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So I don't work for Dave Hall, but I still want to give him a ringing indorse ent if you're having trouble with games. His logical reasoning is also great and the reason I originally got his program. But the games are revolutionary.

He uses a grid system which most other books crap on, but it's the only way to really use the system well. The order in which he chooses questions, using prior work to help you which everyone always talks about but never really explain. I just finished 4 basic ordering games in less than 35 minutes. I never finished games in time.

LR is really good too the way he breaks down flaws. I'm retaking in September and I'm thinking this thing is going to get me where I should be.

and just so people see the other side of the coin, here's jeffort's take on velocity lg:

Jeffort wrote:The logic games section, by definition, tests your skills with deductive logic.

To solve a game/its associated questions properly you have to make deductions since that is the main skill the section tests.

The mantra about not having to form deductions to answer the questions correctly is nonsense and is a marketing ploy to try and sell you a way that sounds easier. It's rubbish.

If you watch a few of the free DH logic game explanation videos (I don't suggest you do), he is forming deductions to solve the questions while also telling you not to make deductions. See the paradox anyone?

My take is that what he is advocating is to not spend a few minutes to make a thorough setup looking to form the major easy to determine available deductions before diving into the questions, but instead just jumping in and battling out the questions with brute force one by one. That is a typical TPR approach and not an efficient strategy for most LSAT logic games.

With most games, if you determine the major available deductions and create a decent setup before rushing into the questions, you can knock out the questions easily and quickly without having to write out a bunch of brute force hypotheticals.

as a 179 scorer and lsat tutor, i wholeheartedly agree
interested to hear from other tutors on this

Not sure about Jeffort's experience with Dave Hall, but I actually took an in-person class from TPR and he was my instructor. I remember pretty clearly that he showed us how to make inferences and deductions from the rules very often. He would have us diagram whole new rules based on inferences from the rules given in the problem.

I didn't watch the videos to which Jeffort is referring. Maybe he didn't do any deductions from those specific problems, but I remember him having us do them in class frequently.

moralsentiments wrote:Not sure about Jeffort's experience with Dave Hall, but I actually took an in-person class from TPR and he was my instructor. I remember pretty clearly that he showed us how to make inferences and deductions from the rules very often. He would have us diagram whole new rules based on inferences from the rules given in the problem.

I didn't watch the videos to which Jeffort is referring. Maybe he didn't do any deductions from those specific problems, but I remember him having us do them in class frequently.

Dave Hall:

"I don't believe I've ever made a deduction while working a game on an actual test. I wouldn't put any credence in a system that requires you to make deductions in games in order to be successful. You can learn to generate and process information visually, and then simply do the pencil work. My method isn't sexy - it's just brutally effective."

http://www.velocitylsat.com/faq/do-you- ... ling-games

try this instead. you will thoroughly learn lg with a wide range of materials, all while keeping PTs 41 and up virgin for PTs

weeks 1 and 2:
read the powerscore logic games bible slowly and thoroughly
do all the drills and exercises
after each chapter, complete the related chapter in cambridge lg by type vol 1
**powerscore name/cambridge name: linear/simple, advanced linear/complex, grouping+hybrid/grouping+in-out+assignment, forgotten few/misc**
do not time yourself, work deliberately
after any game you lose points on, redo that game
check 7sage video explanations if necessary, or ask for help on tls or the manhattan forums

weeks 3 and 4:
if you'd like more tools in your arsenal, read manhattan lsat lg guide, lsat trainer, or another reputable lg book
again, read thoroughly and complete all drills
then complete the related chapters in cambridge lg by type vol 2
do not time yourself, work deliberately
after any game you lose points on, redo that game
check 7sage video explanations if necessary, or ask for help on tls or the manhattan forums

week 5: manhattan lsat logic games challenge, read explanations on manhattan forums if needed
steve schwartz's logic games (explanations available on lsatblog)

week 6: strictly timed sections from:
june 2007 test
india 2, 3, 4 test
superpre a, b, c, tests
itemwise
strict 35 minutes, do these with bubble sheet
if you lose points on any game, wait two days and redo the game UNTIMED
then follow up with 7sage game explanations, manhattan forums, or post on tls

materials list:
powerscore logic games bible - 42 on kindle
cambridge lg by type vol 1 - 24 pdf
cambridge lg by type vol 2 - 30 pdf
manhattan lsat logic games challenge - free
7sage lg explanation videos - free
india 2, 3, 4 tests - free (--LinkRemoved--)
june 2007 test - free (lsac.org)
superprep - 16 (free with fee waiver)
itemwise - 18 (from lsac)
steve schwartz's games - free (http://lsatblog.blogspot.com/2011/06/fr ... nload.html)

total cost: $130
total cost without itemwise ($18 is a lot for one test): $112
total cost of velocity lg: $300
difference in cost with itemwise included: $170
$170 = 17 6-packs of beer

enjoy those beers fellas

if there's more interest, i'll make a thread and expand on the materials list/schedule i outlined above

Brut wrote:

moralsentiments wrote:Not sure about Jeffort's experience with Dave Hall, but I actually took an in-person class from TPR and he was my instructor. I remember pretty clearly that he showed us how to make inferences and deductions from the rules very often. He would have us diagram whole new rules based on inferences from the rules given in the problem.

I didn't watch the videos to which Jeffort is referring. Maybe he didn't do any deductions from those specific problems, but I remember him having us do them in class frequently.

Dave Hall:

"I don't believe I've ever made a deduction while working a game on an actual test. I wouldn't put any credence in a system that requires you to make deductions in games in order to be successful. You can learn to generate and process information visually, and then simply do the pencil work. My method isn't sexy - it's just brutally effective."

http://www.velocitylsat.com/faq/do-you- ... ling-games

I don't know what to tell you, we did them in class. If I'm misunderstanding what he was doing then so be it, but making new rules, and adjusting your diagrams as a result of how the given rules work with one another to create new constraints, etc. is absolutely something we did in class.

moralsentiments wrote:

Brut wrote:

moralsentiments wrote:Not sure about Jeffort's experience with Dave Hall, but I actually took an in-person class from TPR and he was my instructor. I remember pretty clearly that he showed us how to make inferences and deductions from the rules very often. He would have us diagram whole new rules based on inferences from the rules given in the problem.

I didn't watch the videos to which Jeffort is referring. Maybe he didn't do any deductions from those specific problems, but I remember him having us do them in class frequently.

Dave Hall:

"I don't believe I've ever made a deduction while working a game on an actual test. I wouldn't put any credence in a system that requires you to make deductions in games in order to be successful. You can learn to generate and process information visually, and then simply do the pencil work. My method isn't sexy - it's just brutally effective."

http://www.velocitylsat.com/faq/do-you- ... ling-games

I don't know what to tell you, we did them in class. If I'm misunderstanding what he was doing then so be it, but making new rules, and adjusting your diagrams as a result of how the given rules work with one another to create new constraints, etc. is absolutely something we did in class.

right, in the tpr class he taught
so either his velocity statement is true and he doesn't put any credence in his own system at tpr, which makes him a hypocrite
or his velocity statement is false (and it's actually a marketing gimmick as jeffort suggested) which also makes him a hypocrite

I've watched a few of the videos, and I like the way he does the games, but I find his on-camera personality absolutely insufferable and I can't imagine how anybody could watch more than a couple minutes at a time.

Brut wrote:try this instead. you will thoroughly learn lg with a wide range of materials, all while keeping PTs 41 and up virgin for PTs

weeks 1 and 2:
read the powerscore logic games bible slowly and thoroughly
do all the drills and exercises
after each chapter, complete the related chapter in cambridge lg by type vol 1
**powerscore name/cambridge name: linear/simple, advanced linear/complex, grouping+hybrid/grouping+in-out+assignment, forgotten few/misc**
do not time yourself, work deliberately
after any game you lose points on, redo that game
check 7sage video explanations if necessary, or ask for help on tls or the manhattan forums

weeks 3 and 4:
if you'd like more tools in your arsenal, read manhattan lsat lg guide, lsat trainer, or another reputable lg book
again, read thoroughly and complete all drills
then complete the related chapters in cambridge lg by type vol 2
do not time yourself, work deliberately
after any game you lose points on, redo that game
check 7sage video explanations if necessary, or ask for help on tls or the manhattan forums

week 5: manhattan lsat logic games challenge, read explanations on manhattan forums if needed
steve schwartz's logic games (explanations available on lsatblog)

week 6: strictly timed sections from:
june 2007 test
india 2, 3, 4 test
superpre a, b, c, tests
itemwise
strict 35 minutes, do these with bubble sheet
if you lose points on any game, wait two days and redo the game UNTIMED
then follow up with 7sage game explanations, manhattan forums, or post on tls

materials list:
powerscore logic games bible - 42 on kindle
cambridge lg by type vol 1 - 24 pdf
cambridge lg by type vol 2 - 30 pdf
manhattan lsat logic games challenge - free
7sage lg explanation videos - free
india 2, 3, 4 tests - free (--LinkRemoved--)
june 2007 test - free (lsac.org)
superprep - 16 (free with fee waiver)
itemwise - 18 (from lsac)
steve schwartz's games - free (http://lsatblog.blogspot.com/2011/06/fr ... nload.html)

total cost: $130
total cost without itemwise ($18 is a lot for one test): $112
total cost of velocity lg: $300
difference in cost with itemwise included: $170
$170 = 17 6-packs of beer

enjoy those beers fellas

Usually I would look at an lsat schedule and say in my head, "this guy is a f-ing idiot," but I actually really like this schedule. The only thing I would stress is to start paying more attention to the earlier games because the lsac seems to be steering towards the oddball (pattern, circular, mapping ect) games to throw test takers off. Nonetheless, this is an awesome schedule.

Brut wrote:

moralsentiments wrote:

Brut wrote:

moralsentiments wrote:Not sure about Jeffort's experience with Dave Hall, but I actually took an in-person class from TPR and he was my instructor. I remember pretty clearly that he showed us how to make inferences and deductions from the rules very often. He would have us diagram whole new rules based on inferences from the rules given in the problem.

I didn't watch the videos to which Jeffort is referring. Maybe he didn't do any deductions from those specific problems, but I remember him having us do them in class frequently.

Dave Hall:

"I don't believe I've ever made a deduction while working a game on an actual test. I wouldn't put any credence in a system that requires you to make deductions in games in order to be successful. You can learn to generate and process information visually, and then simply do the pencil work. My method isn't sexy - it's just brutally effective."

http://www.velocitylsat.com/faq/do-you- ... ling-games

I don't know what to tell you, we did them in class. If I'm misunderstanding what he was doing then so be it, but making new rules, and adjusting your diagrams as a result of how the given rules work with one another to create new constraints, etc. is absolutely something we did in class.

right, in the tpr class he taught
so either his velocity statement is true and he doesn't put any credence in his own system at tpr, which makes him a hypocrite
or his velocity statement is false (and it's actually a marketing gimmick as jeffort suggested) which also makes him a hypocrite

lol. touche

lieph82 wrote:I've watched a few of the videos, and I like the way he does the games, but I find his on-camera personality absolutely insufferable and I can't imagine how anybody could watch more than a couple minutes at a time.

That's how he is in class too. Lol, he's a nice guy but...yah

moralsentiments wrote:

lieph82 wrote:I've watched a few of the videos, and I like the way he does the games, but I find his on-camera personality absolutely insufferable and I can't imagine how anybody could watch more than a couple minutes at a time.

That's how he is in class too. Lol, he's a nice guy but...yah

I know what you guys mean, but he's pretty funny. In one video for games he actually says "holy fucking shit" I just burst out laughing of pure shock. Plus he emails you back personally. I just think it's a good program. A lot of this might be the videos rather than dry reading material. Who knows but I'm scoring.

Brut, your avatar is creepy and not at all funny.

AbhiJ wrote:Brut, your avatar is creepy and not at all funny.

i can tell that you've given this a lot of thought
thank you for sharing your feelings with me
i will give this matter the serious attention and consideration it deserves

Brut wrote:if there's more interest, i'll make a thread and expand on the materials list/schedule i outlined above

There is! I am dreading going back to LG after studying the Bible for two weeks without any progress; I feel completely hopeless. I will be following this schedule now, regardless, but a separate thread with more detailed explanation would be fantastic.

lieph82 wrote:I've watched a few of the videos, and I like the way he does the games, but I find his on-camera personality absolutely insufferable and I can't imagine how anybody could watch more than a couple minutes at a time.

his style reminds me of the shamwow/ slapchop infomercial guy

AbhiJ wrote:Brut, your avatar is creepy and not at all funny.

dude have u look at it high tho? Holy shit. amazing.

plus it's kinda entertaining even when not high