'm not a typical case.

Oh and my law school is already paid for so I don't need scholarships at all.

I'm an 0L so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

1.) The bottom line is I have no desire to practice law at all.

Everyone else ITT is gonna say don't go for this reason alone. I say do whatever you want. You know the cons (time), so if the pros outweigh them (for you), and the risk is acceptable, go for it.

2.) My question is how focused do I need to be about the LSAT score?

Very

3.) I mean, even if I wanted to get into a good law school (T-14) can't I just get accepted some place and transfer into one later, provided I show the right stuff in L1?

If you study for hours and cannot get less than -8/section on the LSAT, you likely will not be able to be in the top 1% of your class in order to transfer to T14 (and depending on where you go, not even that might be possible).

4.) Further, I've got a pretty good personal statement - I was decorated for valor in combat in the middle east, meritoriously promoted started my own consulting company, philanthropy hard knock life etc....

This cannot make up for a lack of LSAT. A school will probably pick your 170 over mine (all else equal), but they'll pick my 170 over your 165 every time (all else equal).

My advice:

Since you have a full ride wherever you go, aim for a 165+ LSAT and ED to a T14 that isn't Northwestern, where you're only slightly below median. Considering how law school will be paid for regardless, I'd say it's worth it to go, but it's not worth 3 years of your life to get a degree from Nobody University, which is what will happen if you can't at least get ~165. I think law schools need a few people paying sticker, and you get to be one of those people.

Posted: **Fri Sep 26, 2014 12:41 am**

Rasiedbyapikey wrote:I'm looking to start law school next year.

Taking the LSAT in a few days. I'm not scoring very well at all on the PT. For the love of humanity I can't seem to stop from missing an average of 8 questions per section. I even spend hours reviewing what I did wrong. I can usually whittle them down to the last two contenders but I just don't see things at all the way LSAC seems to think I should

The bottom line is I have no desire to practice law at all. I very simply would like to augment my current professional experience with a JD. No way am I going to find myself working 60 hours a week for some firm at the 20% chance of becoming a partner.

Ultimately I would like to do International Mergers and Acquisitions Secondly, I've already got a pretty good career in Human Resources - the degree will only make me more competitive.

My question is how focused do I need to be about the LSAT score?

I mean, even if I wanted to get into a good law school (T-14) can't I just get accepted some place and transfer into one later, provided I show the right stuff in L1?

Further, I've got a pretty good personal statement - I was decorated for valor in combat in the middle east, meritoriously promoted started my own consulting company, philanthropy hard knock life etc....

How much can I count on this to help me get into a good school?

Its already becoming obvious that I'll need to retake in december but I'm not willing to wait another year to go to law school. I'm already too old for that bs.

What would you guys do in my situation? I just need to know how to put my energy to good use because I'm not a typical case.

Oh and my law school is already paid for so I don't need scholarships at all.

1) Are you sure a law degree is the best path for you?

2) You're going to either need to cancel & retake, or accept a lower score & retake - but you'll need to retake.

3) What kind of international M&A are you going to do not at a firm? Do you think 3 years of opportunity cost in wagers are worth the bump to your HR career? - couldn't you just get an EMBA and safe a ton of time?

Posted: **Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:50 am**

http://images.onesite.com/capcom-unity. ... ng?v=77688

Posted: **Fri Sep 26, 2014 7:40 am**

Assuming not troll: Do not go to law school. It will not "augment your professional experience" or make you "more competitive" in any way -- it will pigeonhole you into one specific path that has pretty crappy job prospects (especially from where you're considering going to school).

No, going to a crap school with the intention to transfer is a horrible idea that will most likely result in crippling debt and failure. Actually going to most schools will result in this. Do not go to law school.

Posted: **Fri Sep 26, 2014 8:02 am**

Pretty sure this isn't serious, but if it is - spend a little time reading advice around here, because this really comes off as if it's trying to hit as many make-TLS-angry spots as possible. Don't go to Law School if you don't want to practice, and the whole idea of transferring into a T14 later if you do well in 1L is illogical.

Posted: **Fri Sep 26, 2014 10:23 am**

"to hit as many make-TLS-angry spots as possible"

Huh? I'm not concerned with pissing TLS people off. In fact, why should my situation piss anyone off - maybe that has more to do with them and less to do with me.

1) I'm a very real person. You can ask my Marines.

2) I'm not looking for career advice - I'm going to law school. The options have already been considered.

"If you study for hours and cannot get less than -8/section on the LSAT, you likely will not be able to be in the top 1% of your class in order to transfer to T14 (and depending on where you go, not even that might be possible)."

Talk about a good assumption question. There is no correlation between the LSAT and Law School performance. There is also zero correlation between LSAT performance and the ability to be an attorney. Statistical inferences require a less than 5% error rate to be reliable. LSAT/Law school performance do not have this.

I'm sorry but it seems like most of the responses thus far are people who put -understandably- a lot of focus on the LSAT because they don't have anything else to go on. LSAT is not the end all be all of this world. Yes a good score opens the possibility to open doors but there are plenty of good lawyers out there who didn't go to T14 or score a 167+ folks. Do you think Gerry Spence got a 170 on his LSAT?

I do appreciate people's advice but if you are a 23 y/o just out of college and the LSAT is the only thing you have to focus on in your life I don't think your advice will be applicable.

However, if you are a successful L3 or lawyer currently working in a firm or in BALA some place I would like to hear from you.

Posted: **Fri Sep 26, 2014 10:56 am**

Practicing lawyer here. Similar to your situation; i.e. have/had an existing career prior to law school. Went to a night program so there were many people with situations closer to mine and yours, rather than the TLS sheep (albeit smart sheep).

Kind of confused with what your plans are. Are you planning to work and going to school at the same time? It seems like your choices are limited if that's the case.

Since you don't want to practice law, but want to move up the ladder with your HR job, as long as you go to a decent school (i.e. not Indiana Tech), it'll be fine. I had a close classmate in LS who was going to the night program on his company's dime. He was already doing some vendor management work and the company was using outside firms to handle contracts. He had to work with the lawyers from these firms. So the company put him through law school so he can manage the firms more effectively. He was almost 50 years old at the time. He didn't really need T14 or high LSAT. YMMV.

Posted: **Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:20 am**

OP -- Repost this/ask the mods to move this to the admissions forum or the choosing forum if you want to get the regulars (ie actual students/attorneys) to chime in. They don't come to this forum as frequently.

Posted: **Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:22 am**

rdawkins28 wrote:Practicing lawyer here. Similar to your situation; i.e. have/had an existing career prior to law school. Went to a night program so there were many people with situations closer to mine and yours, rather than the TLS sheep (albeit smart sheep).

Kind of confused with what your plans are. Are you planning to work and going to school at the same time? It seems like your choices are limited if that's the case.

Since you don't want to practice law, but want to move up the ladder with your HR job, as long as you go to a decent school (i.e. not Indiana Tech), it'll be fine. I had a close classmate in LS who was going to the night program on his company's dime. He was already doing some vendor management work and the company was using outside firms to handle contracts. He had to work with the lawyers from these firms. So the company put him through law school so he can manage the firms more effectively. He was almost 50 years old at the time. He didn't really need T14 or high LSAT. YMMV.

OP told me he wants corporate in-house; so he pry wants T14 or high LSAT.

Posted: **Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:31 am**

Rasiedbyapikey wrote:I'm looking to start law school next year.

Congrats?

Taking the LSAT in a few days. I'm not scoring very well at all on the PT. For the love of humanity I can't seem to stop from missing an average of 8 questions per section. I even spend hours reviewing what I did wrong.

See, you say the LSAT isn't important but you clearly know that it's at least of SOME relevance or else you wouldn't bother to include this. Is this a solicitation of LSAT advice (a day before the test)?

I can usually whittle them down to the last two contenders but I just don't see things at all the way LSAC seems to think I should

It's not the way LSAC seems to think you should, but logically that's what the syntax of the passage suggests. If you can't pick up what the author in passage A is trying to convey, you also might not able to pick up what C.J. so-and-so is trying to say in his opinion. Yeah, it's tough to accept that you're not 100% logical 100% of the time but that's exactly what the LSAT is testing.

The bottom line is I have no desire to practice law at all.

Not off to the greatest start for law school where you spend the entirety of your time devoted to learning how to practice law.

I very simply would like to augment my current professional experience with a JD.

Well this is kind of a problem. A JD pretty much only augments the professional experience as it pertains to lawyers. I can't imagine an executive HR position requiring, or even advantaged through a law degree. If there was a legal issue, you would just ship it over to the legal dept. I don't think you can/should be 1-stop shopping for a business as HR and Legal all in one go even if you had the credentials.

No way am I going to find myself working 60 hours a week for some firm at the 20% chance of becoming a partner.
...
Ultimately I would like to do International Mergers and Acquisitions.

Well now it goes completely off-track. In this hypo, you're not working in HR anymore, definitely taking a job as a lawyer, will definitely work 60+ hrs a week, and will require a top LSAT to get into the top 14 and eventually biglaw, correlation be damned. Even a 23 year old fresh out of college with no work experience can make that connection.

Secondly, I've already got a pretty good career in Human Resources - the degree will only make me more competitive.

or will it put a 3 year gap in your resume and a professional degree that's tangentially related at best? Would a MD make you more competitive? PE license?

My question is how focused do I need to be about the LSAT score?

To do international mergers and acquisitions? Very much so.

I mean, even if I wanted to get into a good law school (T-14) can't I just get accepted some place and transfer into one later, provided I show the right stuff in L1?

Much in the same way you can go play in the Canadian Football League and transfer to the NFL if you show the right stuff.

Further, I've got a pretty good personal statement - I was decorated for valor in combat in the middle east, meritoriously promoted started my own consulting company, philanthropy hard knock life etc....

How much can I count on this to help me get into a good school?

The military softs and work experience definitely do give you a boost but without your GPA/LSAT we can't even begin to read the tea leaves for you.

Its already becoming obvious that I'll need to retake in december but I'm not willing to wait another year to go to law school. I'm already too old for that bs.

What would you guys do in my situation? I just need to know how to put my energy to good use because I'm not a typical case.

Oh and my law school is already paid for so I don't need scholarships at all.

Things you have in your favor: Military.
Things against your favor: Everything else (LSAT, reasons to go to law school, expectations of how law school is, expectations of the legal market in general, attitude towards admissions process, applying late in cycle, etc.).

I know a couple ex-military people in my class and they all come in cocky as hell because they think they've got the discipline and that they can grind through LS through sheer will and determination. To an extent, they can and all ended up around median or better. However LS is also about natural aptitude. If you don't do well in the LSATs you probably don't recognize patterns very well and you don't parse information very quickly. Those are essential exam skills. If you didn't do well in undergrad it means you aren't a natural grinder and need the strict regimen of the military to kick your ass into grinder gear. I'm not saying you embody those examples specifically but those are the guidelines under which adcomms are operating.

Posted: **Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:06 pm**

Comments outlined with * *

pancakes3 wrote:
Rasiedbyapikey wrote:I'm looking to start law school next year.
Congrats?

Taking the LSAT in a few days. I'm not scoring very well at all on the PT. For the love of humanity I can't seem to stop from missing an average of 8 questions per section. I even spend hours reviewing what I did wrong.
See, you say the LSAT isn't important but you clearly know that it's at least of SOME relevance or else you wouldn't bother to include this. Is this a solicitation of LSAT advice (a day before the test)?

*For someone who thinks they have the right stuff you are failing to see many avenues of my argument. I never said it wasn't important to the application process - I said it wasn't the end all be all in life's endeavors and that the application process is one of MANY MANY cogs in the wheel. And I'll give you an example. My first job out of the Marines someone who went to Harvard Law was working for me - I wonder if she thought her LSAT prep was worth it?*

Secondly, I would think solicitation of LSAT advice would be valid at any time in relation to the test. Not sure what your reasoning is here future counsel. Please just don't respond to my points because you don't like them - please respond to them because you have something valid to add - life experience would be a good example*

I can usually whittle them down to the last two contenders but I just don't see things at all the way LSAC seems to think I should
It's not the way LSAC seems to think you should, but logically that's what the syntax of the passage suggests. If you can't pick up what the author in passage A is trying to convey, you also might not able to pick up what C.J. so-and-so is trying to say in his opinion. Yeah, it's tough to accept that you're not 100% logical 100% of the time but that's exactly what the LSAT is testing.

*HA! They really have you brainwashed to think that logic wins arguments?! Remember the glove that didn't fit, you must acquit?! Come on dude! In the whitewashed sterile environs of LS its probably true. And I'm certainly NOT saying that logic doesn't help but there is much much more to it and you know that*

The bottom line is I have no desire to practice law at all.
Not off to the greatest start for law school where you spend the entirety of your time devoted to learning how to practice law.

*Restatement - no desire to litigate or represent clients. Being a lawyer to me means one knows the law and how to navigate them*

I very simply would like to augment my current professional experience with a JD.
Well this is kind of a problem. A JD pretty much only augments the professional experience as it pertains to lawyers. I can't imagine an executive HR position requiring, or even advantaged through a law degree. If there was a legal issue, you would just ship it over to the legal dept. I don't think you can/should be 1-stop shopping for a business as HR and Legal all in one go even if you had the credentials.

*And you have experience to make this determination how?*

No way am I going to find myself working 60 hours a week for some firm at the 20% chance of becoming a partner.
...
Ultimately I would like to do International Mergers and Acquisitions.
Well now it goes completely off-track. In this hypo, you're not working in HR anymore, definitely taking a job as a lawyer, will definitely work 60+ hrs a week, and will require a top LSAT to get into the top 14 and eventually biglaw, correlation be damned. Even a 23 year old fresh out of college with no work experience can make that connection.

*Although its probably true, legal firms do a lot of M&A due diligence so do top accounting firms should I become an accountant than too? HR (with the right experience) is in a very good position to asses Human Capital value of firms being acquired - this is often hard to do. I disagree that this is off track mandates me being a lawyer. You are making some pretty broad leaps in logic - for one, you don't even know my professional experience. See thinking outside the box isn't something the LSAT can teach you my friend. Again, I'm not looking for career advice - have plenty of that.

To do international mergers and acquisitions? Very much so.

*If you are going to state something, please provide factual information, not opinion.*

To do international mergers and acquisitions? Very much so.

*If you are going to state something, please provide factual information, not opinion.*
Much in the same way you can go play in the Canadian Football League and transfer to the NFL if you show the right stuff.

*OK you are admitting its possible. Thank you - and BTW Joe Theismann started in the CFL first.*

Further, I've got a pretty good personal statement - I was decorated for valor in combat in the middle east, meritoriously promoted started my own consulting company, philanthropy hard knock life etc....

How much can I count on this to help me get into a good school?
The military softs and work experience definitely do give you a boost but without your GPA/LSAT we can't even begin to read the tea leaves for you.

*The best damn point you've made yet. 3.2/LSAT 160*

Its already becoming obvious that I'll need to retake in december but I'm not willing to wait another year to go to law school. I'm already too old for that bs.

What would you guys do in my situation? I just need to know how to put my energy to good use because I'm not a typical case.

Oh and my law school is already paid for so I don't need scholarships at all.
Things you have in your favor: Military.
Things against your favor: Everything else (LSAT, reasons to go to law school, expectations of how law school is, expectations of the legal market in general, attitude towards admissions process, applying late in cycle, etc.).

I know a couple ex-military people in my class and they all come in cocky as hell because they think they've got the discipline and that they can grind through LS through sheer will and determination. To an extent, they can and all ended up around median or better. However LS is also about natural aptitude. If you don't do well in the LSATs you probably don't recognize patterns very well and you don't parse information very quickly. Those are essential exam skills. If you didn't do well in undergrad it means you aren't a natural grinder and need the strict regimen of the military to kick your ass into grinder gear. I'm not saying you embody those examples specifically but those are the guidelines under which adcomms are operating.

I'm not sure how liking the admissions process becomes applicable to me getting into school. It sounds like you are a little too emotional about my post. Not doing well on LSAT = not recognizing patterns very well and parsing information? Wow my friend, I hope you have statistical data to back that up - else you are crapping on a lot of people for no reason. And btw - patterns don't = guilt or innocence.

BTW - what school did you end up getting into, how old are you and what professional experience do you have?

Posted: **Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:13 pm**

rdawkins28 wrote:Practicing lawyer here. Similar to your situation; i.e. have/had an existing career prior to law school. Went to a night program so there were many people with situations closer to mine and yours, rather than the TLS sheep (albeit smart sheep).

Kind of confused with what your plans are. Are you planning to work and going to school at the same time? It seems like your choices are limited if that's the case.

Since you don't want to practice law, but want to move up the ladder with your HR job, as long as you go to a decent school (i.e. not Indiana Tech), it'll be fine. I had a close classmate in LS who was going to the night program on his company's dime. He was already doing some vendor management work and the company was using outside firms to handle contracts. He had to work with the lawyers from these firms. So the company put him through law school so he can manage the firms more effectively. He was almost 50 years old at the time. He didn't really need T14 or high LSAT. YMMV.

Hey boss, thanks for taking the time to respond. I've got a full ride from the VA so I'm looking to go to school full time in the days - but if I was offered some nice gig in HR I'd probably do the night school thing. I would like to keep attending HR conferences and networking events though - maybe take a client on the side

Sounds like your friend got a pretty sweet deal! Not usual that companies will invest in older workers like that (just making a statement about frequency, not morality) Good for him.

If I got a 160 and w a 3.2 and some fireworks shooting out of my ass on my personal statement - would it be possible to land T25?

Posted: **Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:18 pm**

Rasiedbyapikey wrote: I'm not sure how liking the admissions process becomes applicable to me getting into school. It sounds like you are a little too emotional about my post. Not doing well on LSAT = not recognizing patterns very well and parsing information? Wow my friend, I hope you have statistical data to back that up - else you are crapping on a lot of people for no reason. And btw - patterns don't = guilt or innocence.

BTW - what school did you end up getting into, how old are you and what professional experience do you have?

If you don't want to be a lawyer why go to law school? It's not going to help you the way you think it will. Nothing else really matters in the thread, because it will still cost you something: 3 years of your salary. I can understand where you are coming from, but I think it is smart to not go to law school and waste your time.

Posted: **Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:20 pm**

can anyone tell me how to get the mods to move this thread? I actually just discovered this forum a few days ago and don't know much about it.

Posted: **Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:30 pm**

I know someone who is the HR Director for a major Canadian bank and that person tells me that the majority of new people coming into or working their way up the department have a JD. I'm assuming this is why the OP wants his JD and their may be some basis to getting one for the purpose of career advancement. So consider that before you shoot him down on that basis.

Posted: **Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:41 pm**

Speaking to everybody who's saying "If you don't want to do law, don't go": let him do what he wants. He's weighed the pros and cons.

In regards to your "I can get into a lower ranked school and transfer to T14".

Here is a website from LSAC discussing the correlation between LSAT score and 1L performance: http://www.lsac.org/docs/default-source ... rmance.pdf

Here is the relevant section for you:

"The correlation between LSAT scores and first-year law school grades varies from one law school to another (as does the correlation between GPA and first-year law school grades). During 2010, validity studies were conducted for 189 law schools. Correlations between LSAT scores and first-year law school grades ranged from .12 to .56 (median is .36). The correlations between UGPA and first-year law grades ranged from .09 to .45 (median is .28). However, correlations between LSAT scores combined with undergraduate grade-point averages and first-year law school grades ranged from .30 to .62 (median is .48)."

Look, if you're going to bitch and moan about how the LSAT isn't as significant a factor in admissions as everybody else says it is, then fine. We're just strangers on the internet. We have no incentive to deceive you. Your attitude, however, is unwelcome.

If I got a 160 and w a 3.2 and some fireworks shooting out of my ass on my personal statement - would it be possible to land T25?

GPA and LSAT score are going to account for a majority of admissions. Here is a spreadsheet of medians of law schools: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... _web#gid=9

Class of 2016, rank 25, University of Washington. Bottom 25th percentile LSAT is 161, Bottom 25th percentile GPA is 3.42.

Your numbers are in the bottom 25% of accepted applicants for both metrics. Do you have a chance at admissions? Sure. But it's not a good one.

And by the way, in case you're not aware, the reason why law schools care way much more about your numbers than they do about your PT/resume is that their rank is directly affected by their medians. You're going to be pulling down both of their medians, so you need a damn good reason for them to accept the median hit. Law schools want diverse and spectacular individuals attending their schools, but they don't want that as much as they want to maintain their rank/raise their rank.

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