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Been studying for about 3 months. My scores seem to be ranging in the high 150s (mainly) and low 160s. I don't know what exactly the issue is. Doesn't seem to be a real trend with question types although RC is my worst section (but improving).

With untimed tests, my score is in the 170s so yes, timing is partly the issue but not all of it.

So to my question: Do you think kinda starting from the beginning (especially with LR) in terms of learning the types again would help me? I guess kinda taking a step back to take a few steps forward kinda thing?

My typical section breakdown goes something like
LR:-4 to -7
RC:-5 to -9
LG:-2 to -6

For reference, untimed, my LR and LG scores generally are -2 per section (at very most) while RC id still -5 untimed.

Has anyone started again mid-prep because they felt like something wasn't clicking? Did it help?

I feel your pain. I feel like I'm in that boat for LG. Anyone care to chime in?

You shouldn't really miss any on RC untimed because the answers can be found in the passages.

What are the question types that give you problems in LR?

What has that three months of studying looked like?

I think you should take a step back from timing at the very least.

The entire challenge of the LSAT in general is in the timing. As madrileno mentioned, you should be getting perfect RC untimed. Until you can get to that point I'd suggest you stay away from timed, which is wasting passages and likely not gonna give you the improvement you desire. At the very least, if you continue to do timed, before you even look at the answers to an untimed review to reread the passage, double check and change any answers that you see are wrong now that you aren't under time pressure (use as much time as you need,hours per passage if that's what it takes) . Same goes for LR. Perfect section before you go timed is a must if you want to score 170+.

Also, for Logic Games, if you're getting 2-6 wrong it's the same story, though I'd suggest for them you go back and read whatever guide you used, and then practice LG both untimed and timed (don't necessarily limit yourselvf yet, just count how long it takes so you can keep track of improvements). LG is one that should definitely be perfect untimed before you go further with it.

el madrileno wrote:You shouldn't really miss any on RC untimed because the answers can be found in the passages.

What are the question types that give you problems in LR?

You're assuming that RC questions are just asking you to regurgitate what was in the passage. That's not the case for most.

For RC, the wording of the answer choices is what makes the questions so hard. So, no, most people aren't going to get 100% from untimed RC.

Though OP- your issues very clearly are timing related. I'm guessing you're trying to get to every question, and you're rushing a ton of them to do so (and consequently making a bunch of "stupid mistakes' which are really just predictable/understandable mistakes when you rush.

Also, you should begin working on prepping more challenging questions. For LR- focus on studying the answer choices. Make sure that for every question you review, you're able to VERY clearly explain precisely what was wrong with each wrong answer (not just what was right about the right one)

For games- check to see where you're missing questions. Is it a few in each game, or are you skipping an entire game because you run out of time?

Same goes for RC. And also, figure out how much time you're spending on the passage and on the questions. (You should NEVER spend more than 3-4 minutes on a passage, and the closer to 2 the better)

Here're some timing resources you might find helpful (ignore the horrendous formatting):

RC: https://cloud.box.com/s/1kcm44eli9fczsnpizj3
LG: https://cloud.box.com/s/xytz1hgyrqw3e2kllgev
LR: https://cloud.box.com/s/ku1i5qyrchwmnptxylar

General Timing Exercise: https://cloud.box.com/s/rmde3ymihmd05xgldb0j (This one is often a huge eye-opener for people. Pay close attention to what you learn about yourself from Steps 5 and 6)

I wouldn't say you need to start from scratch but perhaps you need to go back and review. I can't offer much for reading comp because I need to figure out what my issue is there, but with the other sections you should definitely improve. If you can do -2 untimed then your issue might be the fact that you don't have the accuracy yet to be working on your speed. See what questions you are missing. Are they specific types? Are they the harder ones? The ones you missed, do you remember how you came to that answer? Did you go through the process of understanding the stimulus and how to eliminate bad answers or did you just kind of try to solve ti intuitively? With the games are you not diagramming properly or enough? There should be patterns you can find out to help you. Perhaps you need to take a step back and drill with questions or just sections before you do tests.

Thanks for all the feedback everyone.

el madrileno wrote:You shouldn't really miss any on RC untimed because the answers can be found in the passages.

What are the question types that give you problems in LR?

When I take untimed tests, I still try to maintain an internal clock. The best way I can describe it is that while I don't have a timer present, I still try not to take unrealistic amounts of time on questions. I could very well start at the top of the passage for every question and take literally as much time as necessary ....same goes for LG and LR, but I don't think that helps. I think this way I have a general, realistic sense of where my competency actually is. So yeah, that's why I don't get everything right on the whole test untimed.

and there's no real trend. I tend to miss at least 1 assumption/flaw but those questions also appear much more frequently on the test. I'd say I'm weak and weaken Qs but same logic, I don't miss them often but they don't appear that often either.

malleus discentium wrote:What has that three months of studying looked like?

Gone through the LR and LG Bible and the LSAT Trainer. Didn't do that this whole three months. I got familiar with the test last summer and did the LR Bible and part of the LG Bible. Did the Trainer this summer and have drilled a bit as well (nowhere near enough, tho).

js1663 wrote: Also, for Logic Games, if you're getting 2-6 wrong it's the same story, though I'd suggest for them you go back and read whatever guide you used, and then practice LG both untimed and timed (don't necessarily limit yourselvf yet, just count how long it takes so you can keep track of improvements). LG is one that should definitely be perfect untimed before you go further with it.

I've gone perfect LG before, but not consistency enough. With LG, one issue I have is things not "clicking." That is, of the my diagrams are solid (I rarely have issues with diagramming) but I'd hit, say, the last 2 out of 7 questions and hit a brick wall. Untimed, fine, but timed, I begin to think about time and whether or not they should be skipped (or if I should come back to them ..etc) Generally not a fan of coming back to LG questions tho.

KDLMaj,

Hey, thanks for the links. I'll definitely check those out.

I'm also convinced they're most timing related. and

Though OP- your issues very clearly are timing related. I'm guessing you're trying to get to every question, and you're rushing a ton of them to do so (and consequently making a bunch of "stupid mistakes' which are really just predictable/understandable mistakes when you rush.

exactly this! I'm not a fast reader. I used to not be able to finish LR sections but I've since been better and now issues with not finishing come only in RC but I've also improved in that department as well.

For games, I never don't get to or finish a game. That is, I never skip a whole entire game. but the questions I miss are here and there. -1 per game typa thing.

Lying Lawyer wrote:I wouldn't say you need to start from scratch but perhaps you need to go back and review.

yeahhh, i think that's what I'm leaning towards.I guess not back to the drawing board but rework on my foundation a bit.

Hope the links help.

Try an experiment. Next test, skip two questions in every section. And I don't mean after spending a minute or two in them. Skip within 10 seconds max. See what happens.

WordPass wrote:Been studying for about 3 months. My scores seem to be ranging in the high 150s (mainly) and low 160s. I don't know what exactly the issue is. Doesn't seem to be a real trend with question types although RC is my worst section (but improving).

With untimed tests, my score is in the 170s so yes, timing is partly the issue but not all of it.

So to my question: Do you think kinda starting from the beginning (especially with LR) in terms of learning the types again would help me? I guess kinda taking a step back to take a few steps forward kinda thing?

My typical section breakdown goes something like
LR:-4 to -7
RC:-5 to -9
LG:-2 to -6

For reference, untimed, my LR and LG scores generally are -2 per section (at very most) while RC id still -5 untimed.

Has anyone started again mid-prep because they felt like something wasn't clicking? Did it help?

Ok, you've hit a very common high 150s/low160s plateau after learning all the phase 1 basics and having done some phase 2 drilling along with timed practice. You're in a very common place people find themselves in after learning all the foundational concepts/methods/LSAT knowledge-info/etc. from books/videos/a class and then heading into mainly doing full timed PTs mode without spending enough time doing proper phase 2 drilling with deep review work before shifting fully into doing lots o timed PTs phase 3 mode.

The most important thing for you to do now is focus on deep review of your PTs to identify in detail all your mistakes, weaknesses, careless errors, misunderstandings, things you struggled with, etc. so you can then use that information to figure out what types of additional phase 2 type drilling, practice and review you need to do to fix your issues that are costing you points.

Deep thorough review and focused drilling/review to fix weakness/types of mistakes you identify from deep review is the key for improving your skill level/score range to break through your current plateau and achieve a solid score range increase.

I described it in detail in another thread last week where the OP was is in a similar situation so it applies to your situation too.

Here's the link to the thread if you want to read it in full context, otherwise my post is quoted below.
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 7#p7927667

Jeffort wrote:

woodselle wrote: Typically, I can review the question and understand the reasoning behind the correct answer. I'm missing questions of all types, but often they are some of the last questions in the section.

Now that I'm 2 months out from my retake, is it worth getting another book (LSAT trainer, or another?) to help me study, or should I just focus on taking PTs and drilling as many LR questions as possible?

In addition to the other suggestions people made (Mikes book is good), I think the key to breaking through your plateau is doing more, better and deeper review, not in mainly focusing on drilling lots o questions and doing many timed PTs. Quality over quantity is the key, there is much to be learned from every question you struggle with. Drilling lots of questions/taking many timed PTs without deeply reviewing them is a good way to waste materials and waste time. I call it the 'churn and burn' routine.

Along with changing/improving/refining your methods/approach if you get Mikes book, you also need to do much deeper more comprehensive review of each question you attempt, not just ones you get wrong. Making sure you understand the reasoning behind the CR for each question and why what you picked is wrong after the fact is just step one/the tip of the iceberg for good review that's likely to actually help improve your skills and performance.

Along with making sure you understand the logic of the question and reasoning behind the CR and why the other four are logically incorrect, you need to carefully and thoroughly review your own actual thought and decision making process that actually happened when you attempted the question that lead you to selecting an incorrect answer and thinking that the CR was not correct/why you didn't pick it. A good starting point is figuring out all the reasons you actually thought/used/that were the basis of you thinking the incorrect answer you selected was correct (all the reasons you actually thought about and used as part of your decision making process that caused you the select it) and all the reasons you thought the CR was wrong/reasons you didn't select it. Figure that stuff out and backtrack/trace back your entire approach/thought process that lead you to believing those things, then compare that to how you could have approached the question differently/better that would/could have lead you to correctly recognizing the CR as correct and the trap as incorrect.

In short, the most important thing you need to do to improve your skills/score range/accuracy to break past your current barrier is deep review of your own actual thought and decision making processes that you actually apply when you attack questions. It's pretty much mentally doing a slow motion instant 'replay' of what you actually did when you attacked the question like sports teams do with videos of games/game plays to evaluate who f'd up the play and how. You need to take a careful introspective look at what your brain does/what actually 'happened' when you did each question to figure out mistakes/weaknesses in your methods or whatever types of mistakes you're making/issues that you need to fix.

Deep review of that type is the key since it gives you a roadmap of exactly what types of mistakes you're making/what specific weaknesses/issues you have so you have actionable information to work with by doing more drilling and review focused on fixing whatever issues you figure out from deep review. Make sense?

Knowing and understanding the logic of LSAT questions is just one part of getting good at the test, training yourself to have good habits and consistent methods and reactions that work well for efficiency and accuracy under timed conditions is the other important part. Sounds like you need work on the second part, improving your hands on application under timed conditions of the methods and techniques you've learned. Deep thorough self-evaluation type review of this nature is very time consuming, tedious, and not exactly happy times since your main focus is on figuring out all the different ways you sucked and f'd up that day, so many people don't do it, which is part of the reason many people get stuck at a plateau around low 160s range and/or ~minus 5-7 per LR section after lots o prep.

Deep review, learning from your mistakes and changing your habits based on things you learn in review is where all the magic happens to move your score range up once you've already learned all the basics. Quantity of drilling doesn't matter if you don't review properly and learn stuff from every question you struggle with. Quality over quantity, so don't focus on/prioritize quantity of drilling/timed PTs, instead focus on quality with deep thorough review so that you are constantly learning and making modifications/fine tuning your habits/methods/approach/reactions/etc. based on identifiable weaknesses/issues with your methods/habits that are costing you points.

KDLMaj wrote:Hope the links help.

Try an experiment. Next test, skip two questions in every section. And I don't mean after spending a minute or two in them. Skip within 10 seconds max. See what happens.

Ill definitely try that out. Thanks a lot!

Jeffort,

Thanks for the response. Exactly how would you suggest I start this deep review? In front of me right now, I have a bunch of printed out paper and in it, a healthy mixed of completed LR, LG RC sections, drilling etc, some PTs and that kinda stuff. It almost seems all over the place.

Should I begin by taking a preptest (untimed), blind reviewing, then deeply reviewing each question (right or wrong?), rinse then repeat? Would using my drilling material (I guess drilling then deep reviewing per question per type) be a better option?

I know it's probably up to me, but any advice would be appreciated.

WordPass wrote:
Jeffort,

Thanks for the response. Exactly how would you suggest I start this deep review? In front of me right now, I have a bunch of printed out paper and in it, a healthy mixed of completed LR, LG RC sections, drilling etc, some PTs and that kinda stuff. It almost seems all over the place.

Should I begin by taking a preptest (untimed), blind reviewing, then deeply reviewing each question (right or wrong?), rinse then repeat? Would using my drilling material (I guess drilling then deep reviewing per question per type) be a better option?

I know it's probably up to me, but any advice would be appreciated.

Since quality review needs to be done shortly after you attempted the questions, you can just set aside your stack of completed sections. If/when you re-drill or re-take those sections you can review your performance on them then.

That said, going forward you should do deep thorough review of all questions you attempt, whether when drilling or after doing timed sections/PTs.

Since you've already learned the basics, the most beneficial type of review involves putting your actual hands on (or brains on?) application of your LSAT knowledge (techniques, step by step methods, etc. you learned) to questions you attempt under a microscope to carefully examine how your brain actually behaved, hence the sports 'slow motion instant replay' analogy. This means basically reviewing exactly what went through your head, exactly what you did, thought, did next, etc. step by step from beginning of starting the question all the way through to when you made your final answer selection so that you examine what actually 'HAPPENED'/you & your brain actually did moment by moment, step by step, thought by thought, decision by decision, etc. when you attacked it so you can identify EVERY mistake/misstep/issue (no matter how serious or trivial) you make that needs to be addressed so you don't repeat it.

There are a ton of different types of mistakes/weaknesses that cause people to get questions wrong. Your job with deep review is to figure out which types of mistakes you are currently making and all the weaknesses/vulnerabilities you currently have so you can figure out which direction to go in with further skills building focused drilling + review. Mistakes can involve skipping steps/being inconsistent with the approach/methods you apply to questions due to various factors including time pressure, which are basically 'application' issues, meaning mistakes in applying the steps you already know you're supposed to do, can involve foundational issues regarding understanding of certain logical concepts, can be reading based/misinterpreting stuff, and many other things. Everyone has their own sets of particular mistakes they make frequently and areas of weakness/vulnerability, so you need to figure out/diagnose what yours currently are to figure out what to work on fixing/improving.

When you review, you should keep an 'error log' where you write down every single mistake you made that contributed to missing a question or that made you unnecessarily struggle with a question longer than it should have taken. Don't minimize mistakes or blow off ones that seem like trivial careless mistakes! That's the worst thing to do! You should be your own worst enemy/critic and figure out every mistake you made that contributed to missing a question since there is always more than one mistake you made that lead to getting a question wrong. Your goal is to identify and write down every single thought, reason, factor, etc. that contributed to you getting a question wrong. If you make a lot of seemingly careless/dumb mistakes, instead of minimizing them and just thinking "Doh! I won't do that again, that was dumb!" or "it was just timing, if I had only a little more time I'd have figured out to pick my other contender instead of the trap", you need to figure out what is wrong/missing in your methods/processes that makes you vulnerable to making seemingly 'stupid' mistakes when under timed conditions. Blaming missed questions simply on timing won't help you improve. It's not simply the limited time/timing that caused you to miss questions you fully attempted, it's what you did and didn't do with that limited time!

Blind review when done properly after taking a timed PT is really helpful for differentiating process based 'careless' mistakes from conceptual/understanding weaknesses based missed questions.

Do you have a solid set of step by step approaches/processes/methods you try to follow/consistently apply to the different section and individual question types or does it end up being kinda like just flying semi-unguided by the seat of your pants reading and moving really fast/rushing through questions relying a lot on raw gut intuition in the sections when you do a timed PT/section?

First thing is figuring out how solid (or lacking) your approach, methods, and habits are for everything.

Given what you've described about your situation, I'd say do one more timed PT and then thoroughly review your actual thought processes/reasoning and decision making processes you applied in detail with every question even ones you got correct to get a big full evaluation of your current entire LSAT approach/skillset in action to use as a roadmap/list of your current weaknesses you should work on/issues to fix. After that you'll want to be doing a bunch more focused drilling with deep review before taking another timed PT. You should always make sure you learn something from all your mistakes per PT and do stuff to change/improve your habits, make adjustments and practice that stuff with drilling+review before taking another PT. Otherwise, if you just keep taking more PTs without reviewing the previous one deeply and learning from your performance mistakes, you'll just be wasting materials doing the 'churn and burn' taking more timed PTs to hit a schedule/quantity goal or whatever.

Deep thorough review like this should take at least three times the amount of time it takes to take the PT timed. It really is spending a lot of self introspection time reviewing exactly what went through your brain, what you thought, how you reacted, what you didn't do, etc. second by second when you attempted each question that you need to be examining carefully so that you can change/improve your habits, reactions, processes, etc. for accuracy and efficiency purposes.

Since you're already performing at a relatively high level timed (160 = 80th %), doing a full PT untimed would be a waste. You need to focus on getting better at applying your LSAT knowledge, proper methods and techniques to questions when working at a brisk pace similar to test conditions, not spending time getting used to having forever to make up your mind to be 100% accurate since that would build habits that won't work on test day.

When you drill, you should do deep thorough review of each question right after it or every 5 or 10 you do. When you attempt each question when drilling, try to do the question as quickly as you can but without a time cap that would tempt you to skip steps to save time. Just do each one at a brisk pace similar to timed conditions, but without a time cap so your focus is on going through all the proper steps properly for accuracy/confidence in your answer selection, not on meeting/beating a time deadline.

If you haven't done much focused drilling by question type, for sure start doing that ASAP. Focused drilling by type is really important to learn all the common patterns within each different question type and to sharpen your specific approach/method/processes for each different question type. Familiarity with the common patterns within each question type significantly increases speed and accuracy since the LSAT is a standardized test with the same types of stuff tested in the same ways with the same types of tempting incorrect trap answers test after test.

Hope this is clear. Let me know if this helps and/or any more questions.

PS: I've written many long detailed posts about various detailed aspects of drilling and reviewing properly, especially in the last few months. Just click on my profile button, then the 'search user's posts' button and you'll find lots of detailed advice I've posted that is relevant to your current LSAT prep 'status' since you're in a prep stage many people get stuck in and frequently ask about here on TLS.

Crystal clear. Thanks! I'll definitely be doing all of that.