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Hey guys, MSS questions are giving me fits.

Basically, I feel like I've got no process.

This is how a typical MSS goes for me (in the level 3-4 range)

I'll read the stimulus, trying to understand the whole thing. Okay great, I understand what's being said - thats always good. On to the answer choices:

Then I get stuck between like 2 or even 3 of the answer choices, and often find myself going back to the stimulus and thinking hmm.. was that even supported from the stimulus? I can't remember! Then if I get it right, it probably took me way too long.

I just feel like I'm running in there blind. I have a specific process I go through with flaw/str/wea, assumptions ,etc.

MSS is a different story for some reason though. I guess to some extent MBT too. I think it has something to do with the fact we aren't reading the stimulus with a critical eye, and sometimes there isn't really being an argument made. Thats my speculation anyway. Would appreciate help from people good at these.

I treat MSS (most strongly supported) and MBT (must be true) as essentially the same question type. On most MSS questions the correct answer will have to be true, although there are some that require a warranted assumption (an assumption that any reasonable person would make). The reason that the LSAT has favored to MSS language recently instead of MBT language is that it is harder to challenge a MSS question. So you don't really need to have a distinction between these two types of questions. From here on out, I'll just refer to them collectively as MBT.

There are usually 2 reasons why people miss MBT questions. The first is specific to the MSS language. Many times people see the word "support" and mistake it for a strengthen question which almost always leads to the incorrect answer choice. The other is that they are a little shaky with conditional reasoning, a commonly tested concept on MBT questions.

Here's a few things that I think about when I do MBT (they usually aren't arguments so it's not too in depth):

How strong was the language that they used in the Stim compared to the answer choice you're considering. There are tons of examples of the test writers making very attractive answer choices that are incorrect because they are a little too strong for what was originally stated. This is the number one way that I eliminate incorrect answer choices on MBT.

I also check to see if something new is mentioned in an answer choice. If it wasn't talked about in the Stim then it's probably not supported (there are some examples of new terms/ideas being fully supported so don't just auto eliminate with this method).

Since there are a lot of conditionals tested in MBT questions, I always keep an eye out for negations and/or reversals in the answer choices to avoid them if the Stim is conditional.

Hope this helps!

Jon McCarty wrote:I treat MSS (most strongly supported) and MBT (must be true) as essentially the same question type. On most MSS questions the correct answer will have to be true, although there are some that require a warranted assumption (an assumption that any reasonable person would make). The reason that the LSAT has favored to MSS language recently instead of MBT language is that it is harder to challenge a MSS question. So you don't really need to have a distinction between these two types of questions. From here on out, I'll just refer to them collectively as MBT.

There are usually 2 reasons why people miss MBT questions. The first is specific to the MSS language. Many times people see the word "support" and mistake it for a strengthen question which almost always leads to the incorrect answer choice. The other is that they are a little shaky with conditional reasoning, a commonly tested concept on MBT questions.

Here's a few things that I think about when I do MBT (they usually aren't arguments so it's not too in depth):

How strong was the language that they used in the Stim compared to the answer choice you're considering. There are tons of examples of the test writers making very attractive answer choices that are incorrect because they are a little too strong for what was originally stated. This is the number one way that I eliminate incorrect answer choices on MBT.

I also check to see if something new is mentioned in an answer choice. If it wasn't talked about in the Stim then it's probably not supported (there are some examples of new terms/ideas being fully supported so don't just auto eliminate with this method).

Since there are a lot of conditionals tested in MBT questions, I always keep an eye out for negations and/or reversals in the answer choices to avoid them if the Stim is conditional.

Hope this helps!

This was prob the best advice I have ever read in my life. I'm currently going ~-10 combined, with around 2-3 of those being MSS questions. I dont think i've realized that i've been treating them as strengthen types.

Thank you so much.

gnomgnomuch wrote:

Jon McCarty wrote:I treat MSS (most strongly supported) and MBT (must be true) as essentially the same question type. On most MSS questions the correct answer will have to be true, although there are some that require a warranted assumption (an assumption that any reasonable person would make). The reason that the LSAT has favored to MSS language recently instead of MBT language is that it is harder to challenge a MSS question. So you don't really need to have a distinction between these two types of questions. From here on out, I'll just refer to them collectively as MBT.

There are usually 2 reasons why people miss MBT questions. The first is specific to the MSS language. Many times people see the word "support" and mistake it for a strengthen question which almost always leads to the incorrect answer choice. The other is that they are a little shaky with conditional reasoning, a commonly tested concept on MBT questions.

Here's a few things that I think about when I do MBT (they usually aren't arguments so it's not too in depth):

How strong was the language that they used in the Stim compared to the answer choice you're considering. There are tons of examples of the test writers making very attractive answer choices that are incorrect because they are a little too strong for what was originally stated. This is the number one way that I eliminate incorrect answer choices on MBT.

I also check to see if something new is mentioned in an answer choice. If it wasn't talked about in the Stim then it's probably not supported (there are some examples of new terms/ideas being fully supported so don't just auto eliminate with this method).

Since there are a lot of conditionals tested in MBT questions, I always keep an eye out for negations and/or reversals in the answer choices to avoid them if the Stim is conditional.

Hope this helps!

This was prob the best advice I have ever read in my life. I'm currently going ~-10 combined, with around 2-3 of those being MSS questions. I dont think i've realized that i've been treating them as strengthen types.

Thank you so much.

Ha! Thats good to hear then! We're in similar boats for LR then. Thanks for the advice JM, appreciate it, trying to get a few perspectives on attacking this question type, I've gotten some great advice pretty quickly.

Thanks.

^^ holy crap, that MSS advice is amazing.

cavalier2015 wrote:^^ holy crap, that MSS advice is amazing.

gnomgnomuch wrote:This was prob the best advice I have ever read in my life. I'm currently going ~-10 combined, with around 2-3 of those being MSS questions. I dont think i've realized that i've been treating them as strengthen types.

Thank you so much.

I'm glad this helped, if you need anything else let me know!

great advice, man Jon and KDL have been killing it lately. They have are truly a god send.

Is there some reference that someone can point me to that deals with quantifies in the stimulus? So for example when questions say most As are Bs, but few Bs are Cs. Even when untimed I have trouble with these when presented in the stimulus. And do I still look for quantifiers to match up from the stimulus to answer choices?

cavalier2015 wrote:Is there some reference that someone can point me to that deals with quantifies in the stimulus? So for example when questions say most As are Bs, but few Bs are Cs. Even when untimed I have trouble with these when presented in the stimulus. And do I still look for quantifiers to match up from the stimulus to answer choices?

Those are my old some/most notes
https://cloud.box.com/s/dslsoo22yjrcagbu72by

Pasted Below


Basics:

Some means “at least one” on the LSAT. That’s what *must be true*. So if I have 10 apples, and I say some of them are red, then at least one of them is an apple for certain. That would be a valid inference.

But some *can* also include “all”. If I have 10 apples, and I say some of them are red, then all of them could be red. If every apple I have is red, then it’s still a true statement to say some of them are red. (because some of them are- or else how could I have red apples at all?). It’s just also true that ALL of them are red.

Most means “50%+1” on the LSAT. That’s what *must be true*. So if I have 10 apples, and I say most of them are red, then at least 6 of them are red. That would be a valid inference.

But most *can* also include “all”. If I have 10 apples, and I say most of them are red, then all of them could be red. If every apple I have is red, then it’s still a true statement to say that most of them are red. (Because most of them ARE red) It’s just also true that ALL of them are red.

So in conclusion: MUST BE TRUE COULD BE TRUE

Some “at least one” At least 1 100%

Most “50%+1” 50%+1 100%

Translating:

On the LSAT, quantities are always: None, Some, Most, or All. When dealing with Inference questions in particular, this is a vital concept that requires some translation work.

Remember to always circle degree/amount words when dealing with Inference Question stims. And translate quantities into: None, some, most, or all.

Below is an incomplete list of “translations” for some and most.

Some: A few, many, often, occasionally, rarely, much of, certain circumstances, certain types/kinds/etc, very few, a significant number,

Most: a majority of the time, more often than not, almost all, almost any, usually, generally,

Combining/Overlap:

The LSAT loves to test overlap between two groups when it comes to some/most. There *can* always be some overlap, but you don’t always *have* to have overlap.

Here are the possible scenarios and the overlap:
-------------------------------------------

Most Apples are Red
+
Most Apples are Fancy
=
Must be True: Some Apples are Red AND Fancy
(Could be True: All apples are red AND fancy)
-------------------------------------
Some Apples are Red
+
Most Apples are Fancy
=
Must be True: Nothing. No definite overlap has to happen.
(Could be True: Some Apples are Red AND Fancy)
------------------------------------
Some Apples are Red
+
Some Apples are Fancy
=
Must Be True: Nothing. No definite overlap has to happen.
(Could be True: Some Apples are Red AND Fancy)

Treating MBT and MSS questions the same way might run you into trouble on tough MSS questions. You can't use mnemonics like strength of quantifiers to help you, as MSS questions sometimes go beyond the stimulus in that regard.

I agree that you should read the stimulus the same way for both of them (i.e., don't read with a critical eye). But while you can often break down complicated MBT stimuli using conditional logic, that usually won't be the case for MSS questions. As a result, expect it to take longer to eliminate incorrect choices for tough MSS questions.

brooklynboy wrote:Treating MBT and MSS questions the same way might run you into trouble on tough MSS questions. You can't use mnemonics like strength of quantifiers to help you, as MSS questions sometimes go beyond the stimulus in that regard.

I agree that you should read the stimulus the same way for both of them (i.e., don't read with a critical eye). But while you can often break down complicated MBT stimuli using conditional logic, that usually won't be the case for MSS questions. As a result, expect it to take longer to eliminate incorrect choices for tough MSS questions.

Yeah - I know exactly what you mean brooklyn. I'll keep the distinction in mind - I get both the points that were made though. Appreciate the discussion guys.