Top Law Schools

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaeFnxSfSC4

enjoy! Talks about talent vs hardwork and how good of an indicator they are for success.

It's like passage three of PT 71

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TheodoreKGB wrote:Thanks for posting that! I think the video has great value even beyond the LSAT.

Yup. It applies to all of life.

Just waiting for the natural 170+ scorers to come in and say that studying too hard for the lsat is not fair.

Clyde Frog wrote:Just waiting for the natural 170+ scorers to come in and say that studying too hard for the lsat is not fair.

they should be studying to shoot for 175+

After watching the video, I'm intrigued to find out whether, in the long run, people who are exceptionally gritty but not the top in terms of natural talent can outperform those who are fairly gritty but are exceptionally talented.

For the sake of argument, let's say person A has a grittiness of 10/10 but natural talent of 8/10, compare him to person B who have a grittiness of 8/10 but natural talent of 10/10. Who will outperform who in the grand scheme of things, holding all other factors constant?

My brain tells me that person B has the advantage, since the person B has more potential than person A given higher natural abilities, and assuming that one can improve his grittiness. My heart tells me it's person A, because I'm not exceptionally talented.

I tend to think the person with more talent , but not really sure why I think this. anyone else want to weigh in?

h3jk5h wrote:After watching the video, I'm intrigued to find out whether, in the long run, people who are exceptionally gritty but not the top in terms of natural talent can outperform those who are fairly gritty but are exceptionally talented.

For the sake of argument, let's say person A has a grittiness of 10/10 but natural talent of 8/10, compare him to person B who have a grittiness of 8/10 but natural talent of 10/10. Who will outperform who in the grand scheme of things, holding all other factors constant?

My brain tells me that person B has the advantage, since the person B has more potential than person A given higher natural abilities, and assuming that one can improve his grittiness. My heart tells me it's person A, because I'm not exceptionally talented.

So you're really comparing a G10/T8 against a G9-10/T10? Of course the latter would win then.

I don't think you could ever even approach an exact answer to the question though, since there aren't any solid definitions or measurements of talent, grit, or success.

All you can conclude is that we mortals need both to succeed, so we must work as hard as we can. Some people (like this presenter apparently) just have opportunities fall into their laps (aside: at the top levels of achievement, luck and connections are probably just as important as grit or talent), but the rest of us have to struggle to succeed, even if we are somewhat talented.

Personally I think I have more talent than grit (I know, most TLSers probably say that about themselves), and it frustrates me to no end. I'm doing well I guess, but I still waste many hours every day and I'm worried that I'm only accomplishing a tiny fraction of what I would if I were motivated, disciplined, focused, and organized. That old "you only use 10% of your brain" saying is true, if not neurologically then at least in spirit.

Look up the people with the highest IQs ever recorded and notice that most of them didn't amount to shit although some had the capability to learn an entire language in only a few days. Hard work > talent.

I go with grit. Talent doesn't really learn to work for it, doesn't need to work for it, and becomes complacent about doing well without having to bust her ass. Grit has to fight for it every step of the way, and doesn't give up the fight just for having achieved his goals

wingding wrote:I go with grit. Talent doesn't really learn to work for it, doesn't need to work for it, and becomes complacent about doing well without having to bust her ass. Grit has to fight for it every step of the way, and doesn't give up the fight just for having achieved his goals

Yeah I agree, but if people have comparable grit and talent levels, but one person has a bit more grit and the other person has a bit more talent, for some reason I want to say the person with more talent wins out.. but I'm not sure if thats just because the amount of value we place on talent in society

Clyde Frog wrote:Just waiting for the natural 170+ scorers to come in and say that studying too hard for the lsat is not fair.

My favorite is: "Arguments against LSAC's new disability policy are not valid because the people making them are people who study alot for the LSAT".

^^^^^
Who said that? The arguments aren't valid because civil rights and law. The people arguing against the changes look like whiners. Who said disabled people don't study hard? Or don't have tons of natural talent?

LSACs previous policies were illegal. You got that point I'm sure.

flash21 wrote:

wingding wrote:I go with grit. Talent doesn't really learn to work for it, doesn't need to work for it, and becomes complacent about doing well without having to bust her ass. Grit has to fight for it every step of the way, and doesn't give up the fight just for having achieved his goals

Yeah I agree, but if people have comparable grit and talent levels, but one person has a bit more grit and the other person has a bit more talent, for some reason I want to say the person with more talent wins out.. but I'm not sure if thats just because the amount of value we place on talent in society

Talent is better because your life is easier. The most talented partner at my firm hardly studied at Harvard according to his classmates(finished 3rd in his class) and somehow manages to go home no later than 6pm every night.

NYSprague wrote:

flash21 wrote:

wingding wrote:I go with grit. Talent doesn't really learn to work for it, doesn't need to work for it, and becomes complacent about doing well without having to bust her ass. Grit has to fight for it every step of the way, and doesn't give up the fight just for having achieved his goals

Yeah I agree, but if people have comparable grit and talent levels, but one person has a bit more grit and the other person has a bit more talent, for some reason I want to say the person with more talent wins out.. but I'm not sure if thats just because the amount of value we place on talent in society

Talent is better because your life is easier. The most talented partner at my firm hardly studied at Harvard according to his classmates(finished 3rd in his class) and somehow manages to go home no later than 6pm every night.

I think talent may lead to an easier life, but grit leads to more success in life. Of course, this is assuming a fairly high baseline for both. Talent without grit or grit devoid of talent are both up shit's creek

Clyde Frog wrote:Just waiting for the natural 170+ scorers to come in and say that studying too hard for the lsat is not fair.

It's not unfair but it's kind of obnoxious.

NYSprague wrote:

flash21 wrote:

wingding wrote:I go with grit. Talent doesn't really learn to work for it, doesn't need to work for it, and becomes complacent about doing well without having to bust her ass. Grit has to fight for it every step of the way, and doesn't give up the fight just for having achieved his goals

Yeah I agree, but if people have comparable grit and talent levels, but one person has a bit more grit and the other person has a bit more talent, for some reason I want to say the person with more talent wins out.. but I'm not sure if thats just because the amount of value we place on talent in society

Talent is better because your life is easier. The most talented partner at my firm hardly studied at Harvard according to his classmates(finished 3rd in his class) and somehow manages to go home no later than 6pm every night.

Does an easier life necessarily lead to a happier life? For some, success out of mighty struggle is much more rewarding than easy success.

Imagine if you have the choice to live in an ideal dream forever without ever realizing that it is just a dream, where you can get anything you want simply by will. You would think this is a better choice than what it is now, right? But can we really fulfill ourselves in such an ideal world? There comes to a point where you would no longer appreciate success because you are so accustomed to achieving it.

Likewise, I presume that a lot of naturally gifted people who have things easy are not necessarily the most happiest ones. If almost everything came easy for them in terms of academic endeavor, would they really relish their moments of triumph?

I feel happiness is subjective to say the least. You can't judge happiness by level of professional success. Generally, the strivers I know are the ones who are never happy.

Not saying you shouldn't study hard if that is what you need to do well. Getting a high score is important.

hard work beats talent. in all aspects of life. well, not really, but that should be your mindset anyway.

NYSprague wrote:I feel happiness is subjective to say the least. You can't judge happiness by level of professional success. Generally, the strivers I know are the ones who are never happy.

Not saying you shouldn't study hard if that is what you need to do well. Getting a high score is important.

Perhaps some strivers would be even more miserable if they did felt like they havn't tried their best.

But there are definitely a sizable proportion of people who are content living a normal, stable life, free of ups and downs, highs and lows.

flash21 wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaeFnxSfSC4

enjoy! Talks about talent vs hardwork and how good of an indicator they are for success.

Playing devil's advocate here: She interviewed the super successful people and identified a common trait: namely grit.
Did a group of average achievers was analyzed for grit ? What if the average group had similar grit ?

Nassim Taleb criticized the book "The Millionaire Next Door" on similar grounds, quoted below.

"Stanley attempts to draw conclusions about ‘how to be millionaire’ based on surveys of millionaires. His first problem is that he’s only interviewing a sample of millionaire ‘winners,’ so we really cannot know how many people followed the same exact path but ended up ‘losers."

choward014 wrote:hard work beats talent. in all aspects of life. well, not really, but that should be your mindset anyway.

Exactly. Whether a lazy genius beats a hardworking moron in some hypothetical world isn't really worth pondering because you don't get to choose your talent level. If you want to be your best, you need to work as hard as you can. That's the only thing of practical value you can draw from this discussion.

RZ5646 wrote:

h3jk5h wrote:After watching the video, I'm intrigued to find out whether, in the long run, people who are exceptionally gritty but not the top in terms of natural talent can outperform those who are fairly gritty but are exceptionally talented.

For the sake of argument, let's say person A has a grittiness of 10/10 but natural talent of 8/10, compare him to person B who have a grittiness of 8/10 but natural talent of 10/10. Who will outperform who in the grand scheme of things, holding all other factors constant?

My brain tells me that person B has the advantage, since the person B has more potential than person A given higher natural abilities, and assuming that one can improve his grittiness. My heart tells me it's person A, because I'm not exceptionally talented.

So you're really comparing a G10/T8 against a G9-10/T10? Of course the latter would win then.

I don't think you could ever even approach an exact answer to the question though, since there aren't any solid definitions or measurements of talent, grit, or success.

All you can conclude is that we mortals need both to succeed, so we must work as hard as we can. Some people (like this presenter apparently) just have opportunities fall into their laps (aside: at the top levels of achievement, luck and connections are probably just as important as grit or talent), but the rest of us have to struggle to succeed, even if we are somewhat talented.

Personally I think I have more talent than grit (I know, most TLSers probably say that about themselves), and it frustrates me to no end. I'm doing well I guess, but I still waste many hours every day and I'm worried that I'm only accomplishing a tiny fraction of what I would if I were motivated, disciplined, focused, and organized. That old "you only use 10% of your brain" saying is true, if not neurologically then at least in spirit.

YES. Exactly that. I think that grit is more important than talent, generally speaking. But luck can outweigh them both.

I'm reading a book called Learned Optimism that touches on these issues. The author (psychologist Martin Seligman) also studied West Point cadets--along with Penn freshman, insurance agents, and elementary school kids--seeing how one's attitude and "explanatory style" affect one's outcome. In every group he studied, those who exceeded their "potential" as measured by the SAT or another test were mostly optimists, and those who fell short of their potential were pessimists.

So it seems like one's attitude has a significant effect on one's level of success. Though where "grit" ends and optimism begins, I'm not sure.