Top Law Schools

Posted: **Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:45 pm**

I have no idea what's going on, but it's concerning me. Up until a week ago, I was doing well on LR and LG. Typically id ace LG and get 0-3 wrong on LR (these were time sections, but not full length tests). My RC accuracy is not bad, but speed is an issue. Anyways, based on how I was doing during individual timed sections, I predicted I could hit between 164 and 166 on a full length test provided endurance wasnt an issue. My prediction turned out to correspond well with my first full length test where I scored a 164 (though I uncharacteristically lost two points in LG). The following week, I took another test after review and drilling the days prior and got a disappointing 158 (initially miscalculated as 157). But I was tired and somewhat disengaged with the test (half trying). So I chalked it up to brain fog and poor attitude. Today, I went into another full length test with the right attitude but feeling stressed and somewhat tired. During LR and LG, there were times when I felt confused and/or blanked out. I under performed on both sections in comparison to how I typically do during timed practice and I felt out of flow and off...as if the questions were suddenly foreign to me. I got a depressing 159.
Any idea what is going on? Is this mental fatigue? Stress related? Lack of sleep related? Or do I just not know what Im doing? My test date is 3 weeks away and Im feeling like someone pulled the rug from under my feet...like im in a bad dream.

Posted: **Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:00 pm**

Wait, I don't understand how you're acing LG and going only -3 on LR and getting 164-166, unless you're bombing RC.

Anyway, you said yourself that you weren't feeling up to it on both occasions. They're also only two tests, so it's a small sample altogether.

Posted: **Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:12 pm**

Lg 21 (I said I uncharacteristically got two less that day)
Lr 23
Lr 23
Rc 17
---------
84 which corresponded to a 164 on that particular test.

When I do timed full individual sections, I typicall score LG 23/23 or 24/24 and LR 24/25, 23/25, 23/26.

Yes, I bombed RC because, as I said, Im slow. I cant get to the last passage. So either, I need a miracle so that I can get to it or I need to rely on doing well for the other 75% of the test or I just bomb the test.

So, your assessment was correct.

Well, 3 tests. But yes, small sample. Still freaks me out.

Posted: **Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:20 pm**

Our situations are somewhat similar:

Initial diag, a year ago: 164 - bombed LG, okay on LR and RC
Same PT, a month ago: 159 - bombed LG worse, made stupid mistakes on LR, RC the same
New PT, a week ago: 166 - only did ~1.25 games, but went -3 on LR and -2 on RC

It seems like you can just have bad days or do something simple wrong and sabotage yourself... in my case, that was trying to go too fast. On that second test I finished every section (except LG) ~10 minutes early, but at the cost of many stupid mistakes. Slowing down and focusing returned me to a high score.

So, take a couple more PTs before you get too worried. Those two low ones might not reflect your true ability.

Posted: **Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:25 pm**

RZ5646 wrote:Our situations are somewhat similar:

Initial diag, a year ago: 164 - bombed LG, okay on LR and RC
Same PT, a month ago: 159 - bombed LG worse, made stupid mistakes on LR, RC the same
New PT, a week ago: 166 - only did ~1.25 games, but went -3 on LR and -2 on RC

It seems like you can just have bad days or do something simple wrong and sabotage yourself... in my case, that was trying to go too fast. On that second test I finished every section (except LG) ~10 minutes early, but at the cost of many stupid mistakes. Slowing down and focusing returned me to a high score.

So, take a couple more PTs before you get too worried. Those two low ones might not reflect your true ability.

Thank you, that's helpful

! I'm considering changing my test date to December. It would give me two months to try and increase my RC speed and also get a lot more full length tests under my belt. I put off full length testing for too long and now feel panicked to get a ton of tests under my belt which I believe is causing me to underperform because Im stressed. Thoughts?

Posted: **Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:42 pm**

InPursuitOfaPassion wrote:Thank you, that's helpful ! I'm considering changing my test date to December. It would give me two months to try and increase my RC speed and also get a lot more full length tests under my belt. I put off full length testing for too long and now feel panicked to get a ton of tests under my belt which I believe is causing me to underperform because Im stressed. Thoughts?

That sounds like a good idea. Don't take it until you're meeting your target score. And I think preptests are probably the best way to study, as long as you seriously review your mistakes. At first I was going to mostly do drilling and bookwork, but I realized how insanely boring that would be and switched my strategy to mostly full tests. Now I'm going to do at least one preptest every week until June, reading the books and doing some limited drilling to fill in whatever gaps show up (for me, mostly LG).

Unfortunately I don't really have any advice for RC except obvious things: questions are predictable, read for structure instead of details, etc. Some people recommend increasing your reading speed with an app like Spreeder or a speed reading course, but idk how effective that is.

Posted: **Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:00 am**

InPursuitOfaPassion wrote:
Thank you, that's helpful ! I'm considering changing my test date to December. It would give me two months to try and increase my RC speed and also get a lot more full length tests under my belt. I put off full length testing for too long and now feel panicked to get a ton of tests under my belt which I believe is causing me to underperform because Im stressed. Thoughts?

Might be a solid idea to delay. You're not where you want to be, so no sense in jeopardising your score. Frankly, you could probably score higher than 164-166 with some real effort put into RC.

I'm not there yet either, but it seems to me that if you hammer out a bunch of RC drills, you'll get better just by familiarising yourself with structure and pulling out details better in anticipation of the questions.

Posted: **Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:05 am**

RZ5646 wrote:
InPursuitOfaPassion wrote:Thank you, that's helpful ! I'm considering changing my test date to December. It would give me two months to try and increase my RC speed and also get a lot more full length tests under my belt. I put off full length testing for too long and now feel panicked to get a ton of tests under my belt which I believe is causing me to underperform because Im stressed. Thoughts?
That sounds like a good idea. Don't take it until you're meeting your target score. And I think preptests are probably the best way to study, as long as you seriously review your mistakes. At first I was going to mostly do drilling and bookwork, but I realized how insanely boring that would be and switched my strategy to mostly full tests. Now I'm going to do at least one preptest every week until June, reading the books and doing some limited drilling to fill in whatever gaps show up (for me, mostly LG).

Unfortunately I don't really have any advice for RC except obvious things: questions are predictable, read for structure instead of details, etc. Some people recommend increasing your reading speed with an app like Spreeder or a speed reading course, but idk how effective that is.

I agree. Ive been using PTs up until now, but not completely all sections within one study session like a test (so not a full length test, but using the individual sections as isolated timed practice). But Im realizing now that sitting full length tests is important because managing composure/maintaning low stress throughout the entire test requires practice- as soon as Im no longer calm, I start losing points. Also, assuming my score goes back up to 164 and beyond, the full tests will be more helpful for boosting the oh so helpful confidence since it's a better indication of performance on the actual test.

Thanks for the RC suggestions. I have to admit, I put RC practice off because I found it so boring. But these past couple weeks Ive started focusing on it and find Im able to become engaged with the material now (the boredom doesnt creep in). Im hoping that with more practice the speed with naturally build since I should start to recognize patterns in the question types which will help me zero in on the parts of passages that are important for answering the questions. Ive already noticed a slight improvement in my speed, but not enough to tackle the last passage fully. The best Ive managed is completing the first question of the last passage.

Anyways, thank you for the feedback! And best of luck with your prep!

Posted: **Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:07 am**

msp8 wrote:
InPursuitOfaPassion wrote:
Thank you, that's helpful ! I'm considering changing my test date to December. It would give me two months to try and increase my RC speed and also get a lot more full length tests under my belt. I put off full length testing for too long and now feel panicked to get a ton of tests under my belt which I believe is causing me to underperform because Im stressed. Thoughts?
Might be a solid idea to delay. You're not where you want to be, so no sense in jeopardising your score. Frankly, you could probably score higher than 164-166 with some real effort put into RC.

I'm not there yet either, but it seems to me that if you hammer out a bunch of RC drills, you'll get better just by familiarising yourself with structure and pulling out details better in anticipation of the questions.

Thanks for the feedback! I agree about focusing on RC. Plus, it would be nice to be even in ability per section in case of an off day. Where I stand now means I have zero buffers on a sub par day.

Good luck with your studies!

Posted: **Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:07 pm**

I don't know if this will help but I was in a similar position. Rarely could finish a full section of RC. So, I broke down my timing of how I approach a passage during my drilling phase.

Goes something like this:

Reading/minor notes for each paragraph/pausing after each paragraph/seeing stucture: 3 min - 3:30min
Refresh what I just read and think about the why this author is telling me this: 10 seconds
Each question (5-8 usually), takes about 0:30-1:00min on average. So, 4:30-6:00min

In total, I'll go like 9 - 10 min max, maybe 11. If I find that I've gone over 10, and there is say like 5 questions, something slowed me down when I'm reviewing. I've learned that going too slow and not hitting the last passage and at least attempting all the questions was mainly due to getting hung up in a problem or two in the first two passages which ate time hard. When really, I did have the right answer and should moved on and saved like 2 min. If I could have marked and moved on, I'd have that extra 4 minutes or so in addition to my 5 that I was starting with and boom, I'm good.

Being slow has a shit load of causes from too much marking up, to thinking about questions for too long, being wishy washy, not understanding what you read and continuing to push... and then hitting a question that relates back to what you didn't even really read (and then rereading the entire paragraph), to just rushing. Probably a host of other causes as well. It's within the drilling and slowly picking apart your mistakes. It's not about just being fast. In fact, I don't think I'm a fast reader. I have to reread harder concepts, but just be aware that timing perfection is not entirely dependent on your speed.

Right now, my average is like -4 on RC. I'll get an occasional -1/-2. I've had a host of 5's. Those 5's came from like 2 in the last passage or maybe 3, with a 1 in the second and 1 in the third. HTH

Posted: **Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:15 am**

unodostres wrote:I don't know if this will help but I was in a similar position. Rarely could finish a full section of RC. So, I broke down my timing of how I approach a passage during my drilling phase.

Goes something like this:

Reading/minor notes for each paragraph/pausing after each paragraph/seeing stucture: 3 min - 3:30min
Refresh what I just read and think about the why this author is telling me this: 10 seconds
Each question (5-8 usually), takes about 0:30-1:00min on average. So, 4:30-6:00min

In total, I'll go like 9 - 10 min max, maybe 11. If I find that I've gone over 10, and there is say like 5 questions, something slowed me down when I'm reviewing. I've learned that going too slow and not hitting the last passage and at least attempting all the questions was mainly due to getting hung up in a problem or two in the first two passages which ate time hard. When really, I did have the right answer and should moved on and saved like 2 min. If I could have marked and moved on, I'd have that extra 4 minutes or so in addition to my 5 that I was starting with and boom, I'm good.

Being slow has a shit load of causes from too much marking up, to thinking about questions for too long, being wishy washy, not understanding what you read and continuing to push... and then hitting a question that relates back to what you didn't even really read (and then rereading the entire paragraph), to just rushing. Probably a host of other causes as well. It's within the drilling and slowly picking apart your mistakes. It's not about just being fast. In fact, I don't think I'm a fast reader. I have to reread harder concepts, but just be aware that timing perfection is not entirely dependent on your speed.

Right now, my average is like -4 on RC. I'll get an occasional -1/-2. I've had a host of 5's. Those 5's came from like 2 in the last passage or maybe 3, with a 1 in the second and 1 in the third. HTH

Thanks for the tips! I think Im reading the passage too thoroughly because it takes my an average of 5 min. To read one before hitting the questions lol. Ive just read somewhere that one should read faster than thorough, but slower that sheer skimming. I think I understand that now- breezing through details and noting where they are in case I need them, but not getting bogged down by them from the get go.

Some of the newer LR questions are freaking me out because Im noticing they use trickier wording than older tests, but Im thinking a well rested and clear mind will really help that...plus, im aware of it now so its on my radar.

Posted: **Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:24 am**

Oops, I just reread the last reply and realized you said it takes you 4-6 min to read. Thats about where Im at too. So yeah, maybe Im getting bogged down by the questions...which is comforting because practice shohld help that. I really need sleep...im even missing things in forum posts lol.

And yeah, youre right, when I sais Im slow at RC I didnt mean reading necessarily, but that there is something about my approach that is slowing me down. Although, I was wondering if it had to do with reading speed.

Also, sorry for the typos, im using my phone...autocorrect etc.

Posted: **Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:54 pm**

InPursuitOfaPassion wrote:Oops, I just reread the last reply and realized you said it takes you 4-6 min to read. Thats about where Im at too. So yeah, maybe Im getting bogged down by the questions...which is comforting because practice shohld help that. I really need sleep...im even missing things in forum posts lol.

And yeah, youre right, when I sais Im slow at RC I didnt mean reading necessarily, but that there is something about my approach that is slowing me down. Although, I was wondering if it had to do with reading speed.

Also, sorry for the typos, im using my phone...autocorrect etc.

Ya, the questions... you might fumble with when going through them. I had trouble letting go. I mean, I'm to the point where if it's taking me more than 2 minutes on a question, I'm obviously on a hard one (assuming I'm not just dumb and didn't miss something), and I just move on.

Ya, the approach should become more on point with practice. It should always be the same thing. The only thing that changes is the topic for me. The structure, authors, points, critics, comparisons... I'm always looking for that so it's not like a math problem for me when I'm using a different formula. But if you're in the same ball park for reading, it might be your approach to the questions for why you're not getting a fair shot at all the passage questions. I've always been a solid believer in doing the work up front and the questions will reward that. Same goes for games and LR. So far, its been working as my PT's have averaged in the low 170's.

What types of questions have you been missing? I'm assuming you're tracking types of misses? Because for me, I don't have trouble with main point, structure, and just overall big picture. When it comes down to like strengthen and weaken, and more direct answer choices to a specific paragraph, I do get a little worried. But I just reread that paragraph and hit it again.

Posted: **Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:37 pm**

unodostres wrote:
InPursuitOfaPassion wrote:Oops, I just reread the last reply and realized you said it takes you 4-6 min to read. Thats about where Im at too. So yeah, maybe Im getting bogged down by the questions...which is comforting because practice shohld help that. I really need sleep...im even missing things in forum posts lol.

And yeah, youre right, when I sais Im slow at RC I didnt mean reading necessarily, but that there is something about my approach that is slowing me down. Although, I was wondering if it had to do with reading speed.

Also, sorry for the typos, im using my phone...autocorrect etc.
Ya, the questions... you might fumble with when going through them. I had trouble letting go. I mean, I'm to the point where if it's taking me more than 2 minutes on a question, I'm obviously on a hard one (assuming I'm not just dumb and didn't miss something), and I just move on.

Ya, the approach should become more on point with practice. It should always be the same thing. The only thing that changes is the topic for me. The structure, authors, points, critics, comparisons... I'm always looking for that so it's not like a math problem for me when I'm using a different formula. But if you're in the same ball park for reading, it might be your approach to the questions for why you're not getting a fair shot at all the passage questions. I've always been a solid believer in doing the work up front and the questions will reward that. Same goes for games and LR. So far, its been working as my PT's have averaged in the low 170's.

What types of questions have you been missing? I'm assuming you're tracking types of misses? Because for me, I don't have trouble with main point, structure, and just overall big picture. When it comes down to like strengthen and weaken, and more direct answer choices to a specific paragraph, I do get a little worried. But I just reread that paragraph and hit it again.

Thanks! That's helpful. I tend to miss inference and detail questions. I typically miss detail because I try to go off memory. I know better not to do that, but it seems to be a habit that I need to conciously work myself out of. I find a common problem for me, though, that rules across all mistakes in any section is slopiness... missing little details in wording etc.

Posted: **Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:12 pm**

Ok, so I drilled a few passages today and restricted myself to, on average, 35 sec. per question. I got 0-1 wrong per passage. But obviously its a super small sample. But, point being, I guess it is possible...it just feels so fast right now, but Im hoping practice will make me feel more comfortable with it.

Posted: **Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:21 pm**

InPursuitOfaPassion wrote:Ok, so I drilled a few passages today and restricted myself to, on average, 35 sec. per question. I got 0-1 wrong per passage. But obviously its a super small sample. But, point being, I guess it is possible...it just feels so fast right now, but Im hoping practice will make me feel more comfortable with it.

Congrats on the improvement! I'm unfortunately scoring only 17ish right on the RC section. How did you improve within a matter of days?

Posted: **Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:23 pm**

InPursuitOfaPassion wrote:Ok, so I drilled a few passages today and restricted myself to, on average, 35 sec. per question. I got 0-1 wrong per passage. But obviously its a super small sample. But, point being, I guess it is possible...it just feels so fast right now, but Im hoping practice will make me feel more comfortable with it.

Good job! That's the key. Small baby steps. 30-1min max maybe 2 max.

Posted: **Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:45 pm**

Nlee10, I think my issue may have been largely approach based and so all I needed was to alter my appraoch to see the improvement. More specifically, my accuracy hasnt changed (so my understanding hasnt changed), but my pacing has changed (my accuracy wasnt terrible before, but my pacing was causing me to forfeit an entire passage...which meant guessing on 5-7 questions). Before, I was allowing myself too much time to cover all of the answer choices etc. I suspect I did this out of laziness because going a little slower feels like a nice break (answering the questions in 30 seconds is pretty fast compared to LR where you can easily average 60 sec per answer and I dont know what I average for LG, but it never feels super rushed to me...I feel the pressure to forge ahead, but I dont feel rushed in that section).
The rate at which a person improves will depend on what their weakness is since rectifying different weaknesses will take different amounts of time. Reasoning errors, for example, may take longer. But if your weakness is just going slower because youre not pushing yourself to go faster (in some way), then that can be easily and quickly rectified. Keep in mind, though, Ive only been successful drilling a few passages like that. The real test is keeping that pace up while maintaining accuracy and adding that into a full length test. It's a long process as Im sure you know. Are you scoring 17 after attempting every question in the section or are you unable to get through all questions?

Posted: **Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:59 pm**

I want to add that a good analogy for the rate of improvement on the lsat is akin to the rate of improvement in performing the bench press. I dont know if youre overly familiar with weight training, but if a person is having difficulty improving their bench (meaning they cant seem to push more weight), there are a number of reasons beyond a lack of strength that may be causing the plateau. One possible reason may be that the lifter is not executing the movement properly and that by simply changing his or her form will be able to instantly lift more (I.e. the strength was there, but the initial approach was bad). If however, the lifter has reached a plateau because they have weak shoulders or triceps, for example, the overcoming the plateau will take longer as he or she works on strengthening those weaknesses.

It's all about identifying the weakness.

I just want to say, that I really appreciate the help here on TLS! I love seeing people who have similar goals helping each other

Posted: **Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:23 pm**

InPursuitOfaPassion wrote:I want to add that a good analogy for the rate of improvement on the lsat is akin to the rate of improvement in performing the bench press. I dont know if youre overly familiar with weight training, but if a person is having difficulty improving their bench (meaning they cant seem to push more weight), there are a number of reasons beyond a lack of strength that may be causing the plateau. One possible reason may be that the lifter is not executing the movement properly and that by simply changing his or her form will be able to instantly lift more (I.e. the strength was there, but the initial approach was bad). If however, the lifter has reached a plateau because they have weak shoulders or triceps, for example, the overcoming the plateau will take longer as he or she works on strengthening those weaknesses.

It's all about identifying the weakness.

I just want to say, that I really appreciate the help here on TLS! I love seeing people who have similar goals helping each other

Thanks! I actually get the reference! Amateur powerlifter here. I never really looked at my lsat performance that way. I realized that a lot of my errors in RC is due to my approach. To try and make the time limit, I end up speeding through the passages to get to the questions and specifically the answer choices(which I know are time traps). Upon review, I get nearly all the questions right as long as I understand the passage structure.

Posted: **Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:22 pm**

nlee10 wrote:
InPursuitOfaPassion wrote:I want to add that a good analogy for the rate of improvement on the lsat is akin to the rate of improvement in performing the bench press. I dont know if youre overly familiar with weight training, but if a person is having difficulty improving their bench (meaning they cant seem to push more weight), there are a number of reasons beyond a lack of strength that may be causing the plateau. One possible reason may be that the lifter is not executing the movement properly and that by simply changing his or her form will be able to instantly lift more (I.e. the strength was there, but the initial approach was bad). If however, the lifter has reached a plateau because they have weak shoulders or triceps, for example, the overcoming the plateau will take longer as he or she works on strengthening those weaknesses.

It's all about identifying the weakness.

I just want to say, that I really appreciate the help here on TLS! I love seeing people who have similar goals helping each other
Thanks! I actually get the reference! Amateur powerlifter here. I never really looked at my lsat performance that way. I realized that a lot of my errors in RC is due to my approach. To try and make the time limit, I end up speeding through the passages to get to the questions and specifically the answer choices(which I know are time traps). Upon review, I get nearly all the questions right as long as I understand the passage structure.

No way! Thats awesome! I actually compete in Figure, but started training with a Power Lifter 2 years ago (the training was conducive to my goals in Figure) and developed a love for strength training. I have a twisted pelvic girdle that Im currently trying to sort out, but if I can fix it, I hope to do my first meet this year! So its super cool to run into a strength addict on here.

Yeah, sounds like you may benefit from taking more time on the passage and less on the questions- same idea behind the approach to logic games. Get a good handle on the info and you can whizz through the questions! Good luck

Top Law Schools

what the?! Forum

what the?!

Re: what the?!

Re: what the?!

Re: what the?!

Re: what the?!

Re: what the?!

Re: what the?!

Re: what the?!

Re: what the?!

Re: what the?!

Re: what the?!

Re: what the?!

Re: what the?!

Re: what the?!

Re: what the?!

Re: what the?!

Re: what the?!

Re: what the?!

Re: what the?!

Re: what the?!

Re: what the?!