The "Guide", My Story of 145-170. Forum

[lawschool2014hopeful]

Congrats on your achievement. Your effort is inspiring. I hope you do well in law school, and given your work ethic, I know you'll do well as an attorney.

Thanks alot

I certainly hope so.

[Sid]

I'm not sure if my PMs are going through. They appear in outbox, but not sent messages. Maybe the forum won't let me send?

[Jeffort]

I'm not sure if my PMs are going through. They appear in outbox, but not sent messages. Maybe the forum won't let me send?

PMs stay in your outbox until the recipient opens it.

[lawschool2014hopeful]

I'm not sure if my PMs are going through. They appear in outbox, but not sent messages. Maybe the forum won't let me send?

PMs stay in your outbox until the recipient opens it.

Thanks Jeffort <3

I got the PMs.

But for future references, please do pm a short introduction of yourself if you want to request tutoring/mentoring, just pming me your skype name is not going to help me help you very much.

[zhenders]

Hey,

Really interesting read; it was great getting to see how you progressed through things and won out psychologically and actually; great stuff!

While I completely agree with your arguments on the whole with respect to having realistic expectations, I feel like it may in the end still be a bit too one-sided to make the argument that in most cases, 99th percentile is just unrealistic (I'm thinking of a particular line in the early part of your guide -- something along the lines of (paraphrasing) '99th percentile is 1/100 -- do you really think you're the 1?')

I take issue with this only because I think we must consider that there are sub-groups within these numbers that I think future test-takers should be considering; while having a healthy perspective is crucial, focusing overly on "99th percentile" is a bit of a fallacy.

I say this, because the sad reality -- as anyone who has just listened to the general banter before and after an LSAT administration knows -- is that a majority, and perhaps a supermajority, of the people at any given administration do little or no test preparation. These folks are not only a part of the sample used to calculate these percentiles -- they most probably are enormously disproportionately seated below the 50th%.

With that said, I think it would be an important distinction for ANY future taker to make to think about the sample as a whole (all takers), but only really consider what the numbers for the sample of test preppers is.

I think it would be completely reasonable to say, then, that 1/35 or 1/40 people who engage in serious prep are able to crack 170 any given administration -- a more conservative estimate would be 1/50.

Recognizing that a 1% chance and a 2.5% chance are both low, they are not equally so. I think it underscores the value of study, and points to the reality that while it may be incredibly difficult for anyone to crack 170 -- and more difficult for some -- regardless of how much prep they do, it is nearly impossible to crack 170 without prep.


Again, great guide in general -- I am only reticent in the sense that I think at times your candidness and realism in this guide toe the line of pessimism a bit.

[lawschool2014hopeful]

@Zhenders, an issue with your example is that you assume that effort is directly proportional to results with the LSAT. To say the average person that does nearly no prep is somehow in an inferior category is flawed. A significant portion of my high scoring friends are in that category. If you read through the old how to get 160+ thread, you will see a significant portion of people who score 170+ did probably 5-10 prep tests, which to me, is next to none studying.

Even going with your estimate, chance of scoring 173 is 1/40 or 1/50, it is still a very extremely unlikely number.

Studying helps, but how much it helps varies significantly from person to person. I am simply trying to stop the illusion that effort + time = 173 guaranteed.

[zhenders]

Friend, I am certainly not saying it was directly proportional; it isn't that at all. Gosh, if it were, we could all just put in our 300 hours and take home our 180's. Also, I would say that 5-10 preptests, even if it doesn't constitute significant study in comparison to what many of us do for this test, IS significant for the purposes of these groups.

Perhaps I should have been more specific: I would argue that a VERY large percentage of people go into the test either taking it basically as their diagnostic, OR, if they do any study at all, it is in the week leading up to the test (often, it's no more than doing the free LSAT on lsac.org untimed).

And look man, don't twist my words here. I'm not making a judgement about anyone -- I'm not calling one group "inferior" or "superior"; this is an issue of an apples to oranges fallacy, not rotten apples to fresh ones. I am simply saying that zero-prep/week-before preppers are a completely different group statistically than are testers who go in with some study or better (and I don't think it's unreasonable to say that no more than 1 out of every 10 people in any given LSAT administration has done 5+ preptests under timed conditions!)

I am not trying to shoot you down; far from it. I am simply trying to highlight the reality that fixating on "99th percentile" and conceps like "1 in 100 people" is far more discouraging and unhelpful than it is useful. And, regardless of whether or not the difference is enormous, if I were at the beginning of my prep, 1/40 would sound a HELL of a lot more encouraging than 1/100, while still representing adequately and honestly the real-world difficulty involved in achieving such a score.

[lawschool2014hopeful]

@Zhenders,

Okay, I see your point now (BTW I believe the average test taker takes 3 or 5 prep tests during the first test or something like that). Also, even though statistically there is a high proportion of people who dont study take the LSAT as their diagnostic and end up with super low scores, there are also very many that end up with very high scores. So an average score sub-group of people who dont study is not really a meaningful number, which you would presumably do better/not compare yourself with that group in terms of statistics.

Furthermore, later on I made it clear, that statistics in the end, is just statistics.

I suppose from my perspective, is better to be somewhat faced with the harsh reality at first, even ending up on the side of pessimism, than being overly-optimistic due to the many success stories of TLS, that when you fail, you blame yourself for being stupid, rather than just accepting it is just the norm.

For me, the feeling of being "I am stupid" when failing compared to the norm is far more discouraging than being told your chance of success is not high to begin with.
*There is actually statistical evidence backing up my reasons.

In very many empirically based studies, people have found to be significantly more discouraged/annoyed/embarrassed/frustrated in a working environment when the chance of promotion is high rather than low. The rationale was that, if you didnt get promoted, and a significant amount do, you blame yourself very harshly, and become unhappy with your work, resulting in deteriorating performance. Conversely, when you know the chance of promotion is not very high to begin with, you are not that discouraged at all when the promotion misses you, because that is the norm.

[zhenders]

I understand, and I both agree and totally appreciate where you're coming from there -- your approach is far, far healthier than general TLS wisdom. I suppose like all things, there's just a balance to be struck thanks again for the guide; I'm sure it will be very helpful for a great many takers.

[lawschool2014hopeful]

I understand, and I both agree and totally appreciate where you're coming from there -- your approach is far, far healthier than general TLS wisdom. I suppose like all things, there's just a balance to be struck thanks again for the guide; I'm sure it will be very helpful for a great many takers.

Thanks alot <3. There is always a fine balance of things in life.

I hope my responses dont come off as aggressive.

[Sid]

I'm not sure if my PMs are going through. They appear in outbox, but not sent messages. Maybe the forum won't let me send?

PMs stay in your outbox until the recipient opens it.

oh. That's unusual. On the other forums I've used, they appear in sent messages as soon as they're sent.

[lawschool2014hopeful]

2 updates

1) No longer additional mentoring requests (currently have 3 students)
2) Posed a question in the OP:

If I wrote a comprehensive guide to studying the LSAT, like the specific strategies/drills I used, ways of comprehending/interpreting questions, would you read it? I would imagine this would be quite the tome, perhaps 100 pages (it would be more like 300 pages in a regular book, but I wont/cant copy LSAT questions directly so I will reference the test/section/question #). I would publish it as a book of some sort.

Would you after reading both guides be interested in hiring me as a tutor? I am looking to take few students over the summer (less than 5), and maybe 1 or 2 throughout my LS years. I havent exactly thought out the payments, but it wont be anything close to the $100/hour market rate.

[Tyr]

I read the whole thing and I had three primary takeaway points:

1. Whether you look at this as demotivating or motivating - it is up to you. Personally, I look at this story/guide as motivating. It tells me that someone, whom the LSAT does not come naturally, was able to achieve a certain level of success that few experience.

2. Know yourself. If you need a course, take it. If you can study on your own, do it. This is entirely dependent upon each individual case.

3. Repetition + Review + Repetition + Review + Repetition + Review + Repetition + Review + Repetition + Review + Repetition + Review + Repetition + Review + Repetition + Review + Repetition + Review + Repetition + Review + Repetition + Review = Genuine potential for success.

I really enjoyed your story/guide. Thank you!

[lawschool2014hopeful]

I read the whole thing and I had three primary takeaway points:

1. Whether you look at this as demotivating or motivating - it is up to you. Personally, I look at this story/guide as motivating. It tells me that someone, whom the LSAT does not come naturally, was able to achieve a certain level of success that few experience.

2. Know yourself. If you need a course, take it. If you can study on your own, do it. This is entirely dependent upon each individual case.

3. Repetition + Review + Repetition + Review + Repetition + Review + Repetition + Review + Repetition + Review + Repetition + Review + Repetition + Review + Repetition + Review + Repetition + Review + Repetition + Review + Repetition + Review = Genuine potential for success.

I really enjoyed your story/guide. Thank you!

Great, thank you.

I think you took away the most important points!

[AbhiJ]

Read the guide. The ones who are saying its demotivating are either living in Disneyland or are 170 scorers to begin with. The facts missing from the guide are the takeaways and finer details. For example TLS1776 posts are a perfect example on how to do that concisely.

[Louis1127]

Question for you all:


If I wrote a comprehensive guide to studying the LSAT, like the specific strategies/drills I used, ways of comprehending/interpreting questions, would you read it? I would imagine this would be quite the tome, perhaps 100 pages (it would be more like 300 pages in a regular book, but I wont/cant copy LSAT questions directly so I will reference the test/section/question #). I would publish it as a book of some sort.

*googles "tome"*

answer: yes

[A.Taarabt7]

OP knows his stuff. The person is an LSAT expert. Whenever that book comes out, I'll be the first to read it.

[lawschool2014hopeful]

OP knows his stuff. The person is an LSAT expert. Whenever that book comes out, I'll be the first to read it.

*googles "tome"*

answer: yes

Thanks guys. If I receive few more responses I will start writing it. I certainly hope at the end of all this someone will end up hiring me!

[iiibbystar]

Hey!

I just wanted to say thanks for the guide! It's so refreshing to see a realistic perspective on the LSAT journey. When do you plan on tutoring?

[lawschool2014hopeful]

Hey!

I just wanted to say thanks for the guide! It's so refreshing to see a realistic perspective on the LSAT journey. When do you plan on tutoring?

Soon.

I have officially started writing this study/strategy guide.

Hopefully it turns out interesting/informative.

[lawschool2014hopeful]

I just officially purchased http://lsatconqueror.com/

and Im currently 1/3 finished of the raw writing.

I should have something up within the next weeks.